ATF agents showed up at my house?
- Thread starter alpha6164
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Scorpiusdeus
member
When you have to make this huge an assumption to make your case, you've already lost.
You are implying something that has never been proven.
I have no problem if this wants to get a lawyer before he speaks with the ATF, but I really don't think it's necessary before he knows what it's about. If the first few questions he's asked cause him concern, than by all means he should get a lawyer, but to assume the government is out to get you and that they are all racists is nothing more than paranoia.
I recently had a run in with the IRS, the case resolved in my favor with NO ATTORNEY NEEDED. If there was ever an agency that scares me it's them.
I've dealt with the IRS, FBI, DEA, USSS, and CIA. At no time did I fear for my freedom or feel I was bing unfairly investigated.
Jerry Morris
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- 239
You Sir, have exonerated an agency that knew all the facts beforehand. They knew the conditions inside "the compound", they knew their chemical agents were more than potentially lethal in those conditions. Your condoning of those actions and blame shifting speaks louder than any words I could write here.
Jerry
Scorpiusdeus, seems like there's an awful lot to be paranoid about. The history of F-Troop's abuses is long and has a bodycount. Ask Mr. Kenyon Ballew how "professional" the BATF is.
As to the case of the OP, he's clearly being targeted due to his racial and professional background. Where's the line between that overused term "due diligence" and flat out prejudice?
As to the case of the OP, he's clearly being targeted due to his racial and professional background. Where's the line between that overused term "due diligence" and flat out prejudice?
Deanimator
Member
What part of his medical training would equip him to know whether he needed a lawyer, much less whether his rights were being violated? I'm thinking that's akin to an attorney's ability to do serology.
As far as the racist culture in the BATF(E), that's proven absolutely beyond doubt. It cost them $4.6 MILLION too.
Of course there could be an entirely innocent explanation for a government agency putting on a racially segregated event, organized out of government offices, on government time, by government employees, using government resources, and with the invitations printed on government letterhead.
And those "ni**er hunting licenses", all perfectly innocuous, both traded back and forth at the Roundup and posted in BATF offices, RIGHT?
The BATFE is what it is. All of the excuses and blaming of its victims in the world won't change that.
Deanimator
Member
Please don't confuse the actions of the BATF and FBI.
It was the BATF, through its typical laziness, dishonesty and incompetence which got the ball rolling at Waco.
It was only after the BATF was DEFEATED and ALLOWED to slink off in ignominious disgrace, under a white flag of SURRENDER that the FBI become involved, eventually killing large numbers of women and children, through poisoning, asphyxiation, crushing and [probably] accidental burning.
In BOTH the Ruby Ridge and Waco debacles, the BATF was the proximate cause of the deaths of innocents. They LIED to the USMS about Randy Weaver's criminal record. They LIED about a "meth lab" on the Davidian property.
The BATFE is the perfect storm of evil and incompetence.
Scorpiusdeus
member
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/9603/gr000085.htm
(ii) OIG findings
We found no credible evidence that "****** hunting licenses" were available at the Roundup -- for sale or other distribution. Nearly half of the persons who attended the 1995 Roundup were interviewed during the course of this investigation, yet none saw such licenses. While some people admitted having seen them at gun shows in the South, they did not see them at the Roundup. The one person making this allegation, Jeffrey Randall, was not credible. First, he was evasive about answering any questions regarding his alleged discovery of such licenses at the Roundup, refusing to even confirm that he had obtained one there. Second, Randall claimed that he had found them everywhere and that they were being freely traded -- yet we could find no one else who claimed to have seen them. Significantly, many of these same people reported other racist conduct at this Roundup. Third, despite having a camera and purportedly taking pictures all around the campsite, there were no pictures of the license at the campsite. Randall's photograph of the license could have been taken anywhere. Fourth, even the picture itself, which Randall has widely disseminated in the media but refused to produce pursuant to an OIG subpoena, is suspect. The license in the photograph does not appear to be damaged in any way. Many witnesses concurred, however, that the bathrooms at the campground were filthy with backed up and overflowing toilets and were frequently hosed down to clean them out. It is implausible that a paper license could have survived undamaged in that environment. Finally, even Hayward did not claim to see the license and does not know anything about how or when Randall purportedly found the license at the campground.
The claim that such a license was found at this year's Roundup is also suspect because of how neatly it fit into Hayward and Randall's plan to discredit ATF. Hayward testified that such licenses were mentioned on the G. Gordon Liddy show in which the black ATF agents' lawsuit was described. Apparently, as evidenced by Cooper's testimony at the Senate hearing, a similar license was alleged to have been found in an ATF office in Oklahoma. Thus, at the time Hayward and Randall went in search of racist conduct, they were aware that such an item would be the proverbial "smoking gun." More than 200 people, many of whom spent several days at the 1995 Roundup, did not see such licenses. It is therefore implausible that Randall, who was purportedly present for only a few hours on a single day, managed to come across this highly inflammatory piece of evidence.
