Local Gunshop Misinformation Frustration

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D

DigMe

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Waco, TX
Argh! I just got off the phone with one of the local gunshops here in Waco. I asked if they will receive a transfer from a non-FFL holder as some shops won't as a matter of store policy.

He said:"Can't, it's illegal."

I told him that in fact it's not illegal and he can go to the ATF website and read the law, which is clearly stated there.

He said "Nope, it's illegal."

I then told him that I know people who regularly ship firearms themselves.

He said "Well, they're breaking the law then."

I finally just said "Ok" and hung up.

What's the deal...why are there so many FFL dealers that DO NOT KNOW BASIC GUN LAWS?! Don't they have to take a class or a test or something that tests knowledge of the law?

Well, I'm so tired and frustrated of this kind of misinformation that I actually just finished writing a letter. Yeah...I know it's cheesy but this guy needs to be informed of proper laws because many gun owners get their knowledge of these things from people like them. I quoted and cited the law in the letter but I suspect he'll still insist that it's illegal after he reads it.

:banghead:

brad cook
 
Lead

You can lead an idiot to information, but you cannot make them partake :cuss:

Do not have a solution, but I would not shop there. :evil:
 
He said:"Can't, it's illegal."
Click to expand...

Literal translation: If you are not buying one from me I don't want to be bothered to do the paperwork.

The indoor range I shoot at charges $100 for a FFL transfer (vs $30 with the FFL (non-gunshop) I deal with). Kind of discourages you from doing one with them.
 
I have had a very similar experience. Why wouldn't a shop want to make $25 or $30 for making a phone call?
 
The shop I've decided to deal with is in another town and they'll do it for $15 but they also insist on only doing it from another FFL. Smoke recommended another place that will do it without the BS but it's a bit farther away from the shop I'm dealing with. Also, luckily the nice fellow I'm buying from has a dealer that will do it on his end for 5 bucks and he offered to pay that cost, so fortunately I'm getting out of this with only a $15 loss in the transfer thanks to some good people in Florida.

brad cook
 
Ditto the above. I'm always amazed at the ignorance level of these people. Here in Kommiefornicate (California to the uninitiated) I asked a guy about the looming 50 BMG ban. He was a gun store employee and he said it would outlaw all 50 cal except blackpowder. I told him I didn't think that was right since I had been following the case. He copped an attitude like he knew everything. (Actually, the twit is so dense that if an original thought ever crossed his mind it'd be the shortest trip in North America.)

Same store. Later date but similar conversation with two other employees. A salesgirl (YES, YOU FEMINAZIS, I SAID "SALESGIRL!") said she agreed with the ban since the 50 could shoot a plane out of the sky. I couldn't freaking believe it! Her boss makes his living selling something the current oligarchy is trying to outlaw and she agrees???!!!!

Honestly, most of these people, if they weren't working in this store, would have a job that included the phrase, "Would you like fries with that?"
 
alright how about one from the OTHER side?
this kid i know (19 yr old still living at home with mom) goes to buy a desert eagle .50ae, pretty much cause of movies like 'snatch' and video games like counterstrike. wont be swayed for nothing, no matter what lines of logic and reasoning are tried (ammo cost is prohibitive, hes a complete nuub to handguns, etc).
so he goes to a bunch of shops in town and is trying to get the lowest price. he knows he cant make the purchase but his mom is willing to. but he doesnt mention that to the shops he goes to. raises more than a few hairs when this little tidbit is revealed to the gunshops.
anyways, i'm telling this kid that according to law, a federal dealer cant sell him a gun until he's 21, but that doesnt mean its illegal for him to buy one from a private party. but he doesnt take my word for it, he calls the ATF, and asks them "I'm 19, can i buy from a private dealer?"
ATF sez "NO! illegal!"
which is right. the doofus worded the question completely wrong.

to this day this kid still gleans his gun knowledge from playing video games and watching movies. i dont know how many times i have had to tell him to stop talking about his plans to buy a semiauto ak-clone and buy 'da kit'. or tell him 'no i dont want to hear about you wanting to go out and shoot stuff that isnt suitable target!' (such as batteries, full propane tanks, etc)

and when he mentioned that him and his buddy had girlfriends that were gun-hating liberals, he refused to listen to the sound advice of kicking them to the curb because it wasnt about guns, it was about control.

i wonder if i was that stupid when i was 19?
 
