Local Gunshop Misinformation Frustration
- Thread starter DigMe
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EOD Guy
Member
Sorry Victory, it's still a straw purchase. Cash doesn't have to change hands.
You provided a service for your Dad and he purchased the firearm in exchange for that service.
I have a letter from BATF covering that very scenario. As far as the regulation is concerned, providing a service in exchange for the purchase is the same as providing cash.
Now, whether or not that could be easily proved or even if the BATF would care is another matter, although you have admitted to the scheme in a public forum. The Feds also have a catch all charge they call conspiracy.
Regardless of all this, it's going to pleasant to go through with having a friend / relative buy me some handguns, posting the details of the process on the forum step by step, and putting people who yell at me for doing a straw purchase in their place.
Mmmmm. Y'know I originally posted my plan for doing exactly what that fellow legally did and was humiliated and castrated verbally for my plans? I actually spent months until now that COULD have been spent enjoying and practicing with a new gun, gunless, because of that.
Mmmmm. Y'know I originally posted my plan for doing exactly what that fellow legally did and was humiliated and castrated verbally for my plans? I actually spent months until now that COULD have been spent enjoying and practicing with a new gun, gunless, because of that.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
First, that's enough profanity, thanks.
Second, it's not about you being 18. Nothing to do with age at all. You're following a red herring. What he's talking about is a straw purchase.
When one person goes into a gun shop and looks for a gun, informing the salesman that he's not going to purchase the gun but will have someone else "purchase it for him" that's a straw sale. The issue is not WHY he's not purchasing it himself; the issue is that the person who is actually making the purchase is not going to fill out the 4473 or undergo the background check, and the person who is going to do those things is a stand-in. It makes no difference at all WHY you want to purchase the gun through a straw man.
If it's a gift, that's fine, but the gun shop doesn't know that you aren't actually the one paying for the gun.
If you're not prohibited from purchasing from your father, that's fine, but they have no way of knowing that either. All they know from what you told them is that your father is going to come in and "purchase" a gun only to turn it over to you immediately, and that there's about a 50/50 chance BATF will view that as a straw purchase.
Not doing the sale is their way of compensating for their inability to read your mind.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Heist, I don't think you get it. Nobody wants to "castrate" you (did you mean castigate, or are you really feeling that put-upon?)
People are trying to help here.
If you post the step-by-step account of making a straw sale, it'll disappear. Illegal activity (whether we believe it should be illegal or not) is not up for discussion at THR. I hope that's clear.
Frankly, if you're going to get angry when you don't get the advice you wanted, you should avoid asking for advice from other people and keep your own counsel. Might get you into trouble, or might not, but you won't have to listen to stupid old fogeys tell you something is a bad idea.
People are trying to help here.
If you post the step-by-step account of making a straw sale, it'll disappear. Illegal activity (whether we believe it should be illegal or not) is not up for discussion at THR. I hope that's clear.
Frankly, if you're going to get angry when you don't get the advice you wanted, you should avoid asking for advice from other people and keep your own counsel. Might get you into trouble, or might not, but you won't have to listen to stupid old fogeys tell you something is a bad idea.
GigaBuist
Member
My closest shop wants $50 for an FFL to FFL transfer. They won't do private sales, at least according to the counter guy I asked about 6 months ago. He actually asked them to do it for him and was told flat out no even thoug he was an employee!
At least they know it's not illegal though. I have no problem with somebody protecting their business or just staying out of transfers because it's a headache for them. Free market and all.
The only thing that gets me, I suppose, about gun shops spouting off with the wrong information (in any manner of law) is that if enough people THINK that's actually the law when it isn't it just makes it that much easier to change the rules to reflect what the public assumes is already law (ie: 21 for handguns).
Since we drifted off into the father/son straw purchase scenario I guess I'll bring something up: In MI there's a paper trail every time a handgun transfers hands thanks to our "safety inspection" system. Since there's a clear paper trail I'd be interested in seeing any ATF investigations/prosecutions of this scenario in my home state. It would be very easy for a Sheriff's department to notify them if they saw this, and I'd presume if it was something the ATF cared about they'd pressure Sheriffs to provide said info.
I'll ask the clerk (who's a stickler for details) about it next time I'm in getting a permit or "safety inspection."
