ATF Form 4473 and 3310.4 Questions

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orpington

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My understanding is that ATF Form 4473 is kept on file for at least 20 years by an FFL and he or she also records the information on the 4473 in the "Acquisition and Disposition Log". Also, if 2 or more handguns are purchased within a 5 day time frame, ATF Form 3310.4 is completed in triplicate, one copy of which is sent to the National Tracing Centre, the second copy goes to the State Police, and the third copy remains with the dealer for at least 5 years.

Background here: I WAS going to sell almost everything that was post 1898, had Hillary been elected, an outcome I believed was inevitable. Thankfully, that did not occur.

Nonetheless, some questions here. If I did purchase a longarm through an FFL around 1990, would it be likely that there would be a record of the transaction since it has been well over 20 years? Do FFL's routinely destroy records greater than 20 years of age? Would there be records of such transaction elsewhere after 20 years? Also, with regards to the 3310.4 form, are all copies destroyed after 5 years?

Obviously, a relatively moot point now, but things to consider should a dangerous individual like Hillary get that close to becoming president, in future.

Two more questions, while we are at it. What is the point of Form 3310.4? Why is purchasing a pair of handguns anyone's concern? Also, why is that considered more risky than purchasing 60 handguns annually, one every 6 days (and, hence, no Form 3310.4)? Lastly, in the answers this will generate, IF government entities are supposed to destroy given forms by a certain time frame, what are the odds this actually gets done? The Federal government is not always truthful in its ways--for example, the Federal government maintained that it did not keep a record of all telephone calls, and Edward Snowden disproved this notion. I disapprove of treachery, but I also disapprove of dishonesty at the Federal level.
 
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Why would you have sold everything post-1898 had Hillary been elected?
 
I received a call from a Police Dept. in Southern California years ago. They traced a .44 Charter Bull Dog back to me. The revolver was found in the Mojave Desert at a crime scene.
I had traded the gun to a Wyoming FFL 28 years prior. I ask the Police officer how they traced the gun to me? After all the records are purged after 20 years. He "Laughed"??:oops:
 
Why would you have sold everything post-1898 had Hillary been elected?

Firearms produced before 1899 are considered "antique", for the most part, and there is no paperwork on them. From the government's standpoint, "they don't exist". If Hillary, or another like-minded individual, became president, he or she might elect to ban certain weapons, of which there is paperwork regarding them. If the government has a record of these firearms, and I have one that is 'banned', I might be forced to turn in such firearm for cents on the dollar, or for nothing at all, just because a supreme dictator decided this shall be so.

The stuff I dabble in would not be likely to be banned, I should think, but I don't intend to take chances, should someone like Hillary rise to power. However, I do have some six-shooters, two of which I did sell recently, and, should handguns be banned, I might be forced to turn these in for $100, or less!
 
Agreed. If I recall correctly, the only data that MUST be destroyed is NICS check approved records, and that's within 24 hours.
FFLs may destroy 4473s that are over 20 years old, but they are not required to. And if they close up shop and send their records off to the BATFE, there's no requirement that those must be destroyed at some later date. How possible it is to comb through millions upon millions of paper records stored away for the last 48 years is subject to a lot of debate, but it certainly seems unlikely that the technology to process all those millions of forms into digitally searchable format won't exist eventually, at a level that makes it "worthwhile" for the ATF to devote the resources to doing so.



Selling all one's useful modern guns because of what the government might do someday, if we all fail to resist it effectively, seems beyond belief but to each their own.
 
Well, I don't intend to sell the modern stuff now, but this idea isn't unfathomable. I know of a major collector who sold off most of his post 1898 revolvers when Obama got elected. If you think confiscation can't happen, look at Australia.
 
Frankly, that really pisses me off!!! If records are to be purged after 20 years, they are to be purged after 20 years!!! The government expects honesty on my part, such as when I fill out my tax returns, why doesn't it go both ways?

You do realize that it's the FFL, not the government, that is holding the 4473 for 20 years, right?

I would be willing to bet that large/corporate FFLs are going to keep the 4473 indefinitely, while smaller FFLs are more likely to destroy the 4473 after 20 years. Should something crazy happen (red dawn or an order to confiscate everything) some of those small kitchen table FFLs may even mysteriously catch fire (kind of equivalent to that boating accident you had :uhoh:).

All of that is a moot point though. Your name and address are entered into the FFL's bound book and can not be deleted/altered/destroyed at any point. And FFLs are required to assist in gun traces. So even if they destroyed the 4473 they could still track you down.
 
Come to think of it, there was an early rifle I purchased a few decades ago. I cannot even recall if a 4473 was done on it. I sold it walking around a gun show legally 10 years ago or more now. This was sold to someone who was also an attendee. I cannot even recall what they looked like and probably could not identify them in a line-up. The firearm was unlikely to be used in a crime. There may not have even been paperwork on it as it may have been sold as an antique. I now am able to confirm it was produced in 1897, but that was years after I purchased it. In any event, if there was a 4473 and it was used in a crime, the paperwork could end with me, even if sold several times since. I think even today, I could purchase an AR-15, keep it for awhile, and sell to my cousin, and the paperwork reflects the purchase from my FFL but it now belongs to my cousin. All my firearms were produced in 1933 or before, so the facts relative to the AR-15 may or may not be correct.
 
if there was a 4473 and it was used in a crime, the paperwork could end with me, even if sold several times since.
Certainly. That's the sort of "broken trace" that is massively common with firearms -- and why preventing registration schemes remains effective.

