ZeSpectre
Member
Heh, working for the USDOJ will MAKE you part of the "tinfoil hat" crowd.
ATF agents showed up at my house?
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Deanimator
Member
If you want to trust in the honesty and integrity of an organization which made and distributed an OFFICIAL training video on HOW TO COMMIT PERJURY, knock yourself out.
The guy who started this thread was smart enough to become a doctor. I'm betting he's smart enough not to take your advice.
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SaMx
Member
where can I see that video?
Peter Gun
Member
i'm sure you are an upstanding citizen. You are a persian doctor who bought a lot of guns. if you talk to ATF agents without a lawyer you will also have a new title: scapegoat
remember, yo're not paranoid if they really are out to get you. And if you think they are not, you are fooling yourself.
remember, yo're not paranoid if they really are out to get you. And if you think they are not, you are fooling yourself.
Aguila Blanca
Member
The Glasgow car bombers were doctors and medical personnel.
I would suggest that you ask an attorney to sit in, and openly tape record the session. Being of the tinfoil hat wearing persuasion, I would run two tape (or video) recorders. They only need to know about one of them. Once they have agreed to proceed with a recorder or camera running, you can have 100 more that they don't need to know about.
No, I do not trust my government. Every time I have tried to do "the right thing" by assisting the G-men I have suffered greatly. My attitude today is, if they ask what time it is I might tell them where to buy a watch.
Aguila Blanca
Member
The terrorism threat may be real ... or it may not be real, or it may be real but greatly exaggerated.
Your point?
Are you advocating the suspension of Constitutional liberties because you believe that the threat of terrorism is real?
Precisely. The Government is actively seeking patsies on whose backs they can build up a track record of "successful terrorist interdictions." The Government has told us that the terrorists are here, and that they (the Government) are hard at work protecting us. They need to produce some results to justify their claims. It doesn't matter to the agents if they need to lie a bit or fabricate a bit of evidence to obtain a conviction. They need the numbers, and if they can't find them you should expect that they will fabricate them.Peter Gun said:
See, in my case of sometimes buying 3 pistols in a week means nothing to them for concern. In MI we have to register our pistols. So, if I sell one, they know it within 10 days.
Relax. If you are law-abbiding it is simple formality. Enjoy learning more of the process of checks and balance.
Relax. If you are law-abbiding it is simple formality. Enjoy learning more of the process of checks and balance.
Deanimator
Member
Good question. YouTube's probably a good place to start. The BATF NFA record keeping video was admitted to by the BATF, although they claimed it wasn't suborning of perjury... even though that's exactly what it was. The thing was a massive Brady (not Sarah) nightmare for the Treasury and Justice Departments. It jeopardized dozens if not hundreds of NFA prosecutions.
I'm pretty sure I've seen links to it in usenet in the past.
ebd10
Member
Just remember; your domicile isn't officially a "compound" until you're surrounded by Federal Agents.
deanf
Member
If you decide to meet with them, and if it is legal for you to open carry where you meet with them, you should consider doing so.
SouthpawShootr
Member
If this comment was directed at the OP, I guarantee you that ATF agents have already visited the dealer and made copies of the 4473(s) involved.
I think a lawyer is a good idea. Being a physician you probably already have a number for a good one.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not being nasty or anything, just I know alot of MDs on a professional basis and getting sued (most often for unavoidable complications) is a common thing. Only thing is, a malpractice lawyer is not really in your best interests. I'm not sure if such a lawyer is properly conditioned for the rigors of federal hardball (if it comes to that). You'd be best with somebody who is a criminal defense lawyer, preferably someone who has defended local LEOs. Still, this is very short notice and go with what you can get. If you tell them to piss off and get a warrant, they'll do just that and trash your home in the process. These guys are not afraid of court and there are many judges who will sign warrants as a matter of course. Be careful. Put them off if you must, politely, but do try and get a lawyer. In all probability, it's nothing more than what you've already guessed. Make sure you actually have the guns on your property. They'll want to see them. Oh, and another thought. If you have a any prescription drugs in your house that have not been prescribed for you or a family member by another physician, I suggest you move them to your practice. If they serve a warrant, the DEA will be called if they find anything out of the ordinary. Another headache you don't need.larry_minn
Member
I also think the number of guns (your backgroud/Europe) is reason for talk. I would suggest doing it at work. And the idea of two recorders (one not on table) but get permission to record is worth considering.
IMO odds are once they find out you bought guns for personal use/not straw purchase they are done. Maybe put them (multiple purchase guns) in a case seperate from everything else. So if they want to see them that is all they see.
