ATF...How many of you have been...
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Carl N. Brown
Member
Lon Horiuchi was FBI HRT sniper, not ATF, and he was just
following orders based on bad intel from HQ.
Now, Herb Byerly, the ATF agent handler who approached Randy Weaver
to become a snitch was a real piece of work. Before he approached
Weaver as a connection to Chuck Howarth, Byerly ran a background
check (Nov 1989) and Weaver did not have as much as a traffic ticket.
After Weaver flipped Byerly's business card in his face said, Go to H I
wont be a snitch, Byerly wrote memoes that Weaver was a bank robber
and had criminal convictions. When called on those memoes by the
Senate Judiciary Committee, Byerly tried to pass them off as typos. (!?)
That is the kind of guy that gives ATF a bad name, and yes, he
is not typical of ATF agents, but during the 1980s and 1990s there
were a few too many like that.
following orders based on bad intel from HQ.
Now, Herb Byerly, the ATF agent handler who approached Randy Weaver
to become a snitch was a real piece of work. Before he approached
Weaver as a connection to Chuck Howarth, Byerly ran a background
check (Nov 1989) and Weaver did not have as much as a traffic ticket.
After Weaver flipped Byerly's business card in his face said, Go to H I
wont be a snitch, Byerly wrote memoes that Weaver was a bank robber
and had criminal convictions. When called on those memoes by the
Senate Judiciary Committee, Byerly tried to pass them off as typos. (!?)
That is the kind of guy that gives ATF a bad name, and yes, he
is not typical of ATF agents, but during the 1980s and 1990s there
were a few too many like that.
Would that be Lon Horiuchi of the "Ruby Ridge/Weaver Family Reunion" fame? <dang, Carl beat me to it> I can't figure out the puppy stomper, though...
I'm sure David Koresh (aka Vernon Wayne Howell) and the Branch Davidians would chime in on this one, if not for the fact that most of them are now deceased.
I'm not here to bash the BATFE but a couple of catastropic s*#t storms in the national media can overshadow all the hard work and polite service these guys put in. I'm glad I don't have to do their job!
I'm sure David Koresh (aka Vernon Wayne Howell) and the Branch Davidians would chime in on this one, if not for the fact that most of them are now deceased.
I'm not here to bash the BATFE but a couple of catastropic s*#t storms in the national media can overshadow all the hard work and polite service these guys put in. I'm glad I don't have to do their job!
JesseL
Member
RPCVYemen said:
For most government actions, I would find that a perfectly acceptable solution. There is hardly a problem in existence that can't be made worse with a little government 'help'.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Thread topic:
ATF...How many of you have been... Realy been hassled?
Let's see. I got a full and informative answer to a question on
legality of an original Broomhandle Mauser with reproduction
shoulder stock/holster from the Firearms Technology Branch.
A relative got Form 4 approved for a Ruger Mark III with
suppressor (really cool looking tax stamp if you're that far into
stamp collecting).
And I witnessed what most present believed was an incredibly
clumsy "straw man purchase" test by guys who did not deny
the dealer's accusation that they were rookie enforcement agents.
What I have heard bad and credible about BATF is late 1980s and
early 1990s problems in news reports and OIG and OPR reports.
ATF...How many of you have been... Realy been hassled?
Let's see. I got a full and informative answer to a question on
legality of an original Broomhandle Mauser with reproduction
shoulder stock/holster from the Firearms Technology Branch.
A relative got Form 4 approved for a Ruger Mark III with
suppressor (really cool looking tax stamp if you're that far into
stamp collecting).
And I witnessed what most present believed was an incredibly
clumsy "straw man purchase" test by guys who did not deny
the dealer's accusation that they were rookie enforcement agents.
What I have heard bad and credible about BATF is late 1980s and
early 1990s problems in news reports and OIG and OPR reports.
JesseL said:
I have lived in places with no (effective) government. Mogadishu in the late 80's was not a very fun or secure place. Whoever is most ruthless or has the most bad guys on the payroll wins. Luckily, when I was living there, Westerners were (to a large extent) not under attack. But it was pretty brutal for the locals.
I did have the joy of seeing my old neighborhood on national news in the States, when I came back. I lived very close to a compound we called "K10" that was the tallest building in the neighborhood (across from the "new" American Embassy).
I would agree that there are many government programs with issues, but in general, imposing law and order is pretty hard to do without government action of some kind.
I would prefer that some government agency keep an eye on who is buying plutonium, for example. Or even dynamite.
