ATF Asking for more money

[McCall911]

ATF Asking for more money

I say no way in hell!



We've seen too many examples of what they can do with extra funding!

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Gun Tech said:

As a former FFL, and someone married to a Federal LEO, I have seen ATF at close range.

See? They're really human beings! You can even be married to one!

What you rarely hear about is the number of Gang-Bangers, arsonists and others who have been captured by ATF.

As a rule, gun owners only here about the bad stuff about ATF from NRA or GOA, because that' what makes you put a check in that envelope they send you.

See? Men in white hats!

ATF, like every other federal agency, is subject to political pressure, and often it's actions are politically motivated -

I refuse to believe it!

Look at any Federal Agency and I bet I can find several dozen cases of misuse of authority, incompetence, etc.

No! No! Don't look!

 

[romma]

These types of agencies infringe our rights and we should be able to talk about them here IMO.

I don't think talking about them and figuring how to thwart their often illegal and unconstitutional tactics is wrong on a gun forum.

 

[Jim K]

Watch out, America! ATF is looking for more money so they will have to do spectacular things to impress Congress.

Look for hundreds of black-clad agents to raid kindergartens and seize water pistols, which will then be displayed on long tables for the TV cameras.

Look for raids on "terrorists" and "cults" who are "planning attacks on helpless cities."

Look for seizures of machineguns and explosives, even if BATFE has to go buy them for the displays.

Remember, Waco grew out of the desire for BATF to "improve" their image and "impress" the new president (Clinton) with their prowess in going after evil religious cults. I expect the Mormon Tabernacle and St. Patrick's Cathedral to be raided any day now. (I hope the Cardinal paid taxes on the sacramental wine!)

Jim

 

[csmkersh]

That's not correct, Gun Tech. ATF traces it's history much further back, March 1863 to be specific. Get a copy ofVery Special Agents which is their biography.

Also, Ness was FBI and a credit stealer of others work.

​

 

[siglite]

Very Special Agents

That cracked me up good. For reasons that aren't very high road. But damnit, I can't get an image of Corky in a black kpot, body armor, and an MP5 out of my head.

 

[VorpalSpork]

In an interview Monday with The Associated Press, Sullivan called battling violent crime the No. 1 priority of ATF

So what are they now the BATFEVC?

 

[joe4702]

Reagan, in his first term, suggested to the NRA that he would be willing to eliminate the ATF. Naturally, the NRA made certain that this did not happen, because without the boogeyman of the ATF, how would they get members to continue to make those donations?

Rubbish.

 

[Cannonball888]

My money goes to ATF every few years

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Rubbish.

It's true.

 

[TexasRifleman]

It's true.

Well hell that's certainly all the proof I needed to hear......

 

[blkbrd666]

BATFEVCSPSTYRC...Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives, Violent Crime, Soda Pop, Sweet Tarts, Yard Rakes and Condoms...yes, before long you will be taxed for everything and jailed for not abiding. "Honey, not tonight, the checking account is low".

 

[schnarrgj]

With the quality of the candidates up for election coupled with the past history of the "political pressure" that is exerted and obeyed with out question, I decided not to renew my 03 because I did not want to be one of the front page news subjects for their edification.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

all the proof I needed to hear

It's been affirmed by multiple posters here, that and think about it, do you really want the FBI in charge of guns?

 

[TexasRifleman]

think about it, do you really want the FBI in charge of guns?

You think moving it to another agency would be any different?

It's been affirmed by multiple posters here

So have Zombie horde invasions and black stealth helicopters in their living rooms, doesn't mean it's proof.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

You think moving it to another agency would be any different?

No, but some people think it would be better I don't.

doesn't mean it's proof.

That's true ,this thread is where most of it came from:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=273969&highlight=nra+atf

 

[jrfoxx]

Quote:
You think moving it to another agency would be any different?

No, but some people think it would be better I don't.


Quote:
doesn't mean it's proof.

Would it be better (from a gun owners standpoint, is what I'm referring too)? Unlikely. Would it be cheaper? I think, heck yes.

Plus, without 3 separate agencies all fighting each other for money, credit, and recognition on the same crimes, maybe if ATF and DEA were ALL merged into the FBI, at least with just 1 person running the show, a tighter reign could be kept,and the cahin of command and accountablity is streamlined, money could be saved in overlapping agents doing the same freaking job, and threatening to arrest each other whne they butt heads for jurisdiction (and thus, budget),*and it would be harder for 3 seperate agencies to be off doing thier own thing, since it take more time, people, and money to monitor 3 separate agencies instead of 1 (even if they are all under "justice" already).

Seems to me, Federal Bureau of Investigations is just that. Federal cops who investigate federal crime issues. Why the need for 3 agencies all doing overlapping jobs, sucking money, and squablling?

put them all under FBI, trim the fat, get rid of all the stuff that causes overlap of investigation, funding and squablling (not to mention, we eliminate the problems of different agencies refusing to share info with each other like is well know from pre-9/11) and be done with it. Too many alphabet soup agencies running amok and fighting with each other instead of doing thier freaking jobs.

why have the DEA, FBI, and ATF all show up for the same drug raid where guns were also involved, fighting over who's in charge, threatening to arrest each other, refusing to share information, barring each other from the scene, etc. when 1 team of FBI agents could have done it for less money, and without the fighting?

* http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24549241

 

[hotpig]

jrfoxx

I think you watch a lot of tv.

I have nearly four years on a multi agency Arson task force set up by the ATF. We operate the same as other task forces they set up around the US.

We run into other agencies both local and Federal that for what ever reason want to handle the case. We go home. If we get into a p***ing match over jurisdiction the boss will hand us our tail.

The only exceptions are when explosive devices may have been used or any suspicious fire involving a church or house of worship.

