Prince Yamato
Member
Uh-oh... crap, they're onto me, I better hide the machineguns and absinthe!
ATF on the prowl
- Thread starter LT1coupe
- Start date
- Status
Uh-oh... crap, they're onto me, I better hide the machineguns and absinthe!
Deanimator
Member
And you think that the BATFE is a reliable and trustworthy source of information?
How many instructional videos on how to commit perjury has Red's Trading Post produced?
Deanimator
Member
There is NO ATF. There used to be a BATF. The current name is the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives). It's NEVER been called the "ATF". That's merely an affectation on the part of the BATFE.
I can call myself the King of Siam. It doesn't make it so.
Well.... (gulp) here goes...
HonorsDaddy,
At first I was going to send this as a PM, so as to not clutter up a thread with more *stuff*. But then I thought what the heck. Put it out as a comment.Mods, please do with this as you deem fit, thanks
I got to thinking about your request and sorta figured out in my mind what to say in response to your request.
To whit:
What I have seen and come to believe in regards to the BATFE or any other LE agency whether federal, state or local is basically along these lines:
Have you ever noticed how we hear about this (fill in the blank) agency/department that has been doing (X)? And when you look at it in the big picture, it is usually an incident there and an incident here? But as a whole it is obviously not everywhere nor is everyone being abused/threatened/whatever. Just individual cases. We get bombarded with all kinds of (pardon for a moment) TIN FOIL HAT ON - conspiracy and other wild conjectures that lead people to think that there is a uni-lateral attempt at this or that they are attempting to obliterate this or that. - TIN FOIL HAT OFF. Politicians may not fit in all that though.
As a profession, I teach at a 2 year college in a technical trade. In doing so, I deal with young adults who sometimes are a little childish in their behavior. I have had related to me numerous accounts of the police did this or that to me, etc. when I got stopped for speeding at 80 in a 70. All I hear is how bad the police are from them. Crimminy...they're just doing their job, for cryin out loud! Thank God they do!
I have also come to the conclusion that how your attitude is displayed can go a long way one direction or the other. After all, an attitude is merely an outward expression of an inward feeling. They can read your attitude (I think) and it sets the tone of the encounter.
You and others may find this hard to swallow too, but I have been stopped by the police for stop signs, speed and such. However, I have never had a horror story incident. Granted they were direct and to the point, but again, they were doing their job. They were also courteous about the incident. I can even relate on a couple of occasions that after our "business" was transacted, that we got into some pleasant conversations, even had a few chuckles about it. Imagine that. They must be human!
My experiences have painted a picture of them (BATFE, LE, _____) that is not of a jack-booted thug.
Let me temper all this a bit:
As I said they are human too. This means that agency (X) has as many opportunities for an individual or two to be abnormal as there are agents/officers in said group. Hanging on a badge does not instantly translate someone into SUPER DUPER WONDER HUMAN. If thats all it took, we could issue badges to every person in the country and we would have no need for any LE agencies.
Is it possible for conspiracies to exist? Absoultely! Do I believe there have been a few? Absolutely! For the sake of topic, I won't mention which ones of course.
I might as well get this out in the open too: Yes, I do have some friends in LE at various levels and agencies. However, in conversation, it has been said that they will do their job if I deserve it. I expect no less. And no, the technical trade I do IS NOT law enforcement.
I just can’t (at this point in time anyway) believe that all of group (X) is bad.
HonorsDaddy,
At first I was going to send this as a PM, so as to not clutter up a thread with more *stuff*. But then I thought what the heck. Put it out as a comment.Mods, please do with this as you deem fit, thanks
I got to thinking about your request and sorta figured out in my mind what to say in response to your request.
To whit:
What I have seen and come to believe in regards to the BATFE or any other LE agency whether federal, state or local is basically along these lines:
Have you ever noticed how we hear about this (fill in the blank) agency/department that has been doing (X)? And when you look at it in the big picture, it is usually an incident there and an incident here? But as a whole it is obviously not everywhere nor is everyone being abused/threatened/whatever. Just individual cases. We get bombarded with all kinds of (pardon for a moment) TIN FOIL HAT ON - conspiracy and other wild conjectures that lead people to think that there is a uni-lateral attempt at this or that they are attempting to obliterate this or that. - TIN FOIL HAT OFF. Politicians may not fit in all that though.
As a profession, I teach at a 2 year college in a technical trade. In doing so, I deal with young adults who sometimes are a little childish in their behavior. I have had related to me numerous accounts of the police did this or that to me, etc. when I got stopped for speeding at 80 in a 70. All I hear is how bad the police are from them. Crimminy...they're just doing their job, for cryin out loud! Thank God they do!