Finally, Randall has expressed his own motivation to discredit the ATF -- even if that means fabricating evidence to do so. As we noted earlier, Randall is a primary founder and a leader of the Gadsden Minutemen. According to an article in Media Bypass magazine in September 1995, the Gadsden Minutemen learned about the Roundup in mid-February 1995. [ / The accuracy of this article's claims is dubious. As Randall did not respond to our requests for an interview regarding "Operation Achilles Heel," we can only repeat the version he apparently gave to Media Bypass. We note, however, that many of the facts in the article regarding the Roundup are in error. For example, the article claims that Hayward is a twenty-year veteran robbery and homicide detective. He was in fact a police officer for a total of eight years, only a small portion of which was spent as a detective. Randall is referred to as a former Attalla, Alabama, police officer. He was in fact in the police reserves for several months. The article referred to the Buckwheat T-shirt as the "ATF 'Pocket ******' shirt" and claims that it was entered in a T-shirt competition at the 1992 Roundup. There is no support for either of these claims. The article claimed that Rightmyer admitted that the sign shown in the Hayward video was "posted at the entrance to the event in 1989 and 1990." Rightmyer did not admit any such thing, nor is there any credible evidence that any sign was posted at the entrance in either 1989 or 1990. The sign in the video appeared for a short period of time in 1990 inside the campground. The article claimed that the 1992 T-shirt has a drawing of an ATF agent on top of a police car. The drawing is of a Birmingham, Alabama, police officer, not an ATF agent. There is a photograph purporting to show two ATF agents drinking moonshine. Neither of the individuals is employed by ATF. The article also claimed that a number of ATF agents were in its centerfold photograph of a group of persons on motorcycles and displaying a confederate flag. No one identified any of the persons in the photograph as being employed by ATF. The article neglected to mention, however, that Hayward appears in the photograph. ] Shortly thereafter, Randall began "investigating" the Roundup. Within several weeks Randall purportedly made contact with Hayward, who told him of the videotape and photographs he had of the Roundup. In a June 1995 article posted on the Internet, Randall explained how he developed a plan to "infiltrate" the 1995 Roundup for the purpose of collecting evidence that would persuade Congress to dismantle the ATF. [ / Media Bypass contended that Hayward, who is referred to as "George," got Randall an invitation to attend. This is in error. Randall and Hayward were not invited to the Roundup. Hayward and Randall entered the campground from the rear, not through the registration area. ] In his frequent media appearances since July, Randall has blamed ATF officers for allegedly racist actions at the Roundup, even when he has no evidence that such agents were involved. To be sure, we do not suggest that merely because someone is seeking information to discredit an agency, they cannot be believed. But in this instance, Randall's actions cast substantial doubt on whether he is telling the truth.
This conclusion is further buttressed by Randall's refusal to comply with the subpoena for photographs and videotape of the Roundup he has acknowledged possessing, because it demonstrates an unwillingness to cooperate with authorities seeking to determine the truth about the Roundup. Indeed, on several occasions Randall has openly threatened bloodshed if the OIG subpoena was enforced. While Randall showed up unannounced and uninvited to an interview of another militia member and answered a few questions posed by OIG agents, he refused to be interviewed outside the presence of other militia members; refused to answer a number of pertinent questions; and cut the interview short. He and his lawyer subsequently ignored later requests for interviews by both the Treasury and Justice OIGs.
Randall's account thus is replete with inaccuracies and is internally inconsistent. His motivation to fabricate evidence appears to be strong, and his allegation is contradicted by more than 200 other witnesses. We therefore find no credible evidence that "****** hunting licenses" were available at the 1995 Roundup
(ii) OIG findings
We found no credible evidence that "****** hunting licenses" were available at the Roundup -- for sale or other distribution. Nearly half of the persons who attended the 1995 Roundup were interviewed during the course of this investigation, yet none saw such licenses. While some people admitted having seen them at gun shows in the South, they did not see them at the Roundup. The one person making this allegation, Jeffrey Randall, was not credible. First, he was evasive about answering any questions regarding his alleged discovery of such licenses at the Roundup, refusing to even confirm that he had obtained one there. Second, Randall claimed that he had found them everywhere and that they were being freely traded -- yet we could find no one else who claimed to have seen them. Significantly, many of these same people reported other racist conduct at this Roundup. Third, despite having a camera and purportedly taking pictures all around the campsite, there were no pictures of the license at the campsite. Randall's photograph of the license could have been taken anywhere. Fourth, even the picture itself, which Randall has widely disseminated in the media but refused to produce pursuant to an OIG subpoena, is suspect. The license in the photograph does not appear to be damaged in any way. Many witnesses concurred, however, that the bathrooms at the campground were filthy with backed up and overflowing toilets and were frequently hosed down to clean them out. It is implausible that a paper license could have survived undamaged in that environment. Finally, even Hayward did not claim to see the license and does not know anything about how or when Randall purportedly found the license at the campground.
