Average Gun Owner Legal Knowledge Poll

[Frank Ettin]

Sometimes it's not a matter of not knowing the law. The problem can be that what one "knows" isn't true. For example --

...I am in Ohio and I want to loan or lease a rifle to my brother in Michigan. I drive to Michigan, rifle in tow, and loan it to my brother for an unspecified period of time....

That is not accurate. Let's look at what the statutes actually say (emphasis added):

18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

....

So there are two legal issues with someone visiting his brother who lives in another State and handing him a gun on loan;

1. The "loan or rent" exception of 922(a)(5) applies only if the loan or rental is temporary and for a lawful sporting purpose. It's not obvious those criteria are satisfied in this particular case.
   
   
2. More importantly, the transferee (brother) directly receiving in his State of residence the gun delivered to him by the transferor would be a violation of 922(a)(3). There's no "loan" exception in 922(a)(3) to the requirement that an interstate transfer go through an FFL. (And the transferor violates federal law (18 USC 2) by aiding and abetting the transferee's violation.

 

[Reloadron]

Sometimes it's not a matter of not knowing the law. The problem can be that what one "knows" isn't true. For example --



That is not accurate. Let's look at what the statutes actually say (emphasis added):

​

So there are two legal issues with someone visiting his brother who lives in another State and handing him a gun on loan;

1. The "loan or rent" exception of 922(a)(5) applies only if the loan or rental is temporary and for a lawful sporting purpose. It's not obvious those criteria are satisfied in this particular case.
   
   
2. More importantly, the transferee (brother) directly receiving in his State of residence the gun delivered to him by the transferor would be a violation of 922(a)(3). There's no "loan" exception in 922(a)(3) to the requirement that an interstate transfer go through an FFL. (And the transferor violates federal law (18 USC 2) by aiding and abetting the transferee's violation.

Well thank you Frank for the detailed explanation, I appreciate that. While I do have a brother in Michigan he is far from a gun type. I based my thinking on the quote I posted from ATF. The wording lacks detail. So what would apply if I die leaving a gun to an out of state family member other than their state laws would apply?

Thanks again and your explanation is much appreciated.
Ron

 

[Electrod47]

So, Through out my life I have been a multi-year resident of 4 different states. CA. AZ TX MS. Have purchased firearms in all of them through FFL process over a 50 year period.
So, now I can only gift those to whom?

 

[bearcreek]

So, Through out my life I have been a multi-year resident of 4 different states. CA. AZ TX MS. Have purchased firearms in all of them through FFL process over a 50 year period.
So, now I can only gift those to whom?

Makes zero difference where you bought them. What matters is where you're currently a resident.

 

[Frank Ettin]

…what would apply if I die leaving a gun to an out of state family member other than their state laws would apply?….

Details matter, but basically federal law doesn’t require an interstate transfer of a gun by bequest or intestate succession go through an FFL, subject to the recipient not being prohibited from possessing a gun. But state transfer laws can complicate things, e. g., California. Also, there can be state law issues related to whether the formalities required for bequest or intestate succession have been complied with.

The thing is that the passage of property by inheritance can be a highly formalized, legal process — depending on circumstances and state law. It’s not necessarily a simple matter of the family gathering in Aunt Morticia’s den to divvy up dead Uncle Festus’ stuff.

 

[Electrod47]

Boy, The term "Ignorance is bliss" comes to mind.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Boy, The term "Ignorance is bliss" comes to mind.

I’m not sure who said it but, “If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.”

For every cliche, there’s an equal, but opposite, cliche.

 

[Mal H]

Note

The title was edited to accommodate the number of characters allowed.

Also, the percentages were changed to include all possibilities. Your previous vote may have changed. Please select "Change Your Vote" at the bottom of the poll window if you want to change it.

 

[GBExpat]

Wanted to clarify that I was looking for real data, not guesses. I set it up so that you could change your vote as you gathered more data, i.e. actually ask the gun owners that you know.

You want us to contact all of the gunowners that we know and ask them before we respond? Yeeeeeaaaah ... that's gonna happen.

My SWAG is 0-5%.

================
Additional thought ...

Speaking for myself, the first half of my life taught me to acquire such knowledge and remember it. The second half (or close enough) of my life, with the explosion of the "information highway" I have readjusted to the fact that it is now more reasonable for me to still educate myself of such regulations, but not to worry about remembering all of the details because they are always at my fingertips.

BTW, with such regulations, even when I "know" them, before going forward with an enterprise on which they touch, I always check them to make sure that what I "know" is (still) correct.

 

[bearcreek]

You want us to contact all of the gunowners that we know and ask them before we respond? Yeeeeeaaaah ... that's gonna happen.

My SWAG is 0-5%.

Ask them as you get the opportunity and update your vote as you gather more data. I never said anything about asking them all before responding. A poll based on guesses is completely pointless. It's really not that hard to simply not vote if you don't have the data. Obviously you're still welcome to join the discussion, you don't have to vote in the poll in order to do so.

