Assess this recent in-the-news defensive shooting incident (Houston)

[rabid wombat]

Odds are he won't be prosecuted for it now either

Yeppers….the chance of recidivism is way down…

 

[old lady new shooter]

Point of information please:

A friend sent me an article (https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=63540) which includes the following statement:

"The hero customer who shot and killed an armed robber at a Houston taco joint last week has been ordered to face a grand jury by District Attorney Kim Ogg, the Soros-funded prosecutor who appears to have let the career criminal he put down out on bond."​

Can anyone here definitively tell me whether in fact
a) the District Attorney is who decides to send a case to a grand jury; and
b) the District Attorney is who decides to release a criminal on bond?

 

[The Night Rider]

Point of information please:

A friend sent me an article (https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=63540) which includes the following statement:

"The hero customer who shot and killed an armed robber at a Houston taco joint last week has been ordered to face a grand jury by District Attorney Kim Ogg, the Soros-funded prosecutor who appears to have let the career criminal he put down out on bond."​

Can anyone here definitively tell me whether in fact
a) the District Attorney is who decides to send a case to a grand jury; and
b) the District Attorney is who decides to release a criminal on bond?

All homicides in Texas go to a grand jury

 

[old lady new shooter]

All homicides in Texas go to a grand jury

Thanks, that answers part a).

 

[Elkins45]

Point of information please:

A friend sent me an article (https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=63540) which includes the following statement:

"The hero customer who shot and killed an armed robber at a Houston taco joint last week has been ordered to face a grand jury by District Attorney Kim Ogg, the Soros-funded prosecutor who appears to have let the career criminal he put down out on bond."​

Can anyone here definitively tell me whether in fact
a) the District Attorney is who decides to send a case to a grand jury; and
b) the District Attorney is who decides to release a criminal on bond?

When a website calls itself “information liberation” I don’t have to click to know it’s a fringe advocacy or rage bait site of some sort.

 

[old lady new shooter]

When a website calls itself “information liberation” I don’t have to click to know it’s a fringe advocacy or rage bait site of some sort.

It's not a site I've ever visited in the past or plan to visit again.

I would still like an answer to question b).

 

[MEHavey]

Can anyone here definitively tell me whether in fact
a) the District Attorney is who decides to send a case to a grand jury;

All Texas homicides go to the Grand Jury

b) the District Attorney is who decides to release a criminal on bond?

The magistrate or judge is the decision-maker
https://www.dunhamlaw.com/tx/texas-bail-bond-laws/

.

 

[Jeff White]

It's not a site I've ever visited in the past or plan to visit again.

I would still like an answer to question b).

I don’t know about Texas, but the judge sets bail here. The prosecution recommends an amount the defense usually asks for a lower amount or no bail. The judge decides.

 

[Goosey]

He first shot him four times in the back, as he walked past him. Justified. Robber falls down, little motion.

He shoots again. Then as he walks towards him, twice more. First, second, maybe even third could be justified.

He's now standing over him, and shoots yet again, at the motionless robber's head. Not justified.

Then he takes the robber's gun, and shoots him in the head again. Definitely not justified.

Title asks me to assess it, I would say this man does not have adequate control of himself and is not fit to carry a gun. Assuming the initial few shots did not kill the robber, it is a murder. There is no excuse for delivering multiple headshots to the motionless robber as he stands over him.

 

[old lady new shooter]

All Texas homicides go to the Grand Jury

The magistrate or judge is the decision-maker
https://www.dunhamlaw.com/tx/texas-bail-bond-laws/

.

I don’t know about Texas, but the judge sets bail here. The prosecution recommends an amount the defense usually asks for a lower amount or no bail. The judge decides.

Thanks. So however disgusting the DA may be, she is not the person responsible for BG being out on bond.

The whole reason I posted the quote was that it seemed very tendentious.

 

[Jeff White]

Thanks. So however disgusting the DA may be, she is not the person responsible for BG being out on bond.

The whole reason I posted the quote was that it seemed very tendentious.

If she recommended recog, I doubt the defense would object and in my experience the judge usually goes along with that.

 

[bdickens]

Understand that this "Soros funded prosecutor" is there not because Ms. Ogg is much of a representation of Harris County's residents but because she got swept in when Republicans stayed home in droves angry about RINO John Culberson. He lost his seat quite deservedly but there was a lot of collateral damage.

 

[old lady new shooter]

If she recommended recog, I doubt the defense would object and in my experience the judge usually goes along with that.

Oh, so then she could be responsible, just not the person who signed the order.

 

[Jeff White]

Oh, so then she could be responsible, just not the person who signed the order.

Yes.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Guys were getting off on a legal tangent, let's keep it on the topic of the forum, I'm just wondering why mods aren't paying more attention to this big thread. Back on topic, I think our medal-deserving citizen wanted to confront the suspect when he was towards the back of the store, terrorizing the people on the floor, but was struggling with drawing his sidearm. I think its a great time to reflect on the reality of how clothing, posture and many other things can affect the process of drawing a firearm when time is at a premium.

