ATF on the prowl
- Thread starter LT1coupe
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deadin
Member
Yes, I agree. However I look at the BATFE as a necesary evil and at the end of the day, I feel that they have done more good than evil. We need some kind of a watchdog, and they're it. The best we can do is to try to get rid of the "rouge" agents and supervisors, not the whole agency.
A maverick gunstore is not needed and does nothing for RKBA other than turn more fence sitters against us.
BTW, IIRC Red's had been given any number of warnings that their paperwork was not up to snuff and they chose to either ignore the warnings or to basically tell the BATFE to "go to Hell, we will do what we want". Under these conditions is it any suprise that they got slapped down?
spartacus2002
Member
FWIW, I have had conversations with FFLs who say ATF told them NO ABBREVIATIONS WHATSOEVER on the 4473. And I have had conversations with FFLs who say ATF says VA is OK for Virginia.
Guess it depends on the ATF agents they dealt with. Like any organization, some have common sense, some are bureaucratic donkeys.
Guess it depends on the ATF agents they dealt with. Like any organization, some have common sense, some are bureaucratic donkeys.
Same here. In fact one FFL I spoke with told me that he had had different agents tell him different things different times. He was one who was hassled during an audit over the abbreviations. They separated out every form with the state abbreviation used and called them all errors. When he told them that he had called the BATFE office and had been told that the state abbreviations were ok, they immediately dropped it. What this tells me is that the auditors ALREADY knew it was ok but they were still going to try to count them against him as errors and WOULD have had he not called them on their BS.
Deanimator
Member
It was not a "rouge"(sic) agent or supervisor who made PERJURY OFFICIAL AGENCY POLICY. That was a MANAGEMENT DECISION from the TOP. It was not stopped UNTIL it got media and judicial attention.
You could argue that it was the "rouge"(sic) Eugene Rightmyer who got the ball rolling with the Good Old Boy's Roundup, but it was ONLY media attention which got it stopped. Apparently organizing RACIALLY SEGREGATED functions out of BATF offices, on government time, using agency resources, operated and attended by BATF personnel wasn't seen as a problem at ANY level of the BATF UNTIL it came to the attention of "60 Minutes" and others. It didn't stop because anyone in the BATF thought that publicly funded White supremacist activity was wrong. It stopped because they got CAUGHT, and it was EMBARRASSING.
The BATF is ONLY necessary if you see some need for INSTITUTIONAL PERJURY and RACISM.
I hate to stir the pot, but when you mention this, and cite the video, wouldn't it be more fair to at least cite the immediate official repudiation of the comments on the video by the ATF? The repudiation by the ATF was very clear - that agents are never to commit perjury, and the if asked to testify to the accuracy of the database, they are to testify truthfully as to the error rate. Even if you believe the repudiation was false cover, wouldn't it be more honest to at least cite the repudiation?
Wouldn't it also be more honest to cite the DOJ investigation that found no evidence that any of those stories were true? You may believe them to be true - that's your right, but I think it would be more honest it point out that you believe them to be true in the face of DOJ investigation which found the stories to be unfounded.
Here is the report of Department of Justice investigation into the "Good Ole Boy Roundup":
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/9603/
It turns out the the main "witness" peddling the story to 60 minutes was asked to leave the Roundup because of his racist views:
It is true that some black agents filed and won a suit against the ATF, on workplace discrimination issues (assignments and career advancement). Sadly that kind of discrimination has resulted in successful suits against almost every agency in the federal government (Secret Service, FBI, State Department, etc).
Mike
deadin
Member
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bbzzzzrpzzzbzzzzweeeeepweeeeepbzzzz..... Can't hear over the static
Deanimator
Member
But you should know from the suit that things went MUCH farther than mere "assignments and career advancement". There was outright harassment and intimidation, to include the posting of "***** hunting licenses" in government offices.
jpk1md said:
I am sincerely not trying to be combative. I read post #97, and I looked quickly at the document you posted. I can't tell from your post if you are agreeing with something in post #97, or disagreeing.
Can you just tell me your point? That isn't intended to be combative. I sincerely do not have he foggiest clue as to what your point is. Can you say it in a sentence?
Mike
Deanimator
Member
The "****** hunting licenses" were posted in the OK City BATF office. That was one of the elements of the Black BATF agents' suit. That means it either happened or the Black agents were lying.
Let's see, I can believe the Black agents or I can believe an agency for whom LYING UNDER OATH was OFFICIAL POLICY. I once debated this with a retired BATF agent (who PRAISED the Nazi gun control laws) who called them liars... without any [overt] basis for that claim. Based on his praise for National Socialist legislation, it wasn't too hard to figure out the actual basis for his assessment...
Gee Mike, I'm really surprised you didn't see in the form posted in Post 97 that there were changes to definition of Misdemeanor Crimes of Violence and DOJ Reauth Act etc etc and it referenced a doc which I posted as a reference for anyone so inclined to read it.
If thats not clear Mike then just let it go as further discussion adds absolutely nothing to the topic at hand.
I had not in fact noticed that connection, thank you for pointing it out. Is your overall point that in fact the changes to the 4473 reflected a law that already been passed ion 2005?
If that is your point, I think it is an interesting and valid point.
Thanks,
Mike
Carl N. Brown
Member
Hayward was a racist cop who documented racism at an out-of-control event
but then who would be more likely to witness such activities?
The OIG found stuff beyond what Hayward claimed, and found witnesses
besides Hayward.
Sometimes when a pot calls a kettle black, it is because the kettle is black.
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