If you buy a NEW gun from a dealer there is a 4473 that is traceable to you since the record chain runs from the manufacturer, to the distributor, to the retailer, to you. That's a very easy set of record jumps to follow.

A private sale or two totally breaks that chain. You don't know the guy that bought it, and certainly don't know what he did with it after that. End of trace.
 
Sam1911,

Okay, that works with longarms and I may have done that, inadvertently. My understanding, though, is that any post-1898 revolver has to go through an FFL, so these are traceable (if sold after 1968) indefinitely, unless paperwork is destroyed. BTW, I don't know the circumstances, as it did not involve me, but I know of a friend of the owner of a handgun leaving it to the friend, and not the next of kin. If left in a will, does that break the chain of handgun ownership? I have not sold a post 1898 revolver through means other than an FFL, and I have not inherited anything through a will (and, as I am not deceased, this does not involve my own will!), so I am unaware of there is any means to such a transfer without a paper trail, despite what anti-2A folks would have you believe.
 
My understanding, though, is that any post-1898 revolver has to go through an FFL,
Not unless that's a state law where you live. It is not common. In most states a handgun can be sold "face-to-face" (privately, no FFL).

BTW, I don't know the circumstances, as it did not involve me, but I know of a friend of the owner of a handgun leaving it to the friend, and not the next of kin. If left in a will, does that break the chain of handgun ownership?
:) Simplest answer is NO, someone owns it and it came from someone else, so there is a chain of ownership. That sounds silly but my point in bringing it up is that 4473 forms are not at all the only way that possession of an item can be traced. The simplest way is just asking, "who bought this from you?" In the case of a will, if the firearm is identified specifically as going to an heir, a firearm transfers directly to the heir without any further paperwork.

But there is, of course, paperwork in that everything is spelled out in a document as in, "I, Jim Bob Johnson, do hereby bequeath my favorite blaster to my dear pal John Bob Jimson of Hardscrabble, Kentucky..." or whatever. It is a record, filed away in an attorey's office. It just isn't a 4473 filed away in a gun dealer's closet.

... unless. Unless John Bob lives far away and it is decided that the gun will be shipped to his local dealer and he will pick it up there. If shipped to a dealer, he'll fill out a 4473 to take possession of it.

I have not sold a post 1898 revolver through means other than an FFL, and I have not inherited anything through a will (and, as I am not deceased, this does not involve my own will!), so I am unaware of there is any means to such a transfer without a paper trail, despite what anti-2A folks would have you believe.
Some folks really buy into the idea that a "paper trail" is a big deal, and others consider that everything is known or recorded by somebody somewhere and one specific federal form sitting in a FFL dealer's filing cabinet somewhere might be far from the top of anyone's worry list when it comes to the government infringing your liberties.

Heck, if they're going to round you up, might as well start with all these gun nuts who post on forums and say, "I sure love my (insert list of all my guns here)!" :)
 
What states can a handgun be transferred face to face and which ones require an FFL? Where would I find such a list? I live in a state that is fairly gun friendly, but yet I have noticed that sometimes when at the LGS, two individuals will come in to have the FFL transfer a firearm fairly regularly, and I have done the same, and I "assumed" this MUST be the law of the land as my state is fairly gun friendly. Maybe it isn't so, even in my state, but the FFL won't say anything as it is easy money???
 
You'd have to look at the individual laws for each state and see if a private sale of a handgun must go through a dealer. What state do you live in? That's the starting point.

(EDIT: If this site's info is accurate, about 18 states either require handgun sales go through a dealer, or require buyers to possess a firearms card of some kind. http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/private-gun-sale-laws-by-state.html)

Now, people can ALWAYS go to a dealer to do a transfer if they want to. And many gun folks -- many here at THR, in fact -- believe that a transfer through a dealer gives them some level of protection or separation if somebody does something bad with that gun some day. They actually WANT their sale recorded. The necessity or helpfulness of that dealer transfer is pretty debatable, but one benefit may be that if you really care that the guy buying your gun is "upstanding", if you make him do the transfer through a dealer he'll have to pass the NICS check. Some folks like that the federal government will background check us.
 
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Being in Pennsylvania, it does state that transfer of a handgun must be at a sheriff's office or through an importer, manufacturer, or distributor. Like I said, I thought this to be the case nationally since Pennsylvania is fairly pro-2A. I wonder how this came about in this state. Given that Trump got elected, I won't rush out and sell the modern stuff, but if someone like Hillary gets elected, it's for sale. I have one firearm dating from 1933, and most of the rest is before 1898. A few do date between 1899 and 1933; this is the stuff I would sell. It is ludicrous that such paperwork is necessary on a firearm well over 100 years old.
 
