Blackbeard
Member
Just curious - what are the recordkeeping requirements for a FFL? What happens if records are destroyed by fire, for example?
ATF on the prowl
- Thread starter LT1coupe
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Deanimator
Member
Their own paperwork is apparently in a shambles and they're willing to LIE UNDER OATH about it.
Under THOSE circumstances, there's NOTHING you can do.
WRT to prescription drugs, I suspect the prices have a lot more to do with the pharmaceutical companies buying themselves a Congress and a President than anything else. Actually, they just had to buy themselves a Vice President, and he pulled the strings.
And then invoked executive privilege to cover it all up - well, executive privilege and Jesus ...I personally don't object a bit to the BATFE monitoring the sale of firearms or explosives. It seems to me that explosives, controlled drugs are all very powerful tools in the right hands. Unfortunately, they are also all prone to abuse in the wrong hands. That is why they are monitored.
For most of those kinds of things repeatedly screwing up paperwork will cost you your license. My wife is a nurse at a hospital - if she screws up paperwork for the drugs that are locked up, she gets hauled before the Nursing Board.
You are correct in that paperwork raises costs - and doing it correctly costs more money than doing it incorrectly. Some dealers decide to cheat to cut down on the cost of doing it correctly. They should be spanked.
If you are incompetent, sell Beanie Babies.
Mike
Deanimator
Member
Excellent advice for the BATFE, but I doubt they'll take it...
Redneck with a 40
Member
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- 2,273
Alcahol, Tobacco, and Firearms.......should be a convienience store, not a govt agency.
lol!
lol!tulsamal
Member
I know that my transfer dealer is totally paranoid about how the 4473's get filled out. He looks at every little point. As somebody said, don't even bother handing it to him if you put "Oklahoma City, OK" for your birth place. No abbreviations at all. And question 12 has been "N/A" before. Now it is important to leave it blank.
That's the sort of thing people are complaining about. If ATF inspects your paperwork and says it is "incorrect" because you were having people put "N/A" in question 12 rather than leaving it blank, that's just bureaucracy B.S.
If a gunshop really can't account for every gun, sure, go after them. No one has a problem with ATF going after the bad guys. It's when they go after the good guys over stupid little things that shouldn't matter in the first place. And they change the rules themselves on a regular basis just to catch people who aren't hanging on every word in their newsletters!
Gregg
That's the sort of thing people are complaining about. If ATF inspects your paperwork and says it is "incorrect" because you were having people put "N/A" in question 12 rather than leaving it blank, that's just bureaucracy B.S.
If a gunshop really can't account for every gun, sure, go after them. No one has a problem with ATF going after the bad guys. It's when they go after the good guys over stupid little things that shouldn't matter in the first place. And they change the rules themselves on a regular basis just to catch people who aren't hanging on every word in their newsletters!
Gregg
rhubarb
Member
If all FFLs go out of business, there are still millions of us with guns who need to be watched.
RNB65
Member
That's just paranoia run amok. I've purchased at least 10 guns in the last year from 3 different dealers and I've used "VA" on all of the 4473's with no complaints.
deadin
Member
Would someone please document an instance where a dealer was shut down strictly because of not dotting an 'i' or crossing a 't' on the paperwork? In everything I have seen this 'charge' has been in addition to any number of other charges, like not being able to account for inventory and/or other more dubious practices or continuing to keep sloppy books after being warned that he was not in compliance.
Gator
Member
And don't forget the numerous cases of "fixing" semi-autos so that they fire full auto....and....oh yeah killing innocent people!
Prince Yamato
Member
Didn't you hear [insert conspiracy theory here] ?
You'd better be careful. Wait 'til the ATF does to you like they did to [insert quasi-fabricated story here].
Carl N. Brown
Member
If they put all FFLs out of business, the BATF agents would be out of work.
And if they don't shut a few down over accepting "VA" or "TN" rather than
spelling out "Virginia" or "Tennessee" it will look like they are not working.
ATF has a long history of abuses documented in congressional hearings.