Hey Digme, what gunshop was that? I know all the Waco area ones.. I wouldn't think it was Praco (they're smarter than that, if not, get B.L or Brad to whup their butt), but Guns & Gold could be that dumb.....
 
I have told this before, but I think it bears repeating. I deal with my local dealers. I buy stuff from them, even if it costs a bit more than I could get it for if I had a Collectors FFL. I help them out with tough questions and they help me by ordering stuff I can't get otherwise.

So when I want to have a gun shipped in they know it will be one they don't have and can't get, and I get charged a reasonable (or no) fee for the service. Even if the dealer says no charge, I do right by him for helping me.

One day I was in a shop when a yuppie swaggered in, ORDERED the dealer so send an FFL copy to some guy he bought from "on the net". Now the gun was the same as a half dozen the dealer had in stock, but the guy didn't know that; he had never been in the place in his life. The dealer, well bent out of shape by the guy's attitude, told him, "I don't do that", the nut went berserk, threatening to sue, call BATF, call the police, etc. Finally, he stomped out, still muttering curses and yelling about his Second Amendment rights. We were laughing so hard, I could hardly do the paperwork on the gun the dealer had gotten in for me.

As to receiving guns from non-dealers, the idea makes many dealers uncomfortable, since they don't know the source. They also don't want to send a copy of their FFL to some unknown person. For all the dealer knows, the gun may be stolen or illegal in some way. They usually avoid the problem by just saying it is illegal.

Jim
 
spacemanspiff:

I owned 4 handguns by the time i was 19. I went into gunshops, found the best price and told them i was 18 and that i'd have my dad stop by and pick it up for me.

Then they'd go on with "That's illegal! It's a straw purchace!" I told them they were idiots and bought it elsewhere.

You think that's bad? Try practicing with a handgun at 18. Go into a range, hand them your ID.

"what are you shooting today"
"a couple handguns"
"That's illegal! You're too young to own handguns!"
"No, i'm to young to buy them, not to have them given to me and not to practice with them"
"You can leave now or i'm calling the police to have you arrested for juvenile possession of a handgun"
"listen up dipsh*t (taking a BATF pamphlet off the counter) there's the federal law, (opening up range bag to retrieve paper) here's the state law, here's a signed copy of a letter from the attorney general to explain it to you. Have a nice day."

Seriously, i purchaced a glock 26 from a LAWYER and the gun shop wouldn't do the transfer. They wouldn't even listen to an attorney.
 
FFL TRANSFERS

I buy a good many guns off the net and around the country.When I sell a gun and the guy doesn't have a local dealer to go to,I will go on Gunbroker or Auction Arms and look up the closest dealers to him that will accept a transfer and state a price.It's not very often that I run into a problem with this.Most FFL holders charge around $30.00 and under if you search them out.
As far as shipping the firearm without going thru FFL dealer,The gun could still be stolen,but there's still a paper trail back to the person who sold the gun.The dealer isn't responsible,and the police are just going to ask where it came from and where it went to.I've been thru this before.
If a dealer isn't willing to work with you,then maybe you should move on to a dealer who will.But,on the other side,I wouldn't expect a dealer to bend over backwards for you if you have never supported his/her shop before.And after the shop has done your transfer,I feel it would be only right to continue to buisness with this shop and have a good relationship there.
The small dealers cannot compete with Walmart on price and you shouldn't expect that of them.But,they should be upfront and tell their customers this or carry a line of ammo that Walmart doesn't have and still compete.And a small shop can compete with good service and knowledge. :D
 
I know a kitchen table guy who charges $25 for a transfer and does it with a smile. He's great and dead honest. When i transferred my glock through him the previous owner supplied a trigger lock. Since the dealer didn't have to provide me with a lock, he gave me a box of 9mm ammo for it instead. "you paid me $25 and you're gonna get your money's worth." Won't use anyone else.
 
Hey Digme, what gunshop was that? I know all the Waco area ones.. I wouldn't think it was Praco
Click to expand...

Let me jump in so DigMe doesn't have to name names.

Praco has told me they do not do transfers unless the gun comes from an FFL holder. (they did not tell me it was illegal, just that they wouldn't do it)

Hewitt Guns said the exact same thing.

As far as shipping the firearm without going thru FFL dealer,The gun could still be stolen,but there's still a paper trail back to the person who sold the gun.The dealer isn't responsible,and the police are just going to ask where it came from and where it went to.
Click to expand...

