csmkersh
Member
Thanks for the Washington Post link, JR. I've passed it on to some friends.
ATF Asking for more money
- Thread starter cavman
- Start date
- Status
Thanks for the Washington Post link, JR. I've passed it on to some friends.
hotpig
Member
Does anybody have any links to ATF atrocities since being removed as tax men and put in the Department of Justice.
Not interested in what the compliance checkers do. They seem to be a pain to more people including us FFL holders than your regular ATF LE Officer.
The post from jrfoxx may explain why post 911 we are to walk away from jurisdiction squabbles.
Not interested in what the compliance checkers do. They seem to be a pain to more people including us FFL holders than your regular ATF LE Officer.
The post from jrfoxx may explain why post 911 we are to walk away from jurisdiction squabbles.
Gunnerpalace
Member
Why is it when I click on page 3 it does not show up?
EDIT:
Oh it needed a post never mind.
EDIT:
Oh it needed a post never mind.
Last edited:
csmkersh
Member
hotpig
Member
Thanks csmkersh
I was looking more for JBT incidents Reno style.
It is strange how that area of the country gets targeted. Around here they would get bored at a "gun show"and go home before finding a straw purchase. Actually most any kind of purchase other than DVDs and deer jerky.
I was looking more for JBT incidents Reno style.
It is strange how that area of the country gets targeted. Around here they would get bored at a "gun show"and go home before finding a straw purchase. Actually most any kind of purchase other than DVDs and deer jerky.
Poper
Member
We are still waiting for documentation that backs this up. So far all we have is your conspiracy theory.
Or maybe I am just splitting hairs here?
Poper
csmkersh
Member
While I can't link Reagan to the "plot," if you'll check THIS on page two you'll see the NRA admits to considering asking Congress to defund the ATF during the 1980s - the Reagan era. It was almost a done deal; the Senate had a committee look into the ATF's abuses and were close to granting the NRA's request when the NRA suddenly realized that without a bogey man, the money cow would dry up.
On page 22 of the following report, the Senate openly chastises the AFT for its abuses. The report can be found HERE.
Poper
Member
First of all, no offense intended and none taken, ok? 
I read your letter from NRA.
Yes. They did consider pushing for disbanding the BATF at that time. As a matter of fact I remember some of the debate/discussion. The reason not to was NOT because they would be
1) The abusive personnel would just be moved to another agency or agencies
2) the abusive personnel would likely pollute/despoil other agencies' operations
3) correcting the inadequacies of the current system had better chance of success
4) The "Know thy enemy", and "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" philosophy was considered better strategy.
All of us have a tendency to oversimplify because we never see the big picture. I am probably no exception. NRA works with the big picture daily. I trust them to know better than I do. It's what they do.
Not seeing the big picture makes conspiracy theories plausible and believable. But supporting documentation is scarce, thin and tenuous at best.
The federal bureaucracy is a huge entity that first and foremost protects itself. To cut out a cancerous part of it will just accelerate its metastasizing by spreading the cancer farther through the government. You can't remove it cleanly. The Union and self preservation instinct will seed its personnel far and wide.
In their letter to you, NRA stated very clearly that F rated Charlie Rangel (the Committee Chair) was not our friend and would be very difficult to work around/with/against. No surprise there.
I don't have any love for BATFE either, but they are certainly not NRA's pet bogeyman some would like us to believe. NRA is not a Conspiracy or Cash Cow. Very few of us know everything the NRA does for us. I am certainly not one of them, but I try to do my part with my limited disposable income by being a Whittington Center Sponsor because I believe it is one of the many great things NRA does and I want to be a part of it.
As previously stated by others much more eloquent than I, it is best to work within the framework that exists and gradually repair what is broken through our legislators.
JMHO and $0.02... FWIW.
Poper
PS: BTW, it may be more difficult to delete ATF than we think. Congress may not appreciate killing off one of their favorite bogeymen and would have to find another agency to investigate then, wouldn't they? Just a thought.
I read your letter from NRA.
Yes. They did consider pushing for disbanding the BATF at that time. As a matter of fact I remember some of the debate/discussion. The reason not to was NOT because they would be
as you put it, but for multiple other reasons. Killing off the BATF may have been possible, but was not a good solution to the problem. Among the reasons:
1) The abusive personnel would just be moved to another agency or agencies
2) the abusive personnel would likely pollute/despoil other agencies' operations
3) correcting the inadequacies of the current system had better chance of success
4) The "Know thy enemy", and "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" philosophy was considered better strategy.
All of us have a tendency to oversimplify because we never see the big picture. I am probably no exception. NRA works with the big picture daily. I trust them to know better than I do. It's what they do.