Mike
hotpig
Member
Carl, do not come into this thread and cloud the issue with facts. You ruined a lot of guys comments that they posted based on gun shop and Internet rumors.
Thank you for trying to ruin a perfectly good bash thread.
Thank you for trying to ruin a perfectly good bash thread.
Carl N. Brown said:
Actually, I just looked at the court docs from Idaho v. Horiuchi. There were some screwups, but the intel given to Horiuchi looks factual.
http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/web/newopinions.nsf/0/0a3eecf263a1d0c788256927007a742b?OpenDocument
Isn't everything in that set of statements true? A Deputy U.S. Marshal was killed by one of Harris, Randall Weaver or Vicki Weaver, Randy Weaver had been in a special forces unit, etc.
I am not arguing the whole case, but it looks like Horiuchi's intel was all correct.
Mike
Hawk
Member
When the Atlanta licensing location moved offices my C&R renewal was lost for over a year. It remains lost - figured it'd be easier to leave it expired for another year then apply for a new one.
However, they were nice during the 3 or 4 times I called - actually said they found it once then lost it again.
For a while the main web site was showing the old number for Atlanta licensing which turned out to be a dating service. When I explained this to DC to get the new Atlanta number it stood out as the one time an ATF employee actually laughed out loud on the phone.
Pretty nice to deal with but had it been a 01FFL, I'd be out of business - I probably would have tried harder to jar it loose though.
However, they were nice during the 3 or 4 times I called - actually said they found it once then lost it again.
For a while the main web site was showing the old number for Atlanta licensing which turned out to be a dating service. When I explained this to DC to get the new Atlanta number it stood out as the one time an ATF employee actually laughed out loud on the phone.
Pretty nice to deal with but had it been a 01FFL, I'd be out of business - I probably would have tried harder to jar it loose though.
Carl N. Brown
Member
One, the intel used by FBI SAC Eugene Glenn site commander and
Dick Rogers HRT commander in Idaho came from FBI HQ through
USMS HQ, from the marshals in Idaho. And it was badly garbled
in transmission from source to destination.
Two, after Eugene Glenn and Dick Rogers got info directly from the
marshals involved, Glenn and Rogers revoked the infamous Ruby
Ridge Rules of Engagement.
The intel used 22 Aug 1992 was wrong on so many counts.
There was a firefight in the woods 500 yards from the cabin
in a location called the "Y" actually a "T" intersection of the
trails.
There had been a nearly three month hiatus in surveillance on
the Weaver family, making the Weavers believe the government
had given up. Surveillance was restarted 21 Aug 1992.
Three marshals on a recon mission with orders to avoid contact
with the Weavers spooked the Weaver dogs. They retreated from
cabin area through the woods. Randy Weaver went down a
logging road and the boys Sammy Weaver (14) and Kevin Harris (25)
followed the dog Striker through the woods.
According to Marshals Art Roderick and Larry Cooper, Randy Weaver
encountered the Marshals at the "Y". One marshal yelled "Back Off"
and one marshal yelled "Freeze" and Randy yelled "F*** You" and
ran away. Minutes later, the dog, then the boys, came out of the
woods into the "Y".
Marshal Art Roderick fired one round of .223 from an M16 and killed the dog.
Sammy Weaver fired three rounds of .223 from a Mini14 and hit nothing.
Marshal Bill Degan fired seven rounds of .223 from an M16
and one round hit Sammy's elbow.
Kevin Harris fired one .30-06 round from a boltaction 1917 and killed Degan.
Larry Cooper fired six rounds at Kevin Harris and hit Sammy in the back.
Kevin Harris fired one .30-06 that missed Cooper.
If I counted correctly that's nineteen rounds, and the Marshals, Kevin
Harris and the neighbor who heard the gunfight said it lasted less than
two minutes.
The participants in the "Y" shootout were US Marshals Art Roderick, Bill
Degan and Larry Cooper, Sammy Weaverr and Kevin Harris. Randy and
Vicki Weaver were not involved and Larry Cooper's own statement was
that Randy Weaver ran away before the shoot-out. Neither Art
Roderick nor Larry Cooper mentioned Vicki as a participant either.
Now, when Harris arrived at the cabin and told Randy that Sammy was
dead, Randy emptied Sara Weaver's rifle in the air at the cabin. The cabin
was not in line of sight of the "Y" about 500 yards west of the cabin.
This was about fifteen minutes after the shoot out, and added to
the confusion.