IMO odds are once they find out you bought guns for personal use/not straw purchase they are done. Maybe put them (multiple purchase guns) in a case seperate from everything else. So if they want to see them that is all they see.
online2mch
Member
Remember Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby just "talked" to Federales and wound up convicted.
Feanaro
Member
Remember this: the best thing that can happen is that you don't end up dead or in jail. That is your best case scenario. Keep that in mind when preparing for your meeting.
The terrorism talk is just BS. Just because some idiots of Iranian heritage tried to blow some stuff up doesn't make all Iranians terrorists. Remember Timothy McVeigh? He was a white male from Oklahoma. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
As for the meeting: bring a lawyer!!! The lawyer could save your ass.
The governemnt (ATF, FBI, whatever) is not looking out for you: ( the following is from here) I added the bold.
Two incidents in the early 1990s brought criticism to the agency, as well as to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), specifically the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) and U.S. Marshals (USM).
The first incident occurred on August 21, 1992, in northern Idaho and is known as the Ruby Ridge incident. A shot fired by an FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi killed an unarmed woman holding her daughter as she stood in the doorway of her home. The raid, conducted by the FBI, was the execution of a search warrant issued based on an ATF investigation. The warrant involved a short barreled shotgun claimed to violate federal gun laws, and was later found to have been illegally issued (see Trial findings) [5] The incident has become a lightning rod for legal activists within the gun rights community. The ATF and FBI were officially reprimanded for their handling of the investigation and resulting raid.
The second incident was the initial assault that prompted the siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, from February 28, 1993 until April 19, 1993. The raid resulted in the death of four ATF Special Agents and an unknown number of Branch Davidians. ATF conducted the raid on the day that a search warrant was to have expired.
Criticism followed the publication of the multi-page warrant affidavit, which alleged that individuals within the compound possessed illegal arms and otherwise violated federal firearms laws. Further condemnation resulted from the following revelations:
* During their initial investigation, Branch Davidian leader David Koresh had invited the ATF to visit.
* One of the ATF's eyewitnesses—claiming to have stood guard with a machine gun, and to have seen young girls leaving Koresh's room in the night—was actually legally blind.
* The raid, to which the media were invited, was timed to coincide with budget hearings at which ATF was to have been grilled about questionable hiring and promotion practices.
Later, after a 51-day standoff with FBI and other law enforcement, the FBI introduced CS gas to the compound. U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno had approved this action. An ensuing fire and building collapse killed most occupants of the building. A grand jury found that the deaths were suicides or otherwise caused by people inside the compound.
As for the meeting: bring a lawyer!!! The lawyer could save your ass.
The governemnt (ATF, FBI, whatever) is not looking out for you: ( the following is from here) I added the bold.
Two incidents in the early 1990s brought criticism to the agency, as well as to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), specifically the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) and U.S. Marshals (USM).
The first incident occurred on August 21, 1992, in northern Idaho and is known as the Ruby Ridge incident. A shot fired by an FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi killed an unarmed woman holding her daughter as she stood in the doorway of her home. The raid, conducted by the FBI, was the execution of a search warrant issued based on an ATF investigation. The warrant involved a short barreled shotgun claimed to violate federal gun laws, and was later found to have been illegally issued (see Trial findings) [5] The incident has become a lightning rod for legal activists within the gun rights community. The ATF and FBI were officially reprimanded for their handling of the investigation and resulting raid.
The second incident was the initial assault that prompted the siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, from February 28, 1993 until April 19, 1993. The raid resulted in the death of four ATF Special Agents and an unknown number of Branch Davidians. ATF conducted the raid on the day that a search warrant was to have expired.
Criticism followed the publication of the multi-page warrant affidavit, which alleged that individuals within the compound possessed illegal arms and otherwise violated federal firearms laws. Further condemnation resulted from the following revelations:
* During their initial investigation, Branch Davidian leader David Koresh had invited the ATF to visit.
* One of the ATF's eyewitnesses—claiming to have stood guard with a machine gun, and to have seen young girls leaving Koresh's room in the night—was actually legally blind.
* The raid, to which the media were invited, was timed to coincide with budget hearings at which ATF was to have been grilled about questionable hiring and promotion practices.
Later, after a 51-day standoff with FBI and other law enforcement, the FBI introduced CS gas to the compound. U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno had approved this action. An ensuing fire and building collapse killed most occupants of the building. A grand jury found that the deaths were suicides or otherwise caused by people inside the compound.
crankshop1000
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Gee lets see,a middle eastern doctor with a history of buying weapons...With what some middle eastern doctors tried to do in Europe I'd think that might just have something to do with the chat.
Thanks for all the replies. I understand the situation that happened in Europe might have stirred things up. Also, the "doctors" in U.K. were they actually medical doctors, or just "doctors" as in Phds? Also, they have all been from Arabic backgrounds.