Not seeing the big picture makes conspiracy theories plausible and believable. But supporting documentation is scarce, thin and tenuous at best.
The federal bureaucracy is a huge entity that first and foremost protects itself. To cut out a cancerous part of it will just accelerate its metastasizing by spreading the cancer farther through the government. You can't remove it cleanly. The Union and self preservation instinct will seed its personnel far and wide.
I do not believe this letter supports this assertion very well.
In their letter to you, NRA stated very clearly that F rated Charlie Rangel (the Committee Chair) was not our friend and would be very difficult to work around/with/against. No surprise there.
I don't have any love for BATFE either, but they are certainly not NRA's pet bogeyman some would like us to believe. NRA is not a Conspiracy or Cash Cow. Very few of us know everything the NRA does for us. I am certainly not one of them, but I try to do my part with my limited disposable income by being a Whittington Center Sponsor because I believe it is one of the many great things NRA does and I want to be a part of it.
As previously stated by others much more eloquent than I, it is best to work within the framework that exists and gradually repair what is broken through our legislators.
JMHO and $0.02... FWIW.
Poper
PS: BTW, it may be more difficult to delete ATF than we think. Congress may not appreciate killing off one of their favorite bogeymen and would have to find another agency to investigate then, wouldn't they?
Just a thought.Quote:
Quote:
It may be a disappointment to some but the ATF is not lurking around all of the gun shows. They do not have enough people or money to mess around like that.
Maybe you should ask some of their victims if that is the case.
Call Cavalry Arms and see how that goes.
Call Red's Trading Post and let us know how that 'war on drugs' is going.
Call famed gunsmith Jim Clark and ask about how installing one Ruger barrel got him threatened with 6 felonies by an ATF agent claiming he was "manufacturing defense items".
If they don't have any manpower for gunshows maybe you can explain why Congress investigated them for illegally seizing over 50 guns at a Virginia gunshow, guns they later returned with no charges filed against the owners. Congress found this had occurred at at least 7 more gunshows in Virginia.
A Firearms Task Force in Pittsburgh was collecting 4473's from dealers illegally, then going to the purchasers homes and asking to see the guns.
By the way, this was only done to gun purchasers who were under 30 and Black.
This list can keep going for a while but I am tired of typing.
Quote:
This shows how little most people know.
Oh I think we know quite a lot more than you think.
~~~~~
Bingo! Thank you.
I am behind in reading some of these threads.
Catherine
Quote:
It may be a disappointment to some but the ATF is not lurking around all of the gun shows. They do not have enough people or money to mess around like that.
Maybe you should ask some of their victims if that is the case.
Call Cavalry Arms and see how that goes.
Call Red's Trading Post and let us know how that 'war on drugs' is going.
Call famed gunsmith Jim Clark and ask about how installing one Ruger barrel got him threatened with 6 felonies by an ATF agent claiming he was "manufacturing defense items".
If they don't have any manpower for gunshows maybe you can explain why Congress investigated them for illegally seizing over 50 guns at a Virginia gunshow, guns they later returned with no charges filed against the owners. Congress found this had occurred at at least 7 more gunshows in Virginia.
A Firearms Task Force in Pittsburgh was collecting 4473's from dealers illegally, then going to the purchasers homes and asking to see the guns.
By the way, this was only done to gun purchasers who were under 30 and Black.
This list can keep going for a while but I am tired of typing.
Quote:
This shows how little most people know.
Oh I think we know quite a lot more than you think.
~~~~~
Bingo! Thank you.
I am behind in reading some of these threads.
Catherine
Another Waco or Ruby Ridge or fill in the blanks~~~
Quote:
Last time the ATF had a big push for funding, they gave us Waco...
~~~~~
Bingo! YOU took the words out of my mouth. Plus it will be a TEST to see how much the sheeple will ignore the latest false flag event and/or citizens getting rounded up - film @ 11PM, detained or 'suicided' or murdered. RENO and her ilk should have been held accountable. The ATF along with many other alphabet agencies should be abolished. Duplicate agencies and FAR too much POWER! Agencies that should have NEVER been formed/started to begin with should be eliminated and the Federal government should be made smaller. Do I think that this will happen in the Nanny State or do I think that most people SEE the LIGHT? No, but I can hope and pray that some people have a clue and will spread the word.
Several weeks ago, on the internet news websites they said that the FED was going to hire another huge group of people... way over 50,000 people. It was on legit NEWS websites not just alternative sites.