I have also come to the conclusion that how your attitude is displayed can go a long way one direction or the other. After all, an attitude is merely an outward expression of an inward feeling. They can read your attitude (I think) and it sets the tone of the encounter.
You and others may find this hard to swallow too, but I have been stopped by the police for stop signs, speed and such. However, I have never had a horror story incident. Granted they were direct and to the point, but again, they were doing their job. They were also courteous about the incident. I can even relate on a couple of occasions that after our "business" was transacted, that we got into some pleasant conversations, even had a few chuckles about it. Imagine that. They must be human!
My experiences have painted a picture of them (BATFE, LE, _____) that is not of a jack-booted thug.
Let me temper all this a bit:
As I said they are human too. This means that agency (X) has as many opportunities for an individual or two to be abnormal as there are agents/officers in said group. Hanging on a badge does not instantly translate someone into SUPER DUPER WONDER HUMAN. If thats all it took, we could issue badges to every person in the country and we would have no need for any LE agencies.
Is it possible for conspiracies to exist? Absoultely! Do I believe there have been a few? Absolutely! For the sake of topic, I won't mention which ones of course.
I might as well get this out in the open too: Yes, I do have some friends in LE at various levels and agencies. However, in conversation, it has been said that they will do their job if I deserve it. I expect no less. And no, the technical trade I do IS NOT law enforcement.
I just can’t (at this point in time anyway) believe that all of group (X) is bad.
Danus ex
Member
Owens, how dare you be levelheaded? How dare you have basic social skills? Act cordial and establish an effective professional relationship with a government licensing agent? You make a mockery of this thread, sir! For shame!
Owens, I agree with you. Our inspector on our 07 FFL was very professional, knowledgeable etc. I have been in contact with him since for questions and he again was professional and helpful. We were not only given his office contacts but also his cell phone and was told ”call my cell it is my job to help you.”
Wild Deuce
Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2007
- Messages
- 223
Maybe you guys are right. It's all about "location, location, location" and how you interact with others. After all, the ones in the middle of the herd think everything's ok. It's the crazy ones at the edge making all the noise ... as they get picked off one by one.
Just be nice to the lions ... maybe they'll eat you last.
Just be nice to the lions ... maybe they'll eat you last.
Carl N. Brown
Member
The Clinton Administration had an admitted policy of reducing
the number of gun dealers, especially the kitchen table dealers,
by an arbitrary number.
You cannot implement a policy to reduce FFLs by a fixed number
and pull licenses with any sort of due process. Law exercised at
the discretion or whim of the enforcement agency, or at the
mere appearance of arbritrary enforcement, is detrimental to
the concept of rule of law.
the number of gun dealers, especially the kitchen table dealers,
by an arbitrary number.
You cannot implement a policy to reduce FFLs by a fixed number
and pull licenses with any sort of due process. Law exercised at
the discretion or whim of the enforcement agency, or at the
mere appearance of arbritrary enforcement, is detrimental to
the concept of rule of law.
waterhouse
Member
Your local gun dealer probably believed the stuff he read on the internet. I read that stuff a couple of years ago too. I doubted I would be able to get a license and work out of the house. Then I called the local ATF office and asked them some questions. They said if it was allowed in my locality and I did everything correctly I would probably be approved, and I was. When the agent came to inspect the house he asked to see the safe. I showed him a small one and told him that I was waiting to get a larger one until I saw if I got approved. He sort of laughed and said "Why wouldn't you be approved?"
The back of the 4473 specifically states, in writing, that the buyer
I didn't add the bold face. It is bold face on the 4473. Not selling a gun until you have a valid, current ID is not the same as the abbreviation thing. I have spoken to several ATF agents about the abbreviation thing, both at a local dealers meeting and at SHOT, and none of them seem to care one way or the other.
It is quite possible you nailed it. All of the ones I have dealt with have been friendly and professional.
stevelyn
Member
The sturmtruppen of the waffen BATFEces are like wolves. They go after non-threatening targets.
Calling them LE dishonors those of us who are.
Calling them LE dishonors those of us who are.
SSN Vet
Member
My FFL guy runs a very small time business out of his house doing FFL transactions for $10/ea. and small gunsmith projects.
On my last purchase he asked me to make a correction on a transfer form from a previous transaction, as apparently he caught an error on the form while doing his own audit. It's been several months now and I honestly can't remember what it was...something very minor and nit-picky...
So we get into a conversation about paperwork and the ATF and he tells me that he gets an onsite ATF audit every year. He says it's usually the same agent, a woman, who is always very polite and professional and that she frequently gives him tips on how to stay out of trouble.
He's never been fined or threatened with having his liscense yanked.
Hmmm! Maybe she plants a bug and the black helicopter that comes by at night records his political rants on THR.