News of ATF looking for excuses to shut down FFLs without a storefront
is not new. I have been told by my local dealer if you do not have a
business license, store front, business insurance, etc. you can forget
about ATF approving a FFL. It used to be you could get an FFL, and
as long as you followed the rules, you could work out of your kitchen.
A few people still operate as "kitchen table" gun dealers, having got
their FFL in the old days and ATF wants to shut them all down to make
work easier for ATF. To do that, they have to make the "kitchen table"
FFLs look like criminals whether they have don anything wrong or not.
And if conspiracy theory is what you want: one of the items listed in
the application for search warrant at Waco was a videotape "Breaking
the Law in the Name of the Law: The BATF Story" produced by
Gun Owners of America. According to the ATF investigator,
David Aguilera, the fact that Vernon Howell aka David Koresh
showed to ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez (not the Robert
Rodriguez who directed "Mariachi", the other Robert Rodriguez)
a videotape that depicted the ATF as rogue agency that routinely
violated citizens' rights was one of the justifications for the raid on
Koresh's church.
And if they don't shut a few down over accepting "VA" or "TN" rather than
spelling out "Virginia" or "Tennessee" it will look like they are not working.
ATF has a long history of abuses documented in congressional hearings.
News of ATF looking for excuses to shut down FFLs without a storefront
is not new. I have been told by my local dealer if you do not have a
business license, store front, business insurance, etc. you can forget
about ATF approving a FFL. It used to be you could get an FFL, and
as long as you followed the rules, you could work out of your kitchen.
A few people still operate as "kitchen table" gun dealers, having got
their FFL in the old days and ATF wants to shut them all down to make
work easier for ATF. To do that, they have to make the "kitchen table"
FFLs look like criminals whether they have don anything wrong or not.
And if conspiracy theory is what you want: one of the items listed in
the application for search warrant at Waco was a videotape "Breaking
the Law in the Name of the Law: The BATF Story" produced by
Gun Owners of America. According to the ATF investigator,
David Aguilera, the fact that Vernon Howell aka David Koresh
showed to ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez (not the Robert
Rodriguez who directed "Mariachi", the other Robert Rodriguez)
a videotape that depicted the ATF as rogue agency that routinely
violated citizens' rights was one of the justifications for the raid on
Koresh's church.
Carl N. Brown
Member
They have the dealers believing that. Ask a few FFL
dealers.
When I moved and tried to buy a gun before
I had my drivers license changed, the dealer stopped the
4473 and told me to get a new drivers license with my
current address and come back: if we had completed
the form with my TDL showing a different address than
my then current address--and this was less than two
weeks after I had moved--it would have been serious
to the ATF. And this was like moving two miles within the
same city, same state. The TDOS allowed me 30 days to
change my TDL. I wrote my new street address on the
4473, but when the dealer saw my old address on my TDL
he told me the ATF would treat it as falsifying a federal
form--felony violation. And this is a dealer who knew me
for over twenty years.
dealers.
When I moved and tried to buy a gun before
I had my drivers license changed, the dealer stopped the
4473 and told me to get a new drivers license with my
current address and come back: if we had completed
the form with my TDL showing a different address than
my then current address--and this was less than two
weeks after I had moved--it would have been serious
to the ATF. And this was like moving two miles within the
same city, same state. The TDOS allowed me 30 days to
change my TDL. I wrote my new street address on the
4473, but when the dealer saw my old address on my TDL
he told me the ATF would treat it as falsifying a federal
form--felony violation. And this is a dealer who knew me
for over twenty years.
Maybe my experiences with the BATFE are an exception to the rule, but I suspect that there are other instances of like encounters.
I am one of those "kitchen table" types. When I put in to get my 01, I made a few phone calls to the agent in my area. I asked a few questions about things I had heard were a stumbling block, such as store front, etc. and got straight answers.
Application went through without a hitch, interview was pleasant, and informative. The agent answered any other questions I had about records and such. I have had the license now going on 4 years. Any time I have had a question about something, a phone call to the same agent has always provided a straight forward, friendly answer. When it came time for renewal and my application was hung up on someones desk, I was provided with a direct phone line and 1 call got it handled.