At least they know it's not illegal though. I have no problem with somebody protecting their business or just staying out of transfers because it's a headache for them. Free market and all.
The only thing that gets me, I suppose, about gun shops spouting off with the wrong information (in any manner of law) is that if enough people THINK that's actually the law when it isn't it just makes it that much easier to change the rules to reflect what the public assumes is already law (ie: 21 for handguns).
Since we drifted off into the father/son straw purchase scenario I guess I'll bring something up: In MI there's a paper trail every time a handgun transfers hands thanks to our "safety inspection" system. Since there's a clear paper trail I'd be interested in seeing any ATF investigations/prosecutions of this scenario in my home state. It would be very easy for a Sheriff's department to notify them if they saw this, and I'd presume if it was something the ATF cared about they'd pressure Sheriffs to provide said info.
I'll ask the clerk (who's a stickler for details) about it next time I'm in getting a permit or "safety inspection."
people have to realize that with current gun laws the BATF can arrest you for just about anything at any time because you own a gun
I'll leave it at this. If your dad buys you a gun for christmas, and you buy him a necktie, have you not compensated him? Where does it end?
What if your dad has written his last will and in it is says "upon my death, all of my guns will go to my son Jim." Is he lying everytime he fills out section 12a? After all, the end recipient is not him. And look at you paying for HIS funeral costs! He's the straw purchacer from beyond the grave!
My dad buy's a gun with his own money and gives it to me in appreciation for my hard work. Is this not legal? Unfortunately, we have to call it a "grey area" because everything is up to interpritation by the BATF.
let me step into reality for a second. I was offering the best approach for obtaining a handgun if you are under 21 and over 18. If you want my god's honest opinion, your dad could buy you the gun, you could give him cash for it when you get home and no one would be the wiser. Where'd you get the gun? It was a christmas present. Not that i'd ever recommend that anyone do something so blatantly illegal. My god, think of the consiquences to society.
I'll leave it at this. If your dad buys you a gun for christmas, and you buy him a necktie, have you not compensated him? Where does it end?
What if your dad has written his last will and in it is says "upon my death, all of my guns will go to my son Jim." Is he lying everytime he fills out section 12a? After all, the end recipient is not him. And look at you paying for HIS funeral costs! He's the straw purchacer from beyond the grave!
My dad buy's a gun with his own money and gives it to me in appreciation for my hard work. Is this not legal? Unfortunately, we have to call it a "grey area" because everything is up to interpritation by the BATF.
let me step into reality for a second. I was offering the best approach for obtaining a handgun if you are under 21 and over 18. If you want my god's honest opinion, your dad could buy you the gun, you could give him cash for it when you get home and no one would be the wiser. Where'd you get the gun? It was a christmas present. Not that i'd ever recommend that anyone do something so blatantly illegal. My god, think of the consiquences to society.
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Smoke
Member
I never even heard of that place.
But I try not to spend to much time on LaSalle.
Smoke
There is a shop not too far from where I work. It is Young Guns (Alma, MI). I have gone through them 6 or 7 times for out of state purchases. SOme have been from FFL's and a few have been from private individuals. Usually, it has been for things that they don't carry and the guns have been used. Now, the only things that I have bought from this store is ammo. This dealer charged $20 for the transfer, and the last time I went in, he didn't charge me anything. I just wanted to point out that there are some great dealers out there, as this guy certainly didn't owe me anything.
jefnvk
Member
Well, what if they are all gifts?
Based on what's been related here concerning what constitutes a straw purchase a husband buying a gun for his wife would seem to be a straw purchase?
No money changes hands but no one could argue that a wife doesn't supply a service in exchange (get your minds out of the gutter guys ).
Seems like our buddies at ATF can just about arrest one for anything...
No money changes hands but no one could argue that a wife doesn't supply a service in exchange (get your minds out of the gutter guys
).Seems like our buddies at ATF can just about arrest one for anything...
JohnBT
Member
"Don't they have to take a class or a test or something that tests knowledge of the law?"
Nope.
And with an FFL they can call themselves a gunsmith, too. Explains a lot, doesn't it?
John
Nope.
And with an FFL they can call themselves a gunsmith, too. Explains a lot, doesn't it?
John
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