The claim that such a license was found at this year's Roundup is also suspect because of how neatly it fit into Hayward and Randall's plan to discredit ATF. Hayward testified that such licenses were mentioned on the G. Gordon Liddy show in which the black ATF agents' lawsuit was described. Apparently, as evidenced by Cooper's testimony at the Senate hearing, a similar license was alleged to have been found in an ATF office in Oklahoma. Thus, at the time Hayward and Randall went in search of racist conduct, they were aware that such an item would be the proverbial "smoking gun." More than 200 people, many of whom spent several days at the 1995 Roundup, did not see such licenses. It is therefore implausible that Randall, who was purportedly present for only a few hours on a single day, managed to come across this highly inflammatory piece of evidence.
Finally, Randall has expressed his own motivation to discredit the ATF -- even if that means fabricating evidence to do so. As we noted earlier, Randall is a primary founder and a leader of the Gadsden Minutemen. According to an article in Media Bypass magazine in September 1995, the Gadsden Minutemen learned about the Roundup in mid-February 1995. [ / The accuracy of this article's claims is dubious. As Randall did not respond to our requests for an interview regarding "Operation Achilles Heel," we can only repeat the version he apparently gave to Media Bypass. We note, however, that many of the facts in the article regarding the Roundup are in error. For example, the article claims that Hayward is a twenty-year veteran robbery and homicide detective. He was in fact a police officer for a total of eight years, only a small portion of which was spent as a detective. Randall is referred to as a former Attalla, Alabama, police officer. He was in fact in the police reserves for several months. The article referred to the Buckwheat T-shirt as the "ATF 'Pocket ******' shirt" and claims that it was entered in a T-shirt competition at the 1992 Roundup. There is no support for either of these claims. The article claimed that Rightmyer admitted that the sign shown in the Hayward video was "posted at the entrance to the event in 1989 and 1990." Rightmyer did not admit any such thing, nor is there any credible evidence that any sign was posted at the entrance in either 1989 or 1990. The sign in the video appeared for a short period of time in 1990 inside the campground. The article claimed that the 1992 T-shirt has a drawing of an ATF agent on top of a police car. The drawing is of a Birmingham, Alabama, police officer, not an ATF agent. There is a photograph purporting to show two ATF agents drinking moonshine. Neither of the individuals is employed by ATF. The article also claimed that a number of ATF agents were in its centerfold photograph of a group of persons on motorcycles and displaying a confederate flag. No one identified any of the persons in the photograph as being employed by ATF. The article neglected to mention, however, that Hayward appears in the photograph. ] Shortly thereafter, Randall began "investigating" the Roundup. Within several weeks Randall purportedly made contact with Hayward, who told him of the videotape and photographs he had of the Roundup. In a June 1995 article posted on the Internet, Randall explained how he developed a plan to "infiltrate" the 1995 Roundup for the purpose of collecting evidence that would persuade Congress to dismantle the ATF. [ / Media Bypass contended that Hayward, who is referred to as "George," got Randall an invitation to attend. This is in error. Randall and Hayward were not invited to the Roundup. Hayward and Randall entered the campground from the rear, not through the registration area. ] In his frequent media appearances since July, Randall has blamed ATF officers for allegedly racist actions at the Roundup, even when he has no evidence that such agents were involved. To be sure, we do not suggest that merely because someone is seeking information to discredit an agency, they cannot be believed. But in this instance, Randall's actions cast substantial doubt on whether he is telling the truth.
This conclusion is further buttressed by Randall's refusal to comply with the subpoena for photographs and videotape of the Roundup he has acknowledged possessing, because it demonstrates an unwillingness to cooperate with authorities seeking to determine the truth about the Roundup. Indeed, on several occasions Randall has openly threatened bloodshed if the OIG subpoena was enforced. While Randall showed up unannounced and uninvited to an interview of another militia member and answered a few questions posed by OIG agents, he refused to be interviewed outside the presence of other militia members; refused to answer a number of pertinent questions; and cut the interview short. He and his lawyer subsequently ignored later requests for interviews by both the Treasury and Justice OIGs.
