Assess this recent in-the-news defensive shooting incident (Houston)

[Blue Jays]

"…And they added that saying he was still afraid of the robber wouldn't hold water because after he picked up the robber's gun he turned his back to him and walked away to put the (fake) gun down before coming back for the final shot…"

Uncertain of what video the family of the deceased robber are watching. At no point was the (fake) gun put down to return for final shot. Those activists are not being truthful when doing interviews with the media.

It is "all on tape" as they say.

 

[jmorris]

I'm going to open this thread back up with the provision that comments are restricted to the the tactical and legal aspects of this case. Anyone who comments on if it was right or moral will get 5 days off to think about the rules in this subforum.

I had a sigh of relief when it got locked but still morbidly curious. Seems like it’s a circular firing squad of a thread. How do the “definitely murder” folks reconcile the event when the grand jury no bills the case?

 

[Jeff White]

How do the “definitely murder” folks reconcile the event when the grand jury no bills the case?

There is nothing to reconcile. You can’t predict what a grand jury or jury might do. There are a lot of emotional factors in play just like in this thread.

 

[JohnKSa]

Juries have a lot of leeway. That's why we have them instead of only judges who are supposed to be strictly bound by the law. A jury can find a person not guilty even if the facts of the case say otherwise. A grand jury can no bill someone even if the facts of the case say a crime was committed. The difference is that if a jury finds a person non guilty they can't be tried again while the DA can always try again with the grand jury--or with a new grand jury when the next one is seated.

Again. We are NOT trying to exonerate this guy, nobody here is his defense attorney. We are learning lessons from what he did. It doesn't make sense to bet everything you have, including your freedom on whether or not a jury/grand jury sympathizes with you. Stick with following the law and you're in a much better position to avoid prison than hoping you can play on the emotions of some strangers.

 

[jmorris]

A grand jury can no bill someone even if the facts of the case say a crime was committed.

And that’s a wait and see vs a certainty, why I figured the thread was locked.

As far as tactics, I found the throwing the money on the floor interesting and if the dead guy was actually armed and ready to shoot, somewhat risky.

 

[The Night Rider]

So now some activists are complaining about the shooting, and they are doing it very cleverly. They start by saying the robber was commiting a crime and the erstwhile defender was justified with his first shots, but then continue by saying he was not justified with his later shots, and especially not with the last one. And they added that saying he was still afraid of the robber wouldn't hold water because after he picked up the robber's gun he turned his back to him and walked away to put the (fake) gun down before coming back for the final shot, IOW you don't turn your back to someone you fear is still a threat.

I mean, it sounds to me like they're making the same arguments we are

 

[Blue Jays]

"…As far as tactics, I found the throwing the money on the floor interesting and if the dead guy was actually armed and ready to shoot, somewhat risky…"

That is indeed a tough judgement call. Potentially enrage robber by throwing money to the ground? Equally risky is handing money over and having a hopped-up robber (finger undoubtedly on trigger) grabbing money with a sympathetic muscle squeeze? Perhaps toss the entire wallet rather than just bills? Hard to say.

 

[aaaaa]

And that’s a wait and see vs a certainty, why I figured the thread was locked.

As far as tactics, I found the throwing the money on the floor interesting and if the dead guy was actually armed and ready to shoot, somewhat risky.

I guess people do odd and unpredictable things when stricken with fear, like when they got on the floor under the table.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

I had a sigh of relief when it got locked but still morbidly curious. Seems like it’s a circular firing squad of a thread. How do the “definitely murder” folks reconcile the event when the grand jury no bills the case?

Although this forum doesn't allow actual free speech, if seeing discussion shut down gives one a sigh of relief, what does that suggest? I'd like to see everyone's viewpoint as to the armed hero's actions, even though they were exemplary. Always more to learn and stopping discourse doesn't further that.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

I mean, it sounds to me like they're making the same arguments we are

Some of the commenters here, yes. It is not a good sign.

 

[JohnKSa]

What it demonstrates is that an understanding of the law can help one make good decisions. Remember, (can't believe no one has pointed this out yet) we're not here to exonerate this guy--nobody here is his defense attorney--we are here to learn lessons from what he did so we can emulate him where he excelled or do better where he had issues. The fact that things appear to be playing out the way a reasonable interpretation of the law suggested they would is actually an encouraging thing. It means that we can plan strategies and tactics based on a reasonable interpretation of the law and have confidence that our resulting actions won't get us in trouble with the courts.