I have a great lawyer that is an ex-FBI agent. I might have to give him a call. But I rather not. Since I have not done anything wrong, i don't want to make myself look guilty by looking all paranoid??? All these terrorist cells, live in tiny apartments, and are like nomads. Not to brag, but I am sure after the agents came in a gated community and saw a 1.5mil house, and the fact that I called them right back and didn't sound nervous at all and welcomed them to stop by my office to "talk" had to ease their minds a little bit.
I will definitely keep you guys posted.
I have a great lawyer that is an ex-FBI agent. I might have to give him a call. But I rather not. Since I have not done anything wrong, i don't want to make myself look guilty by looking all paranoid??? All these terrorist cells, live in tiny apartments, and are like nomads. Not to brag, but I am sure after the agents came in a gated community and saw a 1.5mil house, and the fact that I called them right back and didn't sound nervous at all and welcomed them to stop by my office to "talk" had to ease their minds a little bit.
I will definitely keep you guys posted.
tinygnat219
Member
I agree with most of these posts, there's some good stuff there and some... well, let's call it dreck.
Good Stuff:
Attorney. Find one, quick, and setup a meeting with the attorney at the attorney's office. Tape Record the meeting. The feds don't need to be at your place of residence. This avoids pissing them off, and keeps them and a warrant from your place. The attorney can also ask them questions regarding the purpose of the meeting without getting you involved.
Get the paperwork, receipts and everything for the firearms. Place them in a notebook and bring the firearms in question to the meeting (unloaded of course), locked in a secure container. Keep them with you, but don't pull them out unless asked to do so. They might be concerned that you are conducting straw purchase sales and selling them after you have bought them. By producing the paperwork and tools, their concerns are nullified. Are you a Concealed Carry Permit Holder? If so, bring a copy of your permit along.
Take the 5th and remember silence is your friend. Don't volunteer any information.
Be polite. If this goes further, you will have proof that you weren't disrespectful toward the agents, and in a lot of courts that kind of respect toward Law Enforcement goes a long way.
Drek:
Calling them and telling them to F-off. This just gets them in a gleeful mood and they might take it out on you if a warrant is gotten. The last thing you want is to be pulled out of bed at 2AM the day before a final.
Ignoring them. They obviously want to talk to you. If you ignore them, you might have a not so enjoyable experience as they try to stalk you, etc.
Good Luck, and keep us posted.
Good Stuff:
Attorney. Find one, quick, and setup a meeting with the attorney at the attorney's office. Tape Record the meeting. The feds don't need to be at your place of residence. This avoids pissing them off, and keeps them and a warrant from your place. The attorney can also ask them questions regarding the purpose of the meeting without getting you involved.
Get the paperwork, receipts and everything for the firearms. Place them in a notebook and bring the firearms in question to the meeting (unloaded of course), locked in a secure container. Keep them with you, but don't pull them out unless asked to do so. They might be concerned that you are conducting straw purchase sales and selling them after you have bought them. By producing the paperwork and tools, their concerns are nullified. Are you a Concealed Carry Permit Holder? If so, bring a copy of your permit along.
Take the 5th and remember silence is your friend. Don't volunteer any information.
Be polite. If this goes further, you will have proof that you weren't disrespectful toward the agents, and in a lot of courts that kind of respect toward Law Enforcement goes a long way.
Drek:
Calling them and telling them to F-off. This just gets them in a gleeful mood and they might take it out on you if a warrant is gotten. The last thing you want is to be pulled out of bed at 2AM the day before a final.
Ignoring them. They obviously want to talk to you. If you ignore them, you might have a not so enjoyable experience as they try to stalk you, etc.
Good Luck, and keep us posted.
OK, I'm insulted by the "...just "doctors" as in Phds?" crack. You should know that a lot of PhDs consider an MD a trade degree.
Yes, the suspects in Great Britain were MEDICAL DOCTORS (you know, REAL doctors- still insulted).
BTW- the word doctor is from the Latin doctus which means learned or educated. The proper term for an MD to describe his occupation is physician.
ANYWAY, I agree that it's a combination of your name and the multiple purchases. Arrange to meet away from home, don't let them in without a warrant, point out that you are a U.S. citizen and law-abiding person and there shouldn't be any trouble. They do these contacts sometimes to verify the legitimacy of the purchases. yes, it;s an intrusion but that's what the government does best,
The government is run by all those JDs. Let's get on their case, now.
Yes, the suspects in Great Britain were MEDICAL DOCTORS (you know, REAL doctors- still insulted).
BTW- the word doctor is from the Latin doctus which means learned or educated. The proper term for an MD to describe his occupation is physician.