I think this hits on the reasoning behind what these gunshops are doing. The FFL holder told me that he "is required to know where the gun came from" If an individual ships a gun to an FFL holder, the Licensee doesn't know if that is his real name or not. Could be an alias, stolen gun, or other problem.

These shops elected to not accept to avoid any issues coming up. I don't agree with that, but it's their stores not mine. Also their FFL on the line if they screw up.

It is my opinion that FFL holders in this area are getting bad information from the ATF agent that does their inspections. I have heard a lot of wrong information from dealers in teh same area that all quote the same line of bull and allpoint it back to the guy doing their inspections. A bureaucrat flexes his assumed authority and is wrong, surprise, surprise. And the dealers won't argue for fear of losing their licenses.

I found an FFL that will accept shippments from individuals and is danged happy to do the transfer for $20.00. But it took me a couple of months to find him. I hope that agent doesn't lie to him too.

Smoke
 
"i wonder if i was that stupid when i was 19?"

I know my father got a whole lot smarter from the the time I was 15 until I was 25. :) (Hint: this is not about my father.)

JBT
 
JBP...

When somebody prices himself out of the market it's usually because he just doesn't want the traffic. And if someone wants to deal at his price, then, maybe he'll do it. Re guns, though... anyone willing to pay an inflated price to acquire a gun is - already suspect. Most FFL holders (probably) wouldn't touch a service to someone willing to pay over-market - for obvious reasons.

-Andy
 
I owned 4 handguns by the time i was 19. I went into gunshops, found the best price and told them i was 18 and that i'd have my dad stop by and pick it up for me.

Then they'd go on with "That's illegal! It's a straw purchace!" I told them they were idiots and bought it elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Victory,

Unless your Dad was buying the handgun with no compensation from you and was giving it to you as an outright gift, it would be a straw purchase. It doesn't matter that you can legally possess the handgun or that it is between family members, it is illegal.

If you looked at the handgun and told the dealer you would have your Dad pick up the gun, I wouldn't sell it either.
 
Jim Keenan - "One day I was in a shop when a yuppie swaggered in, ORDERED the dealer so send an FFL copy to some guy he bought from "on the net"."

victory - ""listen up dipsh*t (taking a BATF pamphlet off the counter)"

Most dealers I know (and I don't pretend to know all that many, just a few of my local ones) are more than willing to work with people, especially regular customers OR new ones who are polite.

But come in with an attitude, even if you are right, and you will be out on your ear.

As with many other human endeavors, it pays to be polite.
 
alright how about one from the OTHER side?
this kid i know (19 yr old still living at home with mom) goes to buy a desert eagle .50ae, pretty much cause of movies like 'snatch' and video games like counterstrike. wont be swayed for nothing, no matter what lines of logic and reasoning are tried (ammo cost is prohibitive, hes a complete nuub to handguns, etc).
so he goes to a bunch of shops in town and is trying to get the lowest price. he knows he cant make the purchase but his mom is willing to. but he doesnt mention that to the shops he goes to. raises more than a few hairs when this little tidbit is revealed to the gunshops.
anyways, i'm telling this kid that according to law, a federal dealer cant sell him a gun until he's 21, but that doesnt mean its illegal for him to buy one from a private party. but he doesnt take my word for it, he calls the ATF, and asks them "I'm 19, can i buy from a private dealer?"
ATF sez "NO! illegal!"
which is right. the doofus worded the question completely wrong.

to this day this kid still gleans his gun knowledge from playing video games and watching movies. i dont know how many times i have had to tell him to stop talking about his plans to buy a semiauto ak-clone and buy 'da kit'. or tell him 'no i dont want to hear about you wanting to go out and shoot stuff that isnt suitable target!' (such as batteries, full propane tanks, etc)

and when he mentioned that him and his buddy had girlfriends that were gun-hating liberals, he refused to listen to the sound advice of kicking them to the curb because it wasnt about guns, it was about control.

i wonder if i was that stupid when i was 19?
Click to expand...

its the same mindset and mentality when people buy certain cars, they played some game and think the car (thats in the game) has such and such performance level because of the game. posers who go into chatrooms and claim to have a skyline even though its way out of their price range. they take entertainment far too seriously and believe it reflects how life really is, or how they think it should be