I am one of those "kitchen table" types. When I put in to get my 01, I made a few phone calls to the agent in my area. I asked a few questions about things I had heard were a stumbling block, such as store front, etc. and got straight answers.
Application went through without a hitch, interview was pleasant, and informative. The agent answered any other questions I had about records and such. I have had the license now going on 4 years. Any time I have had a question about something, a phone call to the same agent has always provided a straight forward, friendly answer. When it came time for renewal and my application was hung up on someones desk, I was provided with a direct phone line and 1 call got it handled.
HonorsDaddy
Member
Owens...
You seem to be about the first person I've seen on this board - or any other gun-oriented forum - who holds the BATFE in something other than utter contempt. Would you be so kind as to explain to me why you dont believe they are the {accurate description of the typical BATFE agent censored due to inability to articulate without violating the forum rules} I believe them to be?
Im serious. If you're able to shed any light upon the agency which may allow me to see them a little less negatively, I'm all ears, er, eyes.
You seem to be about the first person I've seen on this board - or any other gun-oriented forum - who holds the BATFE in something other than utter contempt. Would you be so kind as to explain to me why you dont believe they are the {accurate description of the typical BATFE agent censored due to inability to articulate without violating the forum rules} I believe them to be?
Im serious. If you're able to shed any light upon the agency which may allow me to see them a little less negatively, I'm all ears, er, eyes.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I think ATF enforcement is like the old real estate slogan:
location, location, location. And staying in touch with the
local branch ATF office seems to make a difference too.
And sometimes the difference is the local ATF agent's
attitude toward gun dealers and gun owners in general.
location, location, location. And staying in touch with the
local branch ATF office seems to make a difference too.
And sometimes the difference is the local ATF agent's
attitude toward gun dealers and gun owners in general.
deadin
Member
If I remember correctly Red's Trading Post was investigated beause of a large number of apparent violations, the least of which was "State abbreviations, etc.. Something to do with missing inventory, guns not in the book, using someon else's ID to get discounts and so on. I also noticed that your "references" are from Red's own blog. I wonder why he appears to be as pure as the driven snow????
I also seem to remember seeing where he is still open, so the undotted "i"'s and uncrossed "t"'s didn't do him in.
I also seem to remember seeing where he is still open, so the undotted "i"'s and uncrossed "t"'s didn't do him in.
Honors Daddy,
I wish I could put into words what ye seeketh. All I can say is what I have experienced. Maybe Carl N. Brown summed it up well. It may indeed have to do with the person and their geographical/social location on the map.
Again, all I stated before was my actual experience.
I wish I could put into words what ye seeketh. All I can say is what I have experienced. Maybe Carl N. Brown summed it up well. It may indeed have to do with the person and their geographical/social location on the map.
Again, all I stated before was my actual experience.
"And they're the BATFE. There's no such thing as the "ATF".
Believe you are wrong. Google ATF and you get http://www.atf.treas.gov/ They have joined the "three initial crowd" (FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA etc.). They now call themselves ATF. True, their full name includes explosives.
Believe you are wrong. Google ATF and you get http://www.atf.treas.gov/ They have joined the "three initial crowd" (FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA etc.). They now call themselves ATF. True, their full name includes explosives.
Kilgor said:
If that is an answer to my question, Red's was not an issue of someone abbreviating a state's name. Missing guns, background checks skipped, etc. Horsely (or his defense attorney) said the guns weren't really missing after all. Horsely previously said that the guns were maybe stolen by his employees! All of the sudden they are not stolen. Odd how guns do that. Whatever happened at Reds, I think there was more than an abbreviation problem.
If you have a link to documents than more official than JFPO rantings (as much as I enjoy JFPO) or Horsley's blog, I would actually interested in reading it.
Carl N. Brown said:
It does not seem unreasonable the ATF wants the address on a purchase form to match an address on a Driver's License. Lots of folks have Driver's License addresses that are years out of date.
I'd be surprised if it was a felony violation to have the addresses mis-match, as long as you are not lying about either address.
Mike
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