 

[unclenunzie]

Here are my personal takeaways from this incident:

1) If you are going to carry, be mentally prepared should you face an unavoidable deadly threat.
2) Keep your weapon accessible and ready (the shooter's "fidgiting" is probably chambering a round as an example of not ready).
3) Reacting in anger is to be avoided if this is possible.
4) Seek competent counsel immediately following any such incident.
5) Be prepared to handle and live with the consequences.

 

[Kleanbore]

How do the “definitely murder” folks reconcile the event when the grand jury no bills the case?

Same thing as persons who see manslaughter.

As Attorneys Branca and Gosney have explained, there is the legal question, and the political reality.

That's true in every case these days.

 

[Jeff White]

Although this forum doesn't allow actual free speech, if seeing discussion shut down gives one a sigh of relief, what does that suggest? I'd like to see everyone's viewpoint as to the armed hero's actions, even though they were exemplary. Always more to learn and stopping discourse doesn't further that.

I suggest you read this thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/a-few-thoughts-on-posting-in-st-t.891634/

And the other threads stuck to the top of the page so you can understand the purpose of this forum and the rules here.

 

[The Night Rider]

Keep your weapon accessible and ready (the shooter's "fidgiting" is probably chambering a round as an example of not ready).

It wouldn't have mattered in this case because the robber's gun wasn't real but I can't imagine somebody standing right next to his table and hearing him chamber a round and not knowing what they were hearing.

 

[The Night Rider]

How do the “definitely murder” folks reconcile the event when the grand jury no bills the case?

Have you not been reading the comments about The Grand Jury in this discussion?

Let's assume for a second that there was absolutely no question and this case was murder.

Let's say the customer put the robber on his knees and shot him in the back of the head after disarming him. No question that's murder.

It is within the authority of The Grand Jury in the state of Texas to look at that evidence and still refuse to indict.

The prosecuting attorney could wait until another Grand Jury is Seated and try it again but he can't prosecute if the Grand Jury refuses to indict.

So, this incident could absolutely be murder and the guy could still get No Billed.

 

[The Night Rider]

Although this forum doesn't allow actual free speech.

This form is private property they don't have to allow free speech.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…but I can't imagine somebody standing right next to his table and hearing him chamber a round and not knowing what they were hearing…"

I have been wondering if he was genuinely chambering a round, otherwise adjusting his shooting grip, or perhaps clicking off a safety? It is difficult for me to ascertain clearly from the footage.

 

[Blue Jays]

The dining patron in the light blue knitted hat also seems to have reached some sort of "dead end" in the building architecture while fleeing…or perhaps had some psychological barrier to crossing through an employees only section. Uncertain why he or she opted to stop there instead of continuing to run away?

 

[aaaaa]

Here are my personal takeaways from this incident:

1) If you are going to carry, be mentally prepared should you face an unavoidable deadly threat.
2) Keep your weapon accessible and ready (the shooter's "fidgiting" is probably chambering a round as an example of not ready).
3) Reacting in anger is to be avoided if this is possible.
4) Seek competent counsel immediately following any such incident.
5) Be prepared to handle and live with the consequences.

6) Do not flee the scene if the threat has been eliminated (and call 911 ASAP). Even though the natural fear and freaked-out-over-what-just-happened reaction may be to run away.

 

[The Night Rider]

The dining patron in the light blue knitted hat also seems to have reached some sort of "dead end" in the building architecture while fleeing…or perhaps had some psychological barrier to crossing through an employees only section. Uncertain why he or she opted to stop there instead of continuing to run away?

Because that's how their brain was wired to work. They have been repetitively taught in their lives over and over and over again that you don't go through the employees only entrance.

I used to do security for a mental hospital and there had to be one guard on the ambulance door at all times. To open it in case an ambulance showed up but to keep the crazies from running out.

Several employees parked right outside the ambulance door and the guards would let them use that door. I certainly had no problem letting them in or out through it . But I would open the door for them and they would still stop and ask if it was okay because the sign on the door said "Ambulance Only".

 

[aaaaa]

Because that's how their brain was wired to work. They have been repetitively taught in their lives over and over and over again that you don't go through the employees only entrance.

Not me. I'll just become a volunteer kitchen manager, thereby authorized to enter, and will manage my way either to cover or an outside door.

 

[The Night Rider]

Not me.

Yes you,

 

[old lady new shooter]

Uncertain of what video the family of the deceased robber are watching. At no point was the (fake) gun put down to return for final shot. Those activists are not being truthful when doing interviews with the media.

It is "all on tape" as they say.

I just rewatched it and also saw that he backed away from the robber after the robber was down, he did not turn his back on him as the activist alleged.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I mean, it sounds to me like they're making the same arguments we are

More importantly, the same arguments made by Branca as well as respected pro-gun outlets.