To the person who mentioned the war on terror and the war on drugs... NO offense but that is a big LIE and a big JOKE! Color coded, fear mongering tactics and tons more. Connect the dots in BOTH 'wars' and follow the money - follow it some more and while you are doing that SEE WHO REALLY BENEFITS FROM ALL OF IT. NWO power control freaks in the scheme of things in BOTH parties along with more power/control for ALL of these agencies ESPECIALLY the ATF. UGH. Do you see ANY results from this war on terror or the war on drugs? Just like gun control in crime ridden cities... does it STOP crime? All of this anti gun and gun control? NOPE! Did prohibition work? NOPE!
I said the above and tons more years ago. I wrote that on gun and political boards and caught H for it. Funny... some of those people who either complained about what I said/wrote or 'forgot' about those WACO, RUBY RIDGE, etc. murders have seen what is coming down the road and what is ALREADY here and lo and behold... they changed their minds when it comes to the 'police state'.
Some people can't see the forest from the trees. Brainwashed sheep and the goobmint think that if you just throw MORE tax dollar money and give more POWERS to some agency or anything else that is TAXPAYER FUNDED... it will solve x, y or z problems. NO WAY! Our Founding Fathers and true believers in the Constitution weep when they see what has become of this Republic. We can blame BOTH parties because they are to blame along with the sheep who don't give a rat's ___ as my late husband used to say.
Just say NO! NO to the increase of funding! NO in making the government anymore bigger, bloated, controlling, while it sucks the blood out of freedom like leeches and OUR tax dollar money!
Catherine
Quote:
Last time the ATF had a big push for funding, they gave us Waco...
~~~~~
Bingo! YOU took the words out of my mouth. Plus it will be a TEST to see how much the sheeple will ignore the latest false flag event and/or citizens getting rounded up - film @ 11PM, detained or 'suicided' or murdered. RENO and her ilk should have been held accountable. The ATF along with many other alphabet agencies should be abolished. Duplicate agencies and FAR too much POWER! Agencies that should have NEVER been formed/started to begin with should be eliminated and the Federal government should be made smaller. Do I think that this will happen in the Nanny State or do I think that most people SEE the LIGHT? No, but I can hope and pray that some people have a clue and will spread the word.
Several weeks ago, on the internet news websites they said that the FED was going to hire another huge group of people... way over 50,000 people. It was on legit NEWS websites not just alternative sites.
To the person who mentioned the war on terror and the war on drugs... NO offense but that is a big LIE and a big JOKE! Color coded, fear mongering tactics and tons more. Connect the dots in BOTH 'wars' and follow the money - follow it some more and while you are doing that SEE WHO REALLY BENEFITS FROM ALL OF IT. NWO power control freaks in the scheme of things in BOTH parties along with more power/control for ALL of these agencies ESPECIALLY the ATF. UGH. Do you see ANY results from this war on terror or the war on drugs? Just like gun control in crime ridden cities... does it STOP crime? All of this anti gun and gun control? NOPE! Did prohibition work? NOPE!
I said the above and tons more years ago. I wrote that on gun and political boards and caught H for it. Funny... some of those people who either complained about what I said/wrote or 'forgot' about those WACO, RUBY RIDGE, etc. murders have seen what is coming down the road and what is ALREADY here and lo and behold... they changed their minds when it comes to the 'police state'.
Some people can't see the forest from the trees. Brainwashed sheep and the goobmint think that if you just throw MORE tax dollar money and give more POWERS to some agency or anything else that is TAXPAYER FUNDED... it will solve x, y or z problems. NO WAY! Our Founding Fathers and true believers in the Constitution weep when they see what has become of this Republic. We can blame BOTH parties because they are to blame along with the sheep who don't give a rat's ___ as my late husband used to say.
Just say NO! NO to the increase of funding! NO in making the government anymore bigger, bloated, controlling, while it sucks the blood out of freedom like leeches and OUR tax dollar money!
Catherine
PS
PS:
You can call, snail mail and email Congress, the White House, etc. Sometimes that helps but most of the time your tax dollar money gets increased every year = IRS, your tax dollars get wasted on some stupid program or policy and your tax dollars get to FUND some gun grabbing folks under any group of letters ESPECIALLY the ATF.
You can vote if Diebold even counts your vote, you can write in a vote, you can get to choose between the LESSER of the evils... again and again and again. Same old - same old. Ugh.
Catherine
PS:
You can call, snail mail and email Congress, the White House, etc. Sometimes that helps but most of the time your tax dollar money gets increased every year = IRS, your tax dollars get wasted on some stupid program or policy and your tax dollars get to FUND some gun grabbing folks under any group of letters ESPECIALLY the ATF.
You can vote if Diebold even counts your vote, you can write in a vote, you can get to choose between the LESSER of the evils... again and again and again. Same old - same old. Ugh.
Catherine
Gunnerpalace
Member
I thought this is why we passed FOPA and lost MG's?
