Assess this recent in-the-news defensive shooting incident (Houston)

[The Night Rider]

More importantly, the same arguments made by Branca as well as respected pro-gun outlets.

Branca talks, people listen
Night Rider talks, not so much

 

[old lady new shooter]

Branca talks, people listen
Night Rider talks, not so much

On the off-chance you felt I was deprecating your contribution here, I was not, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I meant was more along the lines of Branca being widely watched and probably quoted by MSM types, folks here obviously not so.

 

[The Night Rider]

What I meant was more along the lines of Branca being widely watched and probably quoted by MSM types, folks here obviously not so.

That's what I meant too. I didn't feel depreciated in the least by your statement

 

[old lady new shooter]

That's what I meant too. I didn't feel depreciated in the least by your statement

 

[hso]

The Full video shows us what not to do. When the armed robber went down the diner should have stopped firing and certainly not walked up to the threat.

 

[aaaaa]

The Full video shows us what not to do. When the armed robber went down the diner should have stopped firing and certainly not walked up to the threat.

Basically, but perhaps walking up to move the gun away from the BG is a good idea?

 

[hso]

move the gun a

Nope

Stay back

Stay vigilant

Move to a safer position to cover the threat until others can exit the area and then withdraw.

 

[Scrapiron45]

For me using having to use deadly force in a life threatening situation in a home invasion or personal attack would obviously be a last resort but I'd be confident in my abilities. My question to the more common contributors, especially those with law enforcement backgrounds, would you, as a private citizen have shot the bad guy (excepting the last shot) in this situation like the diner did or would you wait until he made a more specific threat? Possibly pulled your weapon and stayed at low ready thinking he might walk out? I believe it would much harder to make this decision in a diner type situation than in a direct, life threatening confrontation.

 

[citizenconn]

What started as justified may have escalated to excessive

Link to video
https://twitter.com/i/status/1611808197316075521

I work in Houston and the robbing is out of control. Shootings in general as well as self defense shootings are spiking, so that is definitely affecting the atmosphere here.

I am reminded of a shooting a few months ago where an angry soon to be ex-husband leaves the restaurant, goes to his car, then re-enters and starts shooting up the place trying to kill his soon to be ex-wife and the new beau she brought with her. Who could have predicted he would come back in and start shooting?

We can only speculate what this shooter has planned. Was he leaving or was he intent on doing something else? I cannot fault the man for shooting him. Its easy to armchair quarterback here with no adrenaline rush, but unless you've been in that type of potential life or death situation you have no idea what you would really do.

Were the last two or three, especially the last, shot excessive? It looks so to me from the comfort and safety of my computer. Would I vote to convict the defender? No I would not. The robber dealt the play when he decided to rob the place. He has to live, or die, with the consequences.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Was he leaving or was he intent on doing something else?

We can see him redirect the pistol slightly left to the patron sitting by the door as he's walking, so he wasn't simply leaving and was unfortunately still a threat.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

or would you wait until he made a more specific threat?

Once he's got his gun out, robbing the place, he's a threat to everyone in there so the specifics can change from each split second to the next. Waiting to act is giving the initiative back to the criminal, if you have the ability to act. I'd say that it was a direct, life threatening confrontation as you mentioned in your last sentence since he went around with his gun from one person to the next.

 

[Jeff White]

My question to the more common contributors, especially those with law enforcement backgrounds, would you, as a private citizen have shot the bad guy (excepting the last shot) in this situation like the diner did or would you wait until he made a more specific threat?

I would have waited until it was obvious he was about to shoot someone. There is a new trend in law enforcement training now. Calibre Press, the Street Survival people are running a class called, It was justified, but was it necessary? I think a private citizen should really think about if it's necessary to shoot to resolve the situation. Despite the usual rhetoric you find on gun forums and what some trainers teach, use of deadly force will change your your life and it might never be the same. The hard part of making this decision is only the person who is in that position can make that decision and there isn't a checklist you can check off when making that decision. That decision will be yours and yours alone and everyone will second guess you, but you will have to live with it for the rest of your life.

Waiting to act is giving the initiative back to the criminal, if you have the ability to act. I'd say that it was a direct, life threatening confrontation as you mentioned in your last sentence since he went around with his gun from one person to the next.

Despite the narrative the media pushes to get viewers and despite the internet gun forum experts (most of whom haven't been in a fight since the third grade) armed robberies that end with the armed robber shooting people are still the exception not the rule. There are absolutely predators out there who would think nothing of killing, most criminals aren't killers. The are more likely to kill a fellow criminal than they are a "civilian". They want to get themoney and leave and they know that the effort expended to bring them to justice will be much greater if they kill someone. So again; justified doesn't mean it was necessary.

 

[The Night Rider]

My opinion from the beginning has been the shooter went too far.

It's been said in this discussion and in countless others throughout cyberspace but if you pull that trigger life as you know it has ended.

I wouldn't shoot until I believe I had absolutely no other choice.

