ATF...How many of you have been...
- Thread starter Essex County
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eltorrente
Member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2007
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Some of you guys are kooks. I think the tin-foil hats you've been wearing has cut off the blood supply to your brains.
ctdonath
Member
IIRC, during the opening operation they shot Sammy and killed his dog. Intentional or not, sounds inappropriately violent to me, especially as the whole issue was over an alleged non-payment of a $200 tax due to a tube being allegedly 0.5" too short - and that due to some variant of attempted entrapment.
To the point of this thread, apparently a notable case of ATF hassling snowballed into people ending up dead. I'm concluding that the ATF rides a very narrow line: stay on the right side, and they can be very good to you; cross it, and things can/will turn very bad very quickly.
I smell thread drift.
To the point of this thread, apparently a notable case of ATF hassling snowballed into people ending up dead. I'm concluding that the ATF rides a very narrow line: stay on the right side, and they can be very good to you; cross it, and things can/will turn very bad very quickly.
I smell thread drift.
ctdonath said:
From the marshals perspective, they were fleeing armed men who were tracking them with a dog. I don't have the page number in front of me - but you can see that in the report. They were trying to escape, and the dog was leading the two Weavers and Harris to them (the Marshals). And no one doubts that Sammy was shooting at US Marshals - if I hand a 14 year old boy a gun and take him into a battle with me, he's a combatant.
I am not sure that I would characterize the whole issue was over the non-payment of a $200 tax.
I think the critical issue is the right of the people to compel an individual to appear to face charges vs. Randy and Viki's theory that they only accepted the law of "Yam-Yeshua Saxon Israel" (or whatever Vicki called the Aryan Nation deity).
If the issue was really the $200 tax, Randy could have come in and dealt with the matter with no one dying. What he was willing to die for is his rejection of the right of the people to haul him into court at all - witness Vicki's writings that they considered the US Government a servant of the "New World Order".
Back a little more to topic. If there were to exist an extreme groups committed to the violent overthrow of the US Government, and that group were to start buying weapons and explosives, would/should any arm of the government monitor such a group? Does it matter if the ATF, FBI, Coast Guard, US Marshals, or Secret Service monitor them?
I am not arguing that Randy Weaver was (or was not) a member of such a group - I am just wondering if you agree that the Federal government has the responsibility to monitor such groups under the the clause the gives the Congress right to suppress insurrections and repel invasions?
Mike
feedthehogs
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Was called into the local ATF office twice as a witness to incindents at the local gun store where I used to spend a lot of time.
I found the agents cordial but guarded.
The second time they forgot to follow up with the gun shop owner which resulted in said gun shop being broken into and 18 hand guns stolen.
I found the agents cordial but guarded.
The second time they forgot to follow up with the gun shop owner which resulted in said gun shop being broken into and 18 hand guns stolen.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Weaver's alleged connection with Aryan Nations was pretty well
investigated by FBI Wayne Manis and Kenneth Weiss in 1985.
Weaver was not considered tied to the violent factions of
the racist movement by Manis, who had handled the Bob
Mathews case.
ATF Herb Byerly approached Weaver to become a snitch
(a) because he hung out with people like Frank Kumnick and
Charles Howarth that the ATF was interrested in; and
(b) because he criticised them for being too radical and
going off the deep end.
AT trial the jury acquitted Weaver on the gun charge, and
the only possible defense was entrapment. It turns out
in the OPR report that Weaver walked the ATF undercover
agent to his truck and showed him a Remingtom 870 and
the undercover agent pointed out where he wanted it cut
and the undercover agent allegedly did not tell his handler
that he had given Weaver explicit instruction and had seen
the gun before it was cut.
One of the jurors in the Weaver trial said, yes, the government
should keep tabs on radicals, but the way the Weaver case was
handled was the wrong way to do it.
The proper role of law enforcement is to keep the peace, not
to push people into a corner and crush them if they lash out,
just to assert the hegemony of the state.
investigated by FBI Wayne Manis and Kenneth Weiss in 1985.
Weaver was not considered tied to the violent factions of
the racist movement by Manis, who had handled the Bob
Mathews case.
ATF Herb Byerly approached Weaver to become a snitch
(a) because he hung out with people like Frank Kumnick and
Charles Howarth that the ATF was interrested in; and
(b) because he criticised them for being too radical and
going off the deep end.
AT trial the jury acquitted Weaver on the gun charge, and
the only possible defense was entrapment. It turns out
in the OPR report that Weaver walked the ATF undercover
agent to his truck and showed him a Remingtom 870 and
the undercover agent pointed out where he wanted it cut
and the undercover agent allegedly did not tell his handler
that he had given Weaver explicit instruction and had seen
the gun before it was cut.
One of the jurors in the Weaver trial said, yes, the government
should keep tabs on radicals, but the way the Weaver case was
handled was the wrong way to do it.
The proper role of law enforcement is to keep the peace, not
to push people into a corner and crush them if they lash out,
just to assert the hegemony of the state.