ANYWAY, I agree that it's a combination of your name and the multiple purchases. Arrange to meet away from home, don't let them in without a warrant, point out that you are a U.S. citizen and law-abiding person and there shouldn't be any trouble. They do these contacts sometimes to verify the legitimacy of the purchases. yes, it;s an intrusion but that's what the government does best,
The government is run by all those JDs. Let's get on their case, now.
osteodoc08
Member
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My friend (who is also a doctor and ex Marine sniper) had the feds pay a visit to him when the shootings were occuring in Maryland a few years ago. He had recently bought a few firearms about 6 months prior to the shootings. He invited them in, chatted it a bit, and they left. End of story. The only difference is that he was off for the day and they just showed up were as you have had just over the phone contact. Just be careful to make sure it isn't some elaborate criminals that want in your house!
I have also met with some Feds that were "just wanted to talk to me." Turns out my neighbor who had recently moved was applying for special clearance in the military. They asked some questions about his demeanor, his relationship with others, if he was in any 'organization' and similar questions. We chatted for about a half an hour or so. No big deal. I hope he received his clearance.
Keep us posted on what occurs. I'm sure you have nothing to worry about. As a side note, I'm finishing up medical school and have numerous 'ethnic' friends from all over the world. To my knowledge, none of them have been questioned by the Feds.
I have also met with some Feds that were "just wanted to talk to me." Turns out my neighbor who had recently moved was applying for special clearance in the military. They asked some questions about his demeanor, his relationship with others, if he was in any 'organization' and similar questions. We chatted for about a half an hour or so. No big deal. I hope he received his clearance.
Keep us posted on what occurs. I'm sure you have nothing to worry about. As a side note, I'm finishing up medical school and have numerous 'ethnic' friends from all over the world. To my knowledge, none of them have been questioned by the Feds.
SAXONPIG said:
Definitely didn't mean to insult you or other PhDs
Trust me i have many PhD friends and dentists, and none of them refer to themselves as "doctors." If you point blank as them what they do for a living, they will tell you that they have a PhD in mathematics, or biology or they are a dentist etc etc. But none of them will come back to say "I am a doctor." You are 100% correct in that "physician" is the correct english terminology to define a person with an M.D./D.O. But the word "doctor" is basically an international phrase. In any language, when you utter the word "doctor" the person assumes that you are a medical doctor. Just think of it this way, when some passes out at the mall, and people yell out "...is there a doctor in the house?" Would the PhD respond? The PhD in the area knows what is really meant by that phrase. Sorry for the rambling, but just wanted to make sure that I didn't mean the above as an insult
Deanimator
Member
Mistrust of the BATFE is no more "paranoia" than NOT sleeping in grizzly bear country with lambchops tied around your neck.
The BATFE has a VERY long history of misbehavior, ranging from rudeness to shooting people for no good reason.
I would no more talk to the BATFE without a lawyer PRESENT than I would let my daughter date Mike Tyson. Yeah, maybe nothing bad might happen, but why chance it with somebody with that kind of track record?
My understanding is that it's not necessarily if you buy more than one handgun that causes them to visit you as I've bought 3 handguns at once and never heard from the ATF. It's specifically when you buy more than one of the exact same handgun at the same time which according to the OP, he did:
They probably want to make sure you're not operating as an illegal gun dealer and will probably ask about the 2 same guns.... or maybe all of them since they probably see the whole thing. They just want to make sure you're not buying from FFL's and selling on the street.
That's my understanding at least.
Ironically your house may look incriminating until you tell them you're a medical doctor. They'll be wondering at first whether all the money for that house came from illegal gun sales. The funny thing though about all of this is that who buys guns at full price from FFL's and sells them on the street for less? Guns on the street are cheap and my understanding is that they're stolen most of the time... or otherwise illegally brought in...... not bought at the local gun store.
Again.. I can always be wrong.
Well, for all you know he could be a really nice and good guy. I hope he doesn't see that comment as he'd be wanting to give you an earful over it.
They probably want to make sure you're not operating as an illegal gun dealer and will probably ask about the 2 same guns.... or maybe all of them since they probably see the whole thing. They just want to make sure you're not buying from FFL's and selling on the street.
That's my understanding at least.
Ironically your house may look incriminating until you tell them you're a medical doctor. They'll be wondering at first whether all the money for that house came from illegal gun sales. The funny thing though about all of this is that who buys guns at full price from FFL's and sells them on the street for less? Guns on the street are cheap and my understanding is that they're stolen most of the time... or otherwise illegally brought in...... not bought at the local gun store.
Again.. I can always be wrong.
Well, for all you know he could be a really nice and good guy. I hope he doesn't see that comment as he'd be wanting to give you an earful over it.
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