 

[wayneinFL]

"When the armed robber went down the diner should have stopped firing and certainly not walked up to the threat."

Yeah, but how else are you supposed to get your money back from the robber if you're going to flee the scene before the police arrive?

 

[citizenconn]

"When the armed robber went down the diner should have stopped firing and certainly not walked up to the threat."

Yeah, but how else are you supposed to get your money back from the robber if you're going to flee the scene before the police arrive?

I'm not taking up for the shooter, but I think most of us on this site are viewing this shooting through the lens of a shared culture for the most part. I've been here in Houston almost 20 years now and there are many cultures coexisting, sometimes not very well, on top of one another here. I've learned that what I would consider prudent to do in a situation, such as not leaving the scene after shooting someone, is not the same thing as someone else from another culture considers prudent.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Who could have predicted he would come back in and start shooting?

This is a good question, because the answer to this is that SOME of us COULD have predicted this, at least as a serious possibility.

I know if there were any kind of attention that drew my eyes and ears to a relationship problem, I would have been more alert to the possibility.

Which means there are lessons for all of us in each of these encounters, if we only look for them.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Another side note guys. If possible, I wouldn't recommend leaving your fate up to the theoretical goodwill of a criminal who is using a weapon. Regrettably this site doesn't allow for open, honest discussion of some factors which greatly contribute to what tactic you choose to employ if you're the victim of a robbery like we're dealing with here. Criminals are changing their strategies and the moral of the story is do what's right to ensure your safety.

 

[Jeff White]

Another side note guys. If possible, I wouldn't recommend leaving your fate up to the theoretical goodwill of a criminal who is using a weapon. Regrettably this site doesn't allow for open, honest discussion of some factors which greatly contribute to what tactic you choose to employ if you're the victim of a robbery like we're dealing with here. Criminals are changing their strategies and the moral of the story is do what's right to ensure your safety.

Have you ever been in a fight? Are you a combat veteran? It’s very easy for someone for whom this is a hypothetical situation and has never had to face it in real life to espouse a “kill ‘em all, let God sort em out attitude” online. It’s also very stupid. Obviously you didn’t take my advice and read the threads at the top of the page, if you had, you would understand that besides the fact that that conversation doesn’t contribute much to a discussion; anyone can say “shoot the b********”. There is also a very important reason that we spell out in the threads you either didn’t read or don’t care about. That reason is if you are ever unfortunate enough to have to use deadly force there will be a thorough investigation and they will find everything you ever posted online. You are not anonymous online. And when they find those posts they will influence charging decisions and if your charged, or sued civilly you can look forward to hearing your words read to the jury.

So if there is doubt as to if your use of deadly force was justified you probably don’t want a record of you publicly saying things that are going to make it seem like you were looking for a reason to shoot someone.

I wish it was 30 years ago when a person could say things about violence and not have people take that as a direct threat to someone, but it’s not. It’s that simple. If you don’t like the rules here I am going to suggest you go to Arfcom or Warrior Talk where those posts are not only allowed but encouraged.

 

[Blue Jays]

Another audio/video/technology challenge is we do not precisely know what the robber was muttering to the frightened innocent patrons. Depending on what he said, it may have very well inspired the shooting response.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Another audio/video/technology challenge is we do not precisely know what the robber was muttering to the frightened innocent patrons. Depending on what he said, it may have very well inspired the shooting response.

That's an excellent point. These types of criminals love issuing death threats as they perpetrate their crimes, and sometimes they follow through on said threats.

 

[chicharrones]

Another audio/video/technology challenge is we do not precisely know what the robber was muttering to the frightened innocent patrons. Depending on what he said, it may have very well inspired the shooting response.

11:30pm in that part of town in a Taqueria? My guess is the robber was giving demands in English to a bunch of primarily Spanish speakers and they all understood "gun".

 

[chicharrones]

That's an excellent point. These types of criminals love issuing death threats as they perpetrate their crimes, and sometimes they follow through on said threats.

If you've ever had a someone point a gun at you (like in that video), you'd know that the gun is the death threat.

 

[Jeff White]

That's an excellent point. These types of criminals love issuing death threats as they perpetrate their crimes, and sometimes they follow through on said threats.

How many of “these types of criminals” do you know?

 

[Elkins45]

Complex situations call for complex answers. I think those follow up shots (especially the last) were excessive and therefore in violation of the law. But if you put me on that man’s jury I wouldn’t vote to convict. He did one bad act while overcome by adrenaline just after potentially saving the lives of a number of people and I think he should get a pass regardless of the illegality of his act. If the first eight shots were OK then I think he can be forgiven the ninth.

A guy rushing across the street to stop a runaway baby carriage from rolling into traffic is probably guilty of jaywalking. I wouldn’t vote to convict that guy either. <<<—- Yes, I know it’s not a great analogy in terms of severity but it conveys the point.

 

[The Night Rider]

I think he should get a pass regardless of the illegality of his act.

That's really dangerous Way To Think