 

[GBExpat]

...It's really not that hard to simply not vote if you don't have the data. ...

Alas, I thought this was a Opinion Poll. I voted before I waded thru (some of) the Thread and discovered that you wanted us to Poll our gun-owning friends & acquaintances. There is no Remove Vote Option so it appears that my 0-5% SWAG Vote must remain.

 

[230RN]

.....

What I said there and finally deleted was the notion that this poll needs a complete redesign and re submission, since what information the original poster is after is not clearly defined.

Not OP's fault, though, since apparently not even the ATF can decide what the laws mean from time A to time B.

Sample: "...a single pull of the trigger..." is still up in the air as far as I can tell from my couch with my feet up on the coffee table, though I don't follow that from day to day.

And what about a string tied to a washer in and of itself being a machinegun according to their first determination? Or a bolt with a fixed firing pin in and of itself being a machinegun?

Oh, say, what about those "release triggers?"

And remember... if they can ban one item, design, or behavior, they can ban them all.

Terry, 230RN

 

[dogtown tom]

What percentage of gun owners that you know are familiar with interstate transfer laws?

Anyone that has voted more than "0-5%" hasn't been around very many gun owners.

Heck, barely half my customers filling out the Form 4473 do so correctly, despite bolded instructions right there in the form, despite it being a requirement for almost a decade, despite the neon colored placard in the middle of my table and despite the neon colored warnings on each counter mat:

PLEASE READ THE INSTRUCTIONS ON THE FORM
Answer all questions
Both 18a Ethnicity and 18b Race must be answered
​

Yet not a day goes by that I don't hand the form back to the buyer/transferee because they skipped a question.

 

[bearcreek]

Alas, I thought this was a Opinion Poll. I voted before I waded thru (some of) the Thread and discovered that you wanted us to Poll our gun-owning friends & acquaintances. There is no Remove Vote Option so it appears that my 0-5% SWAG Vote must remain.

Why would I ask (in the OP) for folks here to exclude themselves from the poll if I was just looking for rough guesses?

 

[bearcreek]

What I said there and finally deleted was the notion that this poll needs a complete redesign and re submission, since what information the original poster is after is not clearly defined.

Sorry it wasn't clear, although I'm not sure how it could have been made clearer. What I'm after is data on the percentage of gun owners who don't know the federal law regarding interstate firearm transfers. The law is actually quite simple, but I'm finding, and this thread and poll is confirming, that the vast majority have no idea what it is.

 

[230RN]

bear creek said,

"
I should have said for people to exclude all members of THR from the poll, rather than just themselves, since the members here almost certainly do not represent the average gun owner.
"

twarr1 remarked,

"
I didn’t vote because there’s no 0-4% choice.
"

bear creek said,

"
The poll says nothing about intentions, or actions, only knowledge.
"

Maybe it should have.

I reiterate my remark that the poll should be redesigned and resubmitted in light of the emergent problems.

Sorry, bear creek, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. No offense.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Thomasss]

"Gee, I love this kind of talk" Ensign Charles Parker (Tim Conway) in tv show McHales Navy

 

[herrwalther]

Missing a few options between 0 and 5%.

 

[LongPistol44]

The VAST majority of gun owners know virtually nothing of the many laws regulation nearly everything about guns.

Interstate transfers
What "stand your ground" actually is
What "castle doctrine" actually is
What an SBR is
What an AOW is
Why you can't put a VFG/stock on a pistol
What their state's definition of "lethal force" (or similar) actually is
That being a user of marijuana makes one federally prohibited from possession

I speak to many gun owners. Most just don't know. The number of laws unknowingly broken is crazy

 

[captain awesome]

I have literally never met anyone in person who completely knows the ins and outs of interstate firearm transfer laws.
edit; that I have spoken with about it. even atf agents I have asked didn't know the answers to some questions I had.

 

[dogtown tom]

I have literally never met anyone in person who completely knows the ins and outs of interstate firearm transfer laws.
edit; that I have spoken with about it. even atf agents I have asked didn't know the answers to some questions I had.

I like to think I do, being that my business depends on my understanding those "ins and outs".
Contrary to popular belief, the laws and regulations regarding interstate transfers are not vague or complex.

 

[captain awesome]

I like to think I do, being that my business depends on my understanding those "ins and outs".
Contrary to popular belief, the laws and regulations regarding interstate transfers are not vague or complex.

thats awesome man. I have never met you though, that I am aware of. My side business does as well. The contiguous states part is what most don't know from my experience.

 

[dogtown tom]

.... The contiguous states part is what most don't know from my experience.

Well, thats not been federal law for thirty six years.

 

[Swing]

The "average" gun owners that I've seen over all these decades are largely ignorant of such. I voted for the lowest setting.

 

[rromeo]

Well, thats not been federal law for thirty six years.

In my experience, that's the part that many don't understand.