Maybe they're keeping track of all his customers and are going to raid my house and confiscate my beloved Winchester 1300, or my Marlin 336.
Obviously it's an evil conspiracy. It couldn't possibly be a normal person with a job in law enforcement who's trying to do their level best and who sincerely wants to contributie to society and support their family.
Couldn't be, could it?
Naw!
On my last purchase he asked me to make a correction on a transfer form from a previous transaction, as apparently he caught an error on the form while doing his own audit. It's been several months now and I honestly can't remember what it was...something very minor and nit-picky...
So we get into a conversation about paperwork and the ATF and he tells me that he gets an onsite ATF audit every year. He says it's usually the same agent, a woman, who is always very polite and professional and that she frequently gives him tips on how to stay out of trouble.
He's never been fined or threatened with having his liscense yanked.
Hmmm! Maybe she plants a bug and the black helicopter that comes by at night records his political rants on THR.
Maybe they're keeping track of all his customers and are going to raid my house and confiscate my beloved Winchester 1300, or my Marlin 336.
Obviously it's an evil conspiracy. It couldn't possibly be a normal person with a job in law enforcement who's trying to do their level best and who sincerely wants to contributie to society and support their family.
Couldn't be, could it?
Naw!
Carl N. Brown
Member
It would be nice if all ATF agents were "a normal person with a job in law enforcement who's trying to do their level best and who sincerely wants to contributie to society and support their family."
Thankfully, most of them are. I honest believe most are.
But Robert Sanders, former enforcement chief of the ATF, left the
agency for a reason to be come a lawyer specialising in cases of
folks charged by the ATF.
When Alan Bock of Reason magazine went to the Ruby Creek vigil
and protest suring the federal siege at Ruby Ridge, Bock
encountered a former ATF agent who gave him an earful about
why he left the agency and some of the things he had seen.
Jesse Walter of the Spokane Spokesman-Review wrote the best
account of Ruby Ridge. ATF Herb Byerly approached Randy Weaver
to be a snitch in part because a background check came up nada,
not even a traffic ticket; after Weaver refused to become a snitch,
Byerly told the next agencies in line that Weaver was a bank
robber and had criminal convictions. He later tried to explain those
claims away as typographical errors or some such.
And the conduct of Ted Royster in the raid on John Lawmasters
home in Oklahoma is another cause celebre.
And I will not go into how ATF was depicted in the sci fi series Lexx.
Notice most of these cases are late 1980s, early 1990s. I suspect
the image of the agency today is suffering over past abuses and
failure to come clean in the past, leaving a cloud of suspicion over
the agency today.
Still, most of us see ATF as executing the will of Chuck Schumer,
Sara Brady and Dianne Feinstein.
Thankfully, most of them are. I honest believe most are.
But Robert Sanders, former enforcement chief of the ATF, left the
agency for a reason to be come a lawyer specialising in cases of
folks charged by the ATF.
When Alan Bock of Reason magazine went to the Ruby Creek vigil
and protest suring the federal siege at Ruby Ridge, Bock
encountered a former ATF agent who gave him an earful about
why he left the agency and some of the things he had seen.
Jesse Walter of the Spokane Spokesman-Review wrote the best
account of Ruby Ridge. ATF Herb Byerly approached Randy Weaver
to be a snitch in part because a background check came up nada,
not even a traffic ticket; after Weaver refused to become a snitch,
Byerly told the next agencies in line that Weaver was a bank
robber and had criminal convictions. He later tried to explain those
claims away as typographical errors or some such.
And the conduct of Ted Royster in the raid on John Lawmasters
home in Oklahoma is another cause celebre.
And I will not go into how ATF was depicted in the sci fi series Lexx.
Notice most of these cases are late 1980s, early 1990s. I suspect
the image of the agency today is suffering over past abuses and
failure to come clean in the past, leaving a cloud of suspicion over
the agency today.
Still, most of us see ATF as executing the will of Chuck Schumer,
Sara Brady and Dianne Feinstein.
zeroskillz
Member
That was my experience when getting my FFL. I'd go so far as to say the bent over a bit to help me get everything in order. I had a few mistakes on my application and the agent who came out to do the site visit before I got my FFL sat down with me and helped me correct everything that needed it. Anytime I've called the ATF with a question, they have been more than helpful and completely professional.
Maybe he doesn't want to lose your business
You do need all licenses required by local/state law for conducting business in your locale.
You do not need a storefront.
That is still the case my friend. I prefer my study as opposed to my kitchen.
zeroskillz
Member
triple post, weird.
zeroskillz
Member
triple post, weird.
Deanimator
Member
Oh man, I laughed until I was sick!!!
Carl N. Brown
Member
Lexx was a German-Canadian production, to boot.