Oh, yes, PA does require all handgun transfers be done through a dealer, which includes both the 4473 and also the PSP's record of the sale.

but if someone like Hillary gets elected, it's for sale.
Ha ha! :) Mine aren't! Rather keep it on hand so I can practice with it. When the goobermint comes for our guns, it would be good to be in practice, you know?!? :D

But hey, if yours go up for sale, gimme a shout! If I can't dissuade you from fear, maybe I can at least get a good deal out of it!
 
One thing also to consider about your dealers and the 4473s.

A local dealer, currently out of business, is facing some serious issues with his forms. (One I have done business with in the past.) The BAFTE now has all his forms.

It seems like he liked selling to individuals who could not pass, or would not submit to a background check. So what he did was add guns to the forms that legitimate customers had filled out recently. That kept his books clean. Obviously the FFL ran into issues when something went wrong with his plan and stories did not match up.

Next time I fill out a form, I am going to ask the dealer to put 'nothing follows' in his portion of the form. Not sure if they are allowed to do this, but am going to try and find a way to do this in case he is not as a good guy as I think.




.
 
If you sell a gun through an FFL or directly to an FFL (like I have when I've sold guns out of state), what information about me goes into the FFL's books? Is there a requirement that an FFL record useful where-acquired information?

It isn't hard to imagine a situation where a stolen firearm that was used in a crime ends up back in "the system", but that still doesn't mean it can be traced backwards to who had it when the crime was committed.
 
If you sell a gun through an FFL or directly to an FFL (like I have when I've sold guns out of state), what information about me goes into the FFL's books? Is there a requirement that an FFL record useful where-acquired information?
The regulation at 27 CFR 478.125(e) requires a licensed dealer to record, no later than the close of the next business day following the date a firearm was received, the date of receipt, name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom the firearm was received, name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), model, serial number, type, and caliber or gauge.

It isn't hard to imagine a situation where a stolen firearm that was used in a crime ends up back in "the system", but that still doesn't mean it can be traced backwards to who had it when the crime was committed.
No, certainly not. It can be traced, via make, model, and serial number, back to the first retail purchaser. Anything further requires legwork and luck. In fact, even if buyer 2, 3, 4, etc. each buy and sell that gun to/through a dealer, the initial trace couldn't link those up. There isn't any direct link -- except for finding owners and asking them -- between that initial 4473 form and any later times that gun happens to go onto a 4473 record, even at the same gun shop, let alone some other shop in some other city or state. The police or FBI or BATFE can't go to their system and query who owns a gun now, or who even who last purchased it from a dealer. All they can do is see where the trail starts.


Unless, of course, you live in some place with mandatory firearms registration. Then all bets are off.
 
There isn't any direct link -- except for finding owners and asking them -- between that initial 4473 form and any later times that gun happens to go onto a 4473 record, even at the same gun shop, let alone some other shop in some other city or state.
I realize that. I just meant that the ATF seems to do okay tracing guns through 4473s. And if I sell a gun through a dealer, they are going to have a record of my name and address that is sufficient to find me and figure out how I got it. But there definitely isn't a database, just a way of using written records to tell who had a gun directly before and after an FFL had it.

Given the nature of the internet, even if you couldn't remember who you FTF'd your gun to, there's a good chance that the emails and IP address of whomever responded to your ad or the phone record of their call could be found. I doubt anyone is going to be all about their privacy if they can establish that they sold a gun BEFORE it was used in a crime.
 
I have one firearm dating from 1933, and most of the rest is before 1898. A few do date between 1899 and 1933; this is the stuff I would sell. It is ludicrous that such paperwork is necessary on a firearm well over 100 years old.

I would be amazed if there is any traceable records available for any of your firearms if the newest was made in 1933 since there was no record keeping of any kind that I know of prior to the 1934 GCA and who knows how many times they may have changed hands without any records before you acquired them. The 4473 did not start until the 1968 law. I don't know what, if any, record keeping existed between 1934 to 1968. But if there was any record keeping (possibly the "Bound book"), I'm sure that most of it has long since disappeared or been eaten by roaches by now.
 
If Hillary, or another like-minded individual, became president, he or she might elect to ban certain weapons, of which there is paperwork regarding them.

Only Congress has the authority to enact ‘bans,’ not a president; hence no firearm ‘bans’ during the Obama Administration.

I might be forced to turn in such firearm for cents on the dollar, or for nothing at all, just because a supreme dictator decided this shall be so.

Actually not.

Again, only Congress could enact such legislation, not someone perceived to be a “supreme dictator.”

And if a ‘ gun confiscation’ measure were to be enacted by Congress – an impossible occurrence – that measure would be challenged in court, enjoined, and invalidated as in violation of the Second Amendment.

Had Clinton been elected, and had you sold all of your ‘post-1898’ guns, four or eight years later you would have come to regret it, as no Federal ‘gun ban’ or ‘confiscation’ would have materialized.

Consequently, concerns about the 4473 or other ‘paper trails’ being used as ‘instruments of confiscation’ are unwarranted and devoid of merit.
 
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