ATF...How many of you have been...

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Essex County

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Realy been hassled? Not to offend High Roaders, but we have a few threads on the ATF wants to talk to Me, They drove past My house, a black hellicopter flew over the house and a satillite has been circileing. I personaly regard the ATF as a minor PITA. As a dealer they tried a couple of " Strawman Purchase " attempts that a four year old could see through. I'd like to be paid well to bumble from one gunshop to another and make a fool of myself. We all know of their blunders, but Id like to hear some real life experiences from High Roaders. Thanks in advance for your imput, Essex
 
I shoot with a couple of ATF Agents. Nice guys.

Never had any "professional" dealing with them though.
 
If I ever end up homeless sitting on a street corner, my sign will read "will work for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms." :D
 
I deal via telephone with the NFA branch of the BATFE on an occasional basis and I can say they have never been anything but extremely helpful and friendly. Apparently this is a fairly recent development, maybe the past 18 months or so. But my phone conversations with them are always pleasant and enjoyable.

In addition, when I have had C&R questions the regular BATFE has been very helpful and polite. They were very helpful when I moved in getting my new license set up, extremely prompt to boot.

It seems that the entire BATFE gets thrown under the bus due to the few bad apples in the bunch. Much like the antis do when a few bad apple gun owners screw things up for everyone. People are so willing to villify the actions of an entire group by judging the actions of just a few. I am not denying that the BATFE has had some major screw ups, but then again there have been gun owners that have inflicted death and destruction on innocents as well.

Should we all be judged for the actions of the Klebold's, Cho's, Oswald's, Whitman's, etc. of the world? I certainly don't think so. Yet many people who have never met a gun owner are willing to group all of us in the same category for what others have done.

Conversely, should and entire agency be berated and denigrated on a non stop basis for the bad decisions its employees have made in the past? Personally I think the BATFE has a very difficult role to fill and for the most part they are doing a fine job. But many would prefer to burn them at the stake when they have never had so much a single interaction with a BATFE agent. Just food for thought.

There is a lot of talk about the "crazy" anti's and the positions they take when they don't have all the facts and just go on feelings. Some gun owners should take a look in the mirror.

I know I will take heat for this post, but oh well, that's life!

My experiences are real world. Not sensationalized T.V. coverage or vague internet legends.
 
FWIW, my interactions with NFA branch over the phone in West Virginia have been very professional, prompt, and courteous.

As a former C&R and full-fledged FFL holder during the Klinton regime, I never had an issue.
 
Back when I had a shop the ATF came to check our records. A regular customer of mine had forgotten to sign a 4473 and my partner didn't catch it. The agent found the error and simply told my partner to have him sign it the next time he came in. No hassle. Some of them are good guys. I think the bad one are the only ones most hear about.
 
Even if the entire staff of the ATF is kind, professional, and spends their spare time rehabilitating crippled puppies, it doesn't matter. They work for an organization which no person who believes in liberty, humanity, or reason would ever willingly work for, except perhaps as a subversive infiltrator.

So long as it exists in any form, it will forever be nothing but an illegal government regime and a tool of a totalitarian state. I will never support it, or its agents, because it should not exist in the first place. They do nothing to serve me and only exist to suppress me.

As far as being civil, that's another matter entirely. Every despicable lying, cheating bastard I've ever known has been charismatic, likable, and civil, but it excuses nothing.

The only ATF agent or personnel I could ever respect would be one who did everything in his power to weaken, subvert, or nullify the organization's authority.
 
They do nothing to serve me and only exist to suppress me.
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Actually, they do make sure nobody is diluting your wine with anti-freeze. :D

I've never had a problem with them on a personal level. Much like the IRS, I wish they didn't exist and perhaps we can legislate them away, but until that day, we just have to put up with their arcane laws.
 
Martha and Scooter

Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby were both convicted of things that were not the original "crimes" being investigated. While both were in the larger sense "political" prosecutions I see no benefit to match the risk of dealing with a federal agency with out counsel.

Isn't there a gunstore that they are trying to put out of buisiness for ticky tack violations? Bud"s?
pete
 
I've dealt with NFA Branch a lot, and I have never had any problems with them. In fact, I am always treated very nicely by them.
 
Exposure said:
I think the BATFE has a very difficult role to fill and for the most part they are doing a fine job.
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It looks like a very difficult job to me. Taking full auto weapons and explosives away from criminals who don't want to give them to you looks like a pretty daunting task.

Of course the ATF is going to make mistakes - human beings make mistakes. Does the fact that human beings make mistakes shock and horrify you?

That shocked me when I was 18, but it doesn't surprise me any more. The only way to avoid making mistakes is to avoid taking any action at all.

My heart goes out to people who ware seriously injured or killed as the result such mistakes. There is no way that we can bring back a life. Reparations are in no way a complete restitution, but they are what we have accepted in our society. When people are harmed in such cases they (or sadly their heirs) can take the agency responsible to court.