 

[JDeere]

Understand that this "Soros funded prosecutor" is there not because Ms. Ogg is much of a representation of Harris County's residents but because she got swept in when Republicans stayed home in droves angry about RINO John Culberson. He lost his seat quite deservedly but there was a lot of collateral damage.

Lina was a product of this big time along with straight ticket voting...

 

[Kleanbore]

A Slippery Slope

In the incident we have been discussing, a violent criminal with a record robbed persons in a business establishment. An armed citizen lawfully drew and fired--and fired again unlawfully. The discussion is reminiscent of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. Some see the badness of the bad guy and do not believe the issues with what brought about his end to be important--to them, the end justifies the means. Others see it differently.

From the legal standpoint, we have sufficient evidence to conclude that, while the shooter's initial actions were consistent with lawful use of deadly force in this country, the man clearly used more force than was necessary, and that would destroy a legal defense of self defense, a legal defense of others, or a legal defense of tangible or moveable property.

However, in our criminal justice system, political considerations sometimes outweigh the legal analysis. Some people hold the shooter to be a hero, regardless of how he acted. Others contend the robber's record to be relevant. Some have even decried that it cannot properly by introduced in court. They would, figuratively speaking, put their fingers on the scales of justice to tip the result to match their emotional beliefs.

We cannot predict what will happen now. The bad guy is dead. The shooter effected that result. To some, it is not important that he acted unlawfully--the end justifies the means.

There's one problem with that: where do we draw the line? Think about it. This is the essence of the difference between a government of laws and a government of men.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I feel that the laws in question have been perverted.
The murderous career criminal is treated leniently, no matter what laws that he breaks and how many people are harmed.
The shooter is very unlikely to see such leniency... .

 

[Kleanbore]

I feel that the laws in question have been perverted.
The murderous career criminal is treated leniently, no matter what laws that he breaks and how many people are harmed.

If you are saying that violent criminals are sometimes not brough to jusice, you are right--but thta is not the topic here.

The shooter is very unlikely to see such leniency... .

What "leniency" should he be afforded?

 

[theotherwaldo]

I don't think that either party should be treated leniently, but only one of them would be... .

 

[GEM]

A nice analysis by Kleanbore. If folks are interested in this and want a scholarly read:

Payback: The Case for Revenge Kindle Edition
by Thane Rosenbaum (Author) Format: Kindle Edition

Killing in Self-Defence (Oxford Monographs on Criminal Law and Justice)
Part of: Oxford Monographs on Criminal Law and Justice (52 books) | by Fiona Leverick | Feb 8, 2007

These are a touch dense but for moving beyond System I emotionally driven, kill 'em all attaboys!

The main issue being a justice society with rules of law and society trusts the goverment to be the user of force to extract justice, either preventative or punitive. Self-defense is legit to stop an attack but not to punish. If folks feel that the government does not provide this we can slip into a vengenance society where personal or nongovernmental violence is the preferred manner. This leads to cycles of violence between citizens, families, tribes, etc.

What makes you the arbitor of someone's life for some offense outside of the rule of law? You act to protect yourself and yours. Not to decide their punishment. Part of this debate is a core issue of using lethal force to defend property. Most western jurisprudence does not look favorably on lethal force purely to protect property. Yes, TX has a convoluted formula that is atypical, so don't spout a cliche. Most use of force to protect property laws or debates centered on whether the loss of property was truly life threatening at the time, not a simple financial outcome in the future.

It's not like this has not been discussed in legal and moral philosophy before.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

My $.02
1. Big Brother IS watching YOU. Unless you are the Invisible Kid of DC Comics or the lead character in the Twilight Zone episode "The Four of Us Are Dying" you WILL be recorded and you WILL be recognized.
2. The shooting stops once the threat is neutralized. Yes, I know, there's something very satisfying about the "be sure", the coup de grace-cf. the subway shooting scene in "Death Wish" (1974) but that's not how Real Life goes. It's OK for soldiers to shoot an enemy in the back, have a kill team, but not for civilians.

 

[luzyfuerza]

@Kleanbore , excellent summary of the facts in this case.

But the question is not as simplistic as whether logical "law" or emotional "men" will prevail.

Rather, our justice system provides hold points where minds with competing priorities and backgrounds each consider reasonableness. The actors in the event, police, defense counsel, prosecutors, grand jurors, judges, witnesses, experts, trial jurors, and others all participate.

There is no legalistic "line" to be drawn between law and man. Guilt is established only if many minds, on balance, believe the facts and circumstances prove it beyond "reasonable" doubt.

The discussions in threads like this one mirror those that happen in the justice system. I find it remarkable that the perspectives, backgrounds, and roles of those who participate here are similar to those in the real game. We look for a balance here, too, just like in the real system.

The tough situations like this one take more time to approach balance. This time allows for a broader range of perspectives to emerge. For stubborn minds to re-examine their assumptions. And for those who don't understand to learn.

This is why I think that what we do here is worthwhile, whether we participate or just lurk.

 

[theotherwaldo]

My problem is that the finishing shots on the robber would matter in court, but similar finishing shots by a robber on a victim probably would not.
Both participants would be in the wrong.
Only one is likely to see punishment for the act in the current courts.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Lina was a product of this big time along with straight ticket voting...

Lina?