US Marshal Dave Hunt told USMS HQ that there had been no gunfire
after 11:45am 21 Aug 1992 (that was about the time that Kevin Harris
told Randy at the cabin that Sammy was dead).
At 9:00am 22 Aug 1992 HRTCommander Dick Rogers briefed the
HRT snipers that the marshals were still pinned down by gunfire.
The last gunfire was 11:45am 21 Aug 1992 the day before.
That is bad intel in my book.
No one outside the Weaver family was at the cabin on Ruby Ridge.
There was Randy, Vicki, Sara (16), Rachel (10 yr), and
Elisheba (10 mo) and Kevin Harris (25) who had lived with the
Weavers since he was a teenager. The belief that the Weavers
had supporters or backup was a false belief.
The statement quoted is true in the sense that it is what Horiuchi
was told and it did influence his judgement. Most of "facts" in
what Horiuchi was told were not true. Some were. The Weavers
seldomn left the cabin unarmed. Randy had been in the Special
Forces and was a military policeman and operated construction
equipment at Ft. Bragg.
Fourteen rounds fired by three marshals versus five rounds fired by
Kevin and Sammy hardly sounds like "indiscriminate fire." Two NYPD
have fired more rounds than that at someone trying to show them
his wallet.
Dick Rogers HRT commander in Idaho came from FBI HQ through
USMS HQ, from the marshals in Idaho. And it was badly garbled
in transmission from source to destination.
Two, after Eugene Glenn and Dick Rogers got info directly from the
marshals involved, Glenn and Rogers revoked the infamous Ruby
Ridge Rules of Engagement.
The intel used 22 Aug 1992 was wrong on so many counts.
There was a firefight in the woods 500 yards from the cabin
in a location called the "Y" actually a "T" intersection of the
trails.
There had been a nearly three month hiatus in surveillance on
the Weaver family, making the Weavers believe the government
had given up. Surveillance was restarted 21 Aug 1992.
Three marshals on a recon mission with orders to avoid contact
with the Weavers spooked the Weaver dogs. They retreated from
cabin area through the woods. Randy Weaver went down a
logging road and the boys Sammy Weaver (14) and Kevin Harris (25)
followed the dog Striker through the woods.
According to Marshals Art Roderick and Larry Cooper, Randy Weaver
encountered the Marshals at the "Y". One marshal yelled "Back Off"
and one marshal yelled "Freeze" and Randy yelled "F*** You" and
ran away. Minutes later, the dog, then the boys, came out of the
woods into the "Y".
Marshal Art Roderick fired one round of .223 from an M16 and killed the dog.
Sammy Weaver fired three rounds of .223 from a Mini14 and hit nothing.
Marshal Bill Degan fired seven rounds of .223 from an M16
and one round hit Sammy's elbow.
Kevin Harris fired one .30-06 round from a boltaction 1917 and killed Degan.
Larry Cooper fired six rounds at Kevin Harris and hit Sammy in the back.
Kevin Harris fired one .30-06 that missed Cooper.
If I counted correctly that's nineteen rounds, and the Marshals, Kevin
Harris and the neighbor who heard the gunfight said it lasted less than
two minutes.
The participants in the "Y" shootout were US Marshals Art Roderick, Bill
Degan and Larry Cooper, Sammy Weaverr and Kevin Harris. Randy and
Vicki Weaver were not involved and Larry Cooper's own statement was
that Randy Weaver ran away before the shoot-out. Neither Art
Roderick nor Larry Cooper mentioned Vicki as a participant either.
Now, when Harris arrived at the cabin and told Randy that Sammy was
dead, Randy emptied Sara Weaver's rifle in the air at the cabin. The cabin
was not in line of sight of the "Y" about 500 yards west of the cabin.
This was about fifteen minutes after the shoot out, and added to
the confusion.
US Marshal Dave Hunt told USMS HQ that there had been no gunfire
after 11:45am 21 Aug 1992 (that was about the time that Kevin Harris
told Randy at the cabin that Sammy was dead).
At 9:00am 22 Aug 1992 HRTCommander Dick Rogers briefed the
HRT snipers that the marshals were still pinned down by gunfire.
The last gunfire was 11:45am 21 Aug 1992 the day before.
That is bad intel in my book.
No one outside the Weaver family was at the cabin on Ruby Ridge.
There was Randy, Vicki, Sara (16), Rachel (10 yr), and
Elisheba (10 mo) and Kevin Harris (25) who had lived with the
Weavers since he was a teenager. The belief that the Weavers
had supporters or backup was a false belief.