If you decided that weapons and explosives should be monitored - and I do - then you have to accept mistakes that go along with that monitoring.

The only alternatives I see:
  • Avoid monitoring - let the Tim McVeigh's of this world blow up a day care center every time their candidate doesn't get elected.
  • Count on angels to do the monitoring.
  • Ask people do the monitoring, and accept that they make mistakes.

Mike
 
I have never had any problem with them and they were quite civil and professional in the Cho situation and its aftermath. Euclidean, all I can say is there is little you said that I agree with.
 
"and a satillite has been circileing."

I would like to hear more about this.

John
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Didn't you know? Find a place outside the city on a night with clear skies. You can see the satellites crossing the sky. Get some binoculars if you need them. :)

You initials are very interesting. :D
 
I have never had dealings with the ATF.

I have dealt with the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality with work. They are always very polite and helpful. They will still try to get you on a violation and fine you, but they do it very politely. :)

History has a lot to do with dealing with the govt also. If you or your company has lied to an agency or gotten caught before, it hurts your credibility and may affect how they deal with you in the event of something happens.
 
I work on a ATF regional Arson Task Force. Great bunch of guys but they tend to assign the new guys to us for training.

Having a FFL I deal with the Inspectors from time to time. They have always been great to deal with.
 
Didn't you know? Find a place outside the city on a night with clear skies. You can see the satellites crossing the sky. Get some binoculars if you need them.
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I really hate to threadjack, but I gotta. This sounds like a dig at the tinfoil hit crowd... but as I recollect it's actually true. It's been years now but I used to use a piece of software called Xephem (http://www.clearskyinstitute.com/xephem/) on a Linux box as I sat outside star gazing. Really cool. You pick your location in the world and it maps out all the stars, planets, and yes, satelites. There's hundreds of things you can do with it.

As I recollect it's fairly easy to spot a satelite if one is in the area, but the only ones you'll see are non-communications related satelites, which includes "spy" or photograph taking satelites. All communications satelites (TV, radio, etc) are located above the equator and put into orbit that will keep them above the exact same spot on the ground all the time. They're place just far enough away and given a "push" to match the earth's rotation so that as gravity pulls them down they move forward an appropriate distance which keeps them in synch with the earth. It's called a geosynchronous orbit. To achieve this they actually move, if my math is correct, around 3400mp/h.

"Spy" (and GPS) statelites must move just as fast to keep themselves in orbit, but they're useless unless they travel on a path less than true with the equator. If they didn't they'd only be able to take pictures of the same spot over and over again. Their distance to the earth's surface is about 22,000 miles and they're chugging along at 3400mp/h so they tend to stand out against stars or other planets in our solar system. This makes them fairly easy to pick out. They're the ones moving -- and moving fast when compared to everything else in the sky.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

I've had, at most, one dealing with an actual ATF agent. He was either that or just plain crazy, but I can usually spot crazy, and this guy wasn't. Name given was Mike Murphy and it was out at Richard Celata's place (KT Ordnance) a month or so after his raid by the ATF. Fellow was out their for Rick's open house and trying to get anybody there to sell him a weapon, but kept asking for illegal things. The first day he wanted a .22Mag with a silencer, the next he was just looking for a .357 magnum. In great detail he explained that nobody would sell him a gun because he wasn't an MT resident, but wanted one anyway. At one point he ventured into the land of the white supremacists and while "he didn't agree with the KKK, at least they report the truth" he explained that black folks in the cities were kidnapping white women and children and forcing them into prostitution.

So, I guess my only personal beef with what was possibly an ATF agent was: 1) Trying to talk me into doing something illegal and 2) Harshing my mellow as my buddy and I got our first chance shooting at 600 yards in our lives.
 
It seems that the entire BATFE gets thrown under the bus due to the few bad apples in the bunch. Much like the antis do when a few bad apple gun owners screw things up for everyone. People are so willing to villify the actions of an entire group by judging the actions of just a few.

Exposure that about sums it up all around, one of the most intelligent posts I've seen regarding ATF. The anarchists, cop bashers, and those critical of anything any govt does need to read your quote. Everyone from the govt is not "out to get you".

We don't have a perfect system here but those who refer to any type of LE action as jackbooted thugs and refer to our system as totalitarian should maybe go to North Korea or Cuba and see what those terms mean.
 
It looks like a very difficult job to me. Taking full auto weapons and explosives away from criminals who don't want to give them to you looks like a pretty daunting task.
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That's why they prefer to concentrate on entrapment and harassment at gun shows.
 
"Didn't you know? Find a place outside the city on a night with clear skies. You can see the satellites crossing the sky."

Crossing the sky ain't circling his house.

My initials, and my father's, grandfather's, etc., predate any government agency. Did you notice the thing about my initials all by yourself? ;)

John
 
I have signed more 4473's than personal checks and hold an FFL03, and ATF has yet to contact me. I'm quite sure that I appear on certain lists, but must not be too much of a concern.
 
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