We are not wasting tax money. Everybody gets assigned a job to do. Just because there are Federal Agents at the scene they are not automatically in charge. Actually most of the time a Fire Department Investigator is in charge.ATF guys do the grunt work with the rest of us.

Working alone it may take a Fire or Arson Investigator hours or days to process a fire scene. Bring in the task force and it is done in as little as one hour. This is a significant savings for smaller departments like mine.

 

[El Tejon]

Just because there are Federal Agents at the scene they are not automatically in charge.

You may want to reconsider that statement, especially in light of ATF's buffoonish behavior at Oklahoma City.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Working alone it may take a Fire or Arson Investigator hours or days to process a fire scene. Bring in the task force and it is done in as little as one hour. This is a significant savings for smaller departments like mine.

Yes, that interdepartmental cooperation is working very well huh?

Here we are in 2008, 7 years after 9/11 and all the alphabet agencies STILL use different radio types on different frequencies that can't interoperate. Even worse when they try to talk to local city/county/state agencies.

Yep, it's all about training at Quantico isn't it?

Budgets the size of the Queen Mary and they can't talk to each other on the radio?

Can YOUR small agency talk directly to the alphapet soup agencies over the radio without a human mediator? Since 95% of the agencies nationwide still can't I'm gonna bet the answer is no. (And I make a living selling the automatic mediators among other things)

The problem with ATF, like all the other alphabet agencies, is waste of the money they already get. Abuses and all aside they simply piss money off like there is no end then act shocked when it runs dry. As taxpayers we simply can't allow that to continue but that begins to drift the thread far from guns so I'll stop here.

 

[romma]

The problem with ATF, like all the other alphabet agencies, is waste of the money they already get. Abuses and all aside they simply piss money off like there is no end then act shocked when it runs dry. As taxpayers we simply can't allow that to continue but that begins to drift the thread far from guns

Perfect statement... Even if you take away the abuses that occur, shameful waste is the continuing theme through all levels of goverment.

 

[hotpig]

You guys keep forgetting what the Government does.

The Governments job is to govern. In order to do this they have to collect taxes to have employees.

The more employees they have the more they can govern.

The more they govern, the more they need money for employees.

The more employees, the more they can govern.

See steps above.

 

[Big Boomer]

I am sorry this is not The High Road, but the ATF can GO TO HELL, go to hell and die! Or is that the other way around?

Actually I think we should have more stores that sell all three together. What makes a better party? Going shooting all day enjoying a smoke hear and there during a good hunt then finishing off the day with a few beers?

 

[Feud]

I wouldn't mind seeing them get more money. I'm sending my application off at the end of the summer, and a budget increase might mean a better chance of being accepted.

(ducks from the thrown rotten vegetables)

 

[jrfoxx]

hotpig- I see you posted before I found, and included the msnbc article, (and now, WA Post copy of the same article).May want to check it out. its pretty interesting.

Maybe you havent seen any of that personally.Maybe your team actually does what is supposed to, works together, doent get into whizzing matches, etc. If so, great work! I'm very glad to hear you arent part of that nonsense.That doesnt mean it isnt happening with other teams, at other times. Sadly, it's very unlikely everyone in all 3 agencies is like you, and your team members, so its to those people I make my comments about wasted time, and wasted money, and just general B.S. type shennanigans that make me think they need to be consolidated and trimmed down.

It may not happen ALL the time, but to deny it happens isnt honest. In my 7 years in the Navy, I saw it first hand plenty of times, and have seen it at every civilian job I've ever had too.

P.s.- the only TV I really every watch at all is History channel, so I dont think thats where I got this info from, as per the news media link.

Darn. OK, went to post the text, or at least relevant parts (its 5 pages long), and msnbc has removed the article.Heres a link to the same article in the WA Post for those interested.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/09/AR2008050903096.html

From the article:

Their new boss, the attorney general, ordered them to merge their national bomb databases, but the FBI has refused. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has long trained bomb-sniffing dogs; the FBI started a competing program.

At crime scenes, FBI and ATF agents have threatened to arrest one another and battled over jurisdiction and key evidence. The ATF inadvertently bought counterfeit cigarettes from the FBI -- the government selling to the government -- because the agencies are running parallel investigations of tobacco smuggling between Virginia and other states.

RE the FBI:

"Everything that we're doing, they're doing," said an ATF agent not authorized to comment. "It's just a constant battle."

More than 30 ATF agents arrived at the smoldering Pentagon the day after Sept. 11, 2001, to help with the largest criminal investigation in the nation's history. The FBI commander threw them off the site.

Although Arlington County had authority over the scene for the first 10 days after the attacks, the two federal agencies fought over who would take the eventual lead in the investigation, recalled Arlington Fire Chief James H. Schwartz, the incident commander.

The ATF backed down, but before assuming control, the FBI again excluded some ATF agents from the site. Several frustrated ATF agents cut a fence to get closer and were ejected by U.S. marshals, Schwartz said.

I'll admit, that last one above, an ATF spokesman denies, but I dont see why he's any more credible than the local fire chief who claims he saw it first hand, so...

It all sounds like petty bickering, threats, and tax money wasting to me. Money is wasted just by having 2 or 3 agencies show up in the first place, when only 1 is really needed. If the FBI can investigat 1 type of fire, in one type of location, no reason they cant do it the other times. Same with guns and drugs. I doubt the FBI would be unable to know what to do with evidence, suspect, etc gun or drug cases. Why is an ATF or DEA needed at all? somebody trained the DEA and ATF do do what they do, so someone can train the FBI to do it, and save money since we wont have 2-3 separate teams spending money just showing up for the same incident, splitting hairs, or evidence, figuring out whose job the crime scene is, etc.Simpler and cheaper, IMHO