Randall's account thus is replete with inaccuracies and is internally inconsistent. His motivation to fabricate evidence appears to be strong, and his allegation is contradicted by more than 200 other witnesses. We therefore find no credible evidence that "****** hunting licenses" were available at the 1995 Roundup
Deanimator
Member
So what you're saying is that there were no "ni**er hunting licenses" at the SEGREGATED, GOVERNMENT SPONSORED activity?
Oh, I guess that makes it all ok...
Scorpiusdeus
member
Deanimator: You really need to stay away from the wacky they are out to get us websites.
Clearly things in Waco could have needed better, but the Branch Davidians were just a bunch of fringe misunderstood folks, as much as the 9/11 Hijackers where just here to learn how to fly.
Jim Jones was just a goofy guy who liked South America until he broke out the Kool-aid.
For once the Feds got there before any innocent people were seriously hurt, but Koresh made sure the day wouldn't be bloodless.
The Davidians set that fire and what was stopping them from escapeing or releasing the children?
Clearly things in Waco could have needed better, but the Branch Davidians were just a bunch of fringe misunderstood folks, as much as the 9/11 Hijackers where just here to learn how to fly.
Jim Jones was just a goofy guy who liked South America until he broke out the Kool-aid.
For once the Feds got there before any innocent people were seriously hurt, but Koresh made sure the day wouldn't be bloodless.
The Davidians set that fire and what was stopping them from escapeing or releasing the children?
Scorpiusdeus
member
It's not what I'm saying son, it's what the Inspector General said, but if you were there and have actual evidence please step up ans show us.
Please show us all one of these posters you yourself saw at an ATF office or at the roundup.
Do you have some special inside secret knowledge the rest of us aren't privy to?
I don't think any government agency is perfect or that there aren't racists, but I'm not hanging the whole agency based on the behavior of a few idiots.
Scorpiusdeus, if the Branch Davidians were interested in killing a bunch of F-Troopers, all they would have had to do was fire everything they had into the cattle car they deployed out of. Hell, the majority of their casualties were from "friendly fire". Nevermind that they outright lied to the Texas National Guard to have their choppers unload indiscriminately into their building.
Your "heroes" were most certainly not heroes at all, they were tax men playing Rambo who got a lot of innocent people and several of their own killed trying to prove how big their wangs were. Instead, they stepped on their wangs, live via satellite.
Your "heroes" were most certainly not heroes at all, they were tax men playing Rambo who got a lot of innocent people and several of their own killed trying to prove how big their wangs were. Instead, they stepped on their wangs, live via satellite.
Scorpiusdeus
member
I think at this point, I'll just agree to disagree. I have read, seen, or heard nothing to change my mind and I know you guys won't change yours so this has nowhere to go but down.
We all have a right to our opinion and I think they are all out there now.
We all have a right to our opinion and I think they are all out there now.
Jerry Morris
Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2003
- Messages
- 239
There was no confusion. Someone wants to let off the baby-burners, by shifting blame to Koresh. I addressed the issue.
Jerry
Scorpiusdeus
member
There ya go, fixed it for you
budney
member
Scorpius, the problem is that no crimes have been proven against Koresh or any of his followers. They are all innocent until proven guilty, and a media smear campaign is hardly "due process." Being a whackjob is NOT a death penalty offense in this country.
--Len.
--Len.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Hello?? Hey Guys!
Hey, can we slide this thread back on the rails?
We're starting to see more heat than light.
I want to know the outcome of the ATF visit, and I'd rather not see the thread locked before that.
Okay? Guys?
Plenty of time for a rehash of the misbehaviors of alphabet agencies.
Let's see if we can get some facts on this.
So, ORIGINAL POSTER, can you give us an update?
Hey, can we slide this thread back on the rails?
We're starting to see more heat than light.
I want to know the outcome of the ATF visit, and I'd rather not see the thread locked before that.
Okay? Guys?
Plenty of time for a rehash of the misbehaviors of alphabet agencies.
Let's see if we can get some facts on this.
So, ORIGINAL POSTER, can you give us an update?
Fisherman_48768
Member
Deanimator said and I will correct!
No your wrong, it's mine, yours and our money, until the individual agent is held responsible they will continue to freely waste our tax dollars. No skin off their nose but it is beginning to hurt my wallet.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
This has gone off topic.
alpha6164 -
If you wish to post a follow-up thread detailing your response to that situation, you're more than welcome to.
alpha6164 -
If you wish to post a follow-up thread detailing your response to that situation, you're more than welcome to.
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