Here comes the firestorm.
stevelyn
Member
The waffen BATFEces need to start with the criminals in their own violent goon squads.
texasrecurve
Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2008
- Messages
- 15
After that abortion that was the raid on Waco, the whole agency should have been disbanded. It was common knowledge that Koresh went into town on a regular basis and he could have been apprehended easily at any time. But NO, they had to have a big party and dress up in their storm trooper outfits. You know the rest.
TR
TR
Here is a book for you:
SEND IN THE WACO KILLERS by Vin S.
http://www.amazon.com/Send-Waco-Killers-Movement-1993-1998/dp/0967025907
Send In The Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998 (Paperback)
by Vin Suprynowicz (Author) "Americans are taught from childhood, by the unionized bureaucrats in the public schools, that we control our own government..." (more)
Key Phrases: legitimate sporting use, victim disarmament, propaganda camps, Second Amendment, United States, Oklahoma City (more...)
Some others are written by:
Gerry Spence, the lawyer, for Randy Weaver.
http://www.gerryspence.com/
Randy Weaver wrote his own book too. I got it from the library years ago.
Interesting books. Funny thing about most of it is that SOME gun people either don't KNOW about any of it or they ONLY know what the mass media told them along with the goobmint.
I followed those cases... there is so much that has not been told and/or LIES that if you try to tell a person about what really happened worse off a gun toter... you can't get it across because they are either brainwashed by the mass media or want to remain clueLESS as usual. UGH. Sometimes trying to talk to some gun people about some issues is just as bad as talking to an anti gunner! NO offense.
They could have gotten Koresh anytime... that is a FACT.
I followed this and still follow some of what some people want to come out but is being hidden or not discussed in the mass media.
Randy Weaver won his CASE but LOST his loved ones.
I don't always agree with some of these people but when they are not portrayed in the right light even if it is NOT MY RELIGION or BELIEF or LIFESTYLE... that ticks me off royally!
Read some of their books and do some research on your own if it interests you.
IF the Koresh people were not an offshoot of some SDA religion and not 'different'... you might have seen a different outcome along with the ATF funding issue. If those people who were killed and burned alive were ANY OTHER religion like Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Methodist, atheist, agnostic, etc. --- you would NOT have had the murders and if they did murder those religious folks --- YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN OUTRAGE FROM TONS OF ORGANIZATIONS AND THE MASS MEDIA. THAT IS A FACT! NO one stood UP for those people.
Did you notice how they use the word COMPOUND too? No one says anything about the Kennedy Compound when they use that WORD! Geesh, I wonder why... hhmmm.
Catherine
SEND IN THE WACO KILLERS by Vin S.
http://www.amazon.com/Send-Waco-Killers-Movement-1993-1998/dp/0967025907
Send In The Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998 (Paperback)
by Vin Suprynowicz (Author) "Americans are taught from childhood, by the unionized bureaucrats in the public schools, that we control our own government..." (more)
Key Phrases: legitimate sporting use, victim disarmament, propaganda camps, Second Amendment, United States, Oklahoma City (more...)
Some others are written by:
Gerry Spence, the lawyer, for Randy Weaver.
http://www.gerryspence.com/
Randy Weaver wrote his own book too. I got it from the library years ago.
Interesting books. Funny thing about most of it is that SOME gun people either don't KNOW about any of it or they ONLY know what the mass media told them along with the goobmint.
I followed those cases... there is so much that has not been told and/or LIES that if you try to tell a person about what really happened worse off a gun toter... you can't get it across because they are either brainwashed by the mass media or want to remain clueLESS as usual. UGH. Sometimes trying to talk to some gun people about some issues is just as bad as talking to an anti gunner! NO offense.
They could have gotten Koresh anytime... that is a FACT.
I followed this and still follow some of what some people want to come out but is being hidden or not discussed in the mass media.
Randy Weaver won his CASE but LOST his loved ones.
I don't always agree with some of these people but when they are not portrayed in the right light even if it is NOT MY RELIGION or BELIEF or LIFESTYLE... that ticks me off royally!
Read some of their books and do some research on your own if it interests you.
IF the Koresh people were not an offshoot of some SDA religion and not 'different'... you might have seen a different outcome along with the ATF funding issue. If those people who were killed and burned alive were ANY OTHER religion like Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Methodist, atheist, agnostic, etc. --- you would NOT have had the murders and if they did murder those religious folks --- YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN OUTRAGE FROM TONS OF ORGANIZATIONS AND THE MASS MEDIA. THAT IS A FACT! NO one stood UP for those people.
Did you notice how they use the word COMPOUND too? No one says anything about the Kennedy Compound when they use that WORD! Geesh, I wonder why... hhmmm.
Catherine
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