Foreigners have a bad impression of ATF, for whatever that is worth.
Foreigners have a bad impression of ATF, for whatever that is worth.
Carl N. Brown said:
Oh no! Somehow we stumbled into Rudy Ridge again! All topics lead to Ruby Riadge...
Owens said:
One might exist. But it does tickle me when people attribute super-human conspiracy to our federal government - the same people who deliver our mail? Yeah, the federal government a finely tuned machine, humming along hatching complex detailed conspiracies that are successfully kept quiet for decades at a time.
Carl N. Brown said:
If you find solace in herd thinking, it's hard to argue. Lots of people are happier in the middle of a herd than they are thinking for themselves.
There are also some of us who think that the Constitution clearly separates Executive and Legislative powers - and the law enforcement is an Executive Power. For those of us that think that way, law enforcers have a limited ability to legislate - to alter laws. Basically, that means that if the Legislative branch passes a law, whether the enforcement agencies like it or not, they are required to enforce it. Whether the laws, in your opinion or my opinion, reflect the will of Sarah Brady, Genghis Khan, or Bozo the clown, it doesn't make any difference - as far as enforcement.
And some of us also think that ATF in general is asked to do a hard and occasionally dangerous job that is nonetheless critical for public safety. As with any government policy, no one thinks it's perfect. However many of us like the idea that a federal agency monitors the sale in firearms and explosives - to help restrict the availability of firearms and explosives to criminals and terrorists.
zeroskillz said:
I am heartened by the posts here from folks that find the ATF to be a reasonable agency with which to deal, even if all of us agree that the laws the ATF must enforce somewhat draconian.
Mike
Deanimator
Member
Because the job is "occasionally dangerous", by and large the BATFE prefers to prosecute technical offenses by non-criminals. Can you explain how many gun sales constitutes being "in the buseiness"? The BATFE can't seem to.
Many of us DON'T like the idea of a federal agency which puts on racially segregated parties at public expense and which adopts perjury as official policy, backed up by a training video on HOW TO LIE UNDER OATH.
No matter how you spin it, the BATFE has about as much credibility as a Dan Rather source on George Bush's National Guard service. When you LIE, UNDER OATH, the presumption of truthfulness goes away. And for the BATFE, it most certainly has.
For those that don't think the BATFE is actively trying to shut down FFL's, I have a question. How do you explain an 80% decrease in FFL's between 1994 and 2005? http://www.vpc.org/press/0603dealers.htm
Also, on the Red's Trading Post thing. I think the original violations were in 2000 when the place was changing ownership between family members. Since then they've had 3 audits I believe. The first 2 nothing was found. On the 3rd one, they came up with clerical errors that covered .4% of all the transactions. The BATFE is saying that these errors were 'willful'. This is stuff like using 'Y' instead of 'Yes' and abbreviating the states. Their license has been revoked and they are on an appeal process now I believe. I'm sorry, but I don't think that is right at all.
--RuffRidr
Also, on the Red's Trading Post thing. I think the original violations were in 2000 when the place was changing ownership between family members. Since then they've had 3 audits I believe. The first 2 nothing was found. On the 3rd one, they came up with clerical errors that covered .4% of all the transactions. The BATFE is saying that these errors were 'willful'. This is stuff like using 'Y' instead of 'Yes' and abbreviating the states. Their license has been revoked and they are on an appeal process now I believe. I'm sorry, but I don't think that is right at all.
--RuffRidr
Prince Yamato
Member
Capitalism and the internet.
I'm pretty sure that Cheaperthandirt, AIMsurplus, and a myriad of others have cut into some of the mid-level FFLs. What did Lee Iaccoca used to say? "Lead, follow, or get out of the way".
I too find it heartening to know that I'm not the only one who is sick of the conspiracy theories concerning the ATF. I'm not their #1 fan, but on the other hand, I am glad that someone is monitoring explosive sales and preventing people from diluting wine with anti-freeze.
Just curious, do people on the Cigar Aficionado boards complain about the ATF as much as the gun people do? We can't get German FALs in the US, they can't get Cuban cigars. Yes, it's a cabal! I think some of you need to put down your copies of the Turner Diaries and take a Prozac.
"blah blah blah Ruby Ridge, blah blah blah Waco, blah blah blah darling with you."
If Irving Berlin were alive today, he'd write a song about you conspiracy theorists.
The internet (and particularly gun forums) tend to over-represent extreme/wacky views. I would guess that less than a tenth of a percent of the American population believes that there was any kind of conspiracy about Ruby Ridge. I think that a more folks - maybe 5% - believe that there was some kind of mistake at Waco - probably not many of them attribute it to the ATF.
Mike
- Status