That may have been a proper verdict, it seems quite likely to have been. It's also the case that a successful entrapment defense is more about the guilt of the police than about the innocence of the defendant. Even your quote makes it sound like the issue was less Mr. Weaver's intent/willingness to modify the weapon than the bumbling incompetence of the undercover purchaser.
While I of course support the verdict, doesn't it seem likely to you that Mr. Weaver had sold other illegally modified weapons to white supremacists?
We can't know that - and we have an acquittal. But if most of us were selling a shotgun, and the guy to whom we were selling the shotgun asked us to cut it to an illegal length, wouldn't we boot him out of our house?
So I suspect the Feds found a man who was probably regularly breaking a federal law, and who might have/or be able to obtain information that they wanted. I don't know, but that's how many criminal prosecution proceed.
Do you agree that the Feds have the right and/or obligation to monitor extreme groups that call for the overthrow of the government?
Mike
Carl N. Brown
Member
doesn't it seem likely to you that Mr. Weaver had sold other illegally modified weapons to white supremacists
If that had been the case, given the publicity given this case,
such evidence would have come out by now. Both the DoJ OPR
report and the senate judiciary commitee report noted that
Weaver had NOT shown a propensity to deal in illegal weapons
before his dealings with Gus Magisono aka Kenneth Fadeley the
ATF undercover operative. The only illegal weapons associated
with Randy Weaver were the two he made to the specifications
of the ATF agent. Weaver showed Magisono the Remington 870
unaltered: if the goal of ATf was to take weapons off the street
he could have bought the 870 street-legal. When the Weaver
family was taken down, all the Weavers' guns were laid out for
the news media: all were legal firearms and most had been bought
legally on FF4473s at Truman's Gun Shop in Grand Rapids Iowa
before the Weavers moved to Idaho.
Do you agree that the Feds have the right and/or obligation to
monitor extreme groups that call for the overthrow of the government
Yes.
The problem I have with the handling of the Weavers, the Branch
Davidians, Vincent Lephart's American Christian Life Movement
(aka John Africa's MOVE), is the police response in those cases
scare me more than the Weavers, Koresh or John Africa ever could.
Randy and Vicki Weaver exhibited abysmal judgement at Ruby Ridge,
but so did ATF, the USAO, USMS and FBI. The Weavers were civilians.
The ATF, US Attorney Office, USMS and FBI are supposed to be
trained, professionals, and should be held to a higher standard than
the Weavers, Koreshs or John Africas.
The handling of Ruby Ridge gives the impression rightfully or wrongfully
that ATF and FBI are willing to use maximum force with minimum
judgement and whitewash and cover up their mistakes. The success
of proper law enforcement depends on public confidence in fair play
and even-handedness.
If that had been the case, given the publicity given this case,
such evidence would have come out by now. Both the DoJ OPR
report and the senate judiciary commitee report noted that
Weaver had NOT shown a propensity to deal in illegal weapons
before his dealings with Gus Magisono aka Kenneth Fadeley the
ATF undercover operative. The only illegal weapons associated
with Randy Weaver were the two he made to the specifications
of the ATF agent. Weaver showed Magisono the Remington 870
unaltered: if the goal of ATf was to take weapons off the street
he could have bought the 870 street-legal. When the Weaver
family was taken down, all the Weavers' guns were laid out for
the news media: all were legal firearms and most had been bought
legally on FF4473s at Truman's Gun Shop in Grand Rapids Iowa
before the Weavers moved to Idaho.
Do you agree that the Feds have the right and/or obligation to
monitor extreme groups that call for the overthrow of the government
Yes.
The problem I have with the handling of the Weavers, the Branch
Davidians, Vincent Lephart's American Christian Life Movement
(aka John Africa's MOVE), is the police response in those cases
scare me more than the Weavers, Koresh or John Africa ever could.
Randy and Vicki Weaver exhibited abysmal judgement at Ruby Ridge,
but so did ATF, the USAO, USMS and FBI. The Weavers were civilians.
The ATF, US Attorney Office, USMS and FBI are supposed to be
trained, professionals, and should be held to a higher standard than
the Weavers, Koreshs or John Africas.
The handling of Ruby Ridge gives the impression rightfully or wrongfully
that ATF and FBI are willing to use maximum force with minimum
judgement and whitewash and cover up their mistakes. The success
of proper law enforcement depends on public confidence in fair play
and even-handedness.
skua44
Member
I had an FFL in the 80s and up into the 90s. In '94 my work took me out of the country for 6 mos. As my license was coming up for renewal in Nov and I would be unable to do the renewal at that time from the Ross Ice Shelf in Antarctica I asked to renew early or have the license on "hold" till my return in Feb '95. Not only no, but hell no! Not only that, but since I was away for such a length of time every year don't bother to try to get another. This was the Atlanta office. My dealings with the Dallas office was always easy, no muss no fuss. Atlanta was always the opposite. This was also about the time the Clinton administration was doing all they could to yank licenses.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Clinton administration had a goal of arbitrarily reducing the number
of FFLs by forty percent. You cannot pursue a licensing policy
like that without total disregard for due process or equal justice
under the law.
of FFLs by forty percent. You cannot pursue a licensing policy
like that without total disregard for due process or equal justice
under the law.
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