The statement quoted is true in the sense that it is what Horiuchi
was told and it did influence his judgement. Most of "facts" in
what Horiuchi was told were not true. Some were. The Weavers
seldomn left the cabin unarmed. Randy had been in the Special
Forces and was a military policeman and operated construction
equipment at Ft. Bragg.
Fourteen rounds fired by three marshals versus five rounds fired by
Kevin and Sammy hardly sounds like "indiscriminate fire." Two NYPD
have fired more rounds than that at someone trying to show them
his wallet.
The court summary of the intel made a number of claims:
- that a Deputy U.S. Marshal had been killed in a fire fight near the Weaver residence;
- that during the fire fight, the Marshals were pinned by indiscriminate fire;
- that either Harris, Randall Weaver or Vicki Weaver was involved in the shooting of the marshal;
- that Randall Weaver had been in the military attached to a special forces unit;
- that the individuals in the cabin had a habit of coming out of the cabin armed;
- and that Randall Weaver may have called in or had assistance from other individuals either living in the area or from outside the area moving into the location.
It appears to me that from your own story, every one of these is a true statement. Which one is not true? You don't need to recant the whole story, just tell me which statement is false.
If this "bad intel" (that happens to be true) is an example the incompetence or malicious intent of the ATF or FBI, I don't see it. Maybe someone called a "Y" in a trial a "T" - is that the substance of your objections?
If you shoot and kill a U.S. Marshal, expect them to come at you shooting. I have no objection to that. I would think that any honorable man would move his family out of the line of fire, but maybe that's too much to expect.
Looks like the screw up here is pretty squarely on Randy Weaver's shoulders, not the ATF.
Mike
Carl N. Brown
Member
See US Department of Justice
Office of Professional Responsibility
Bermann Commission Task Force Report
on the Ruby Ridge incident.
Most of it should still be posted at Lexis Connect.
Office of Professional Responsibility
Bermann Commission Task Force Report
on the Ruby Ridge incident.
Most of it should still be posted at Lexis Connect.
macadore
Member
They appear to have been cleaning up their act since Waco. Of course another Clinton, or worse, could change that.
ctdonath
Member
Correct, but dangerously incomplete.
IIRC, the deceased agent in question achieved room temperature as part of the opening operation, which was inappropriately violent and completely unwarranted.
Horiuchi's intel, correct as it strictly speaking may have been, did not warrant shooting an unarmed woman holding a baby (mistake or not).
Waco and Ruby Ridge both taught the feds, in short order, that the 2nd Amendment means something. The citizens involved may have lost, but the government won a Phyrric victory and learned not to try that crap again.
ctdonath said:
If you read the report that Carl N. Brown refers to - the first operation comes through nearly unscathed. The report concludes that the US Marshals did not seek a violent confrontation with the Weavers, etc. A lot of the report is redacted, but you can look for yourself.
Here's the quote from page 95 - the Marshals actions were in fact not only warranted (literally and figuratively), but required by statute:
The account of the "Shooting at the Y" starts on page 108. The report concludes that the Marshals had no intent to confront the Weavers, and debunks all of the rumors about that event. Here is the conclusion on page 126:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opr/readingroom/rubyreport85_125.pdf
http://www.usdoj.gov/opr/readingroom/rubyreport126_165.pdf
Note that the report is critical of the HRT rules of engagement, but not of the US Marshals.
Mike
Problem is had Weaver not been set-up the whole thing would not have happened. All these folks would be alive today. This was in the day when the BATF was sending messages, we will control anyone who owns a firearm. This and Waco and many other small incidents prove this to be true. This was also during a time when congress was being pressed to do away with this out fit and turn it over to the FBI.
Old LBJ was pressed to close down this old out dated agency known for closing down stills in the back woods. They were only Alcohol and Tobacco in those days. LBJ was the most Anti-Gun President we have ever had. With his new 1968 Gun Laws he needed a strike Force of Police to enforce it. So in one mighty blow he got the gun laws and added Firearms to get the ATF later ATFE.
If you think they are nice little lambs, wait until the Dems take over the White House again. They will once more become the liberal enforcement arm of the left.
Old LBJ was pressed to close down this old out dated agency known for closing down stills in the back woods. They were only Alcohol and Tobacco in those days. LBJ was the most Anti-Gun President we have ever had. With his new 1968 Gun Laws he needed a strike Force of Police to enforce it. So in one mighty blow he got the gun laws and added Firearms to get the ATF later ATFE.
If you think they are nice little lambs, wait until the Dems take over the White House again. They will once more become the liberal enforcement arm of the left.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Please stop referring to the BATFE by the 3-letter acronym. It gives them far too much prestige and credit, and also they like it.
They are not peers or equals with the FBI, CIA et al. They are thugs.
Using "ATF" further legitimizes them as mainstream or normal. BATFE sounds ridiculous. It also brings more attention to the fact that they regulate too many things, all of which do not need any type of regulating or taxation.
They are not peers or equals with the FBI, CIA et al. They are thugs.
Using "ATF" further legitimizes them as mainstream or normal. BATFE sounds ridiculous. It also brings more attention to the fact that they regulate too many things, all of which do not need any type of regulating or taxation.
For 9 years I had an FFL and operated from my home address. I was inspected 3 times and each time the agents were professional and courteous. They politely made suggestions and recommendations on a couple of minor things and commended me for my meticulous record keeping. They always thanked me for my cooperation and apologized for having bothered me with their visits (which were always arranged at my convenience via a telephone call). I know there are horror stories about abusive agents but that was never my experience.
Deanimator
Member
+100,000,000
I ABSOLUTELY refuse to refer to them by anything other than [depending upon time frame] BATF[E].
And I do it because it's contrary to their delusions of adequacy.
Carl N. Brown
Member
With the OPR report, the devil is in the details, not the summaries.
Horiuchi was told that "hundreds" of rounds had been fired.
- Nineteen rounds were fired in the shooting at the "Y"
Horiuchi was told that Marshal Degan was shot first and did not shoot.
- Degan fired seven rounds before he was shot. Art Roderick and
Sammy Weaver fired four rounds total before that over the dog.
Degan was firing to cover Roderick. harris fired to try to protect
Sammy Weaver.
- At trial Count Five: Kevin Harris aided and abetted by Randy and
Vicki Weaver, murder of Bill Degan, ended in acquittal: the jury
found Harris not guilty and the only possible grounds available
to the jury to acquit was self-defense.
The info given at the HRT sniper briefing 22 Aug about the 21 Aug
was wrong in many ways. It was not until Mon 24 Aug, that FBI
SAC Eugene Glenn first checked the interviews of the marshals
involved in the 21 Aug shootout. Site commander Glenn (SAC Salt
Lake City) and assistant manager William D. Gore (SAC Seattle)
found that the marshal debriefings and a review of the BATF case
called into question every assumption on which the original FBI
response was based. Life and death decisions had not been made
based on facts from agents in the field: they had been made
based on worst case scenarios surmised by bureaucrats in
Washington DC.
Horiuchi was told that "hundreds" of rounds had been fired.
- Nineteen rounds were fired in the shooting at the "Y"
Horiuchi was told that Marshal Degan was shot first and did not shoot.
- Degan fired seven rounds before he was shot. Art Roderick and
Sammy Weaver fired four rounds total before that over the dog.
Degan was firing to cover Roderick. harris fired to try to protect
Sammy Weaver.
- At trial Count Five: Kevin Harris aided and abetted by Randy and
Vicki Weaver, murder of Bill Degan, ended in acquittal: the jury
found Harris not guilty and the only possible grounds available
to the jury to acquit was self-defense.
The info given at the HRT sniper briefing 22 Aug about the 21 Aug
was wrong in many ways. It was not until Mon 24 Aug, that FBI
SAC Eugene Glenn first checked the interviews of the marshals
involved in the 21 Aug shootout. Site commander Glenn (SAC Salt
Lake City) and assistant manager William D. Gore (SAC Seattle)
found that the marshal debriefings and a review of the BATF case
called into question every assumption on which the original FBI
response was based. Life and death decisions had not been made
based on facts from agents in the field: they had been made
based on worst case scenarios surmised by bureaucrats in
Washington DC.
30 cal slob
Member
wasn't the first time someone from his clan killed a woman holding a baby, i'm sure.
Carl N. Brown said:
Read the section of the report - the report you cited - and see if there is any evidence to support this version of events.
Page 108:
Page 124:
Where are you getting your version of events? Your story closely matches that of Randy Weaver's defense attorney, as quotes in page 148 of the report.
I have no issue with your quoting the defense attorney - but it might be useful to point out that you are quoting a defense attorney (who is under no obligation to tell the truth), and that many of the defense attorney's claims were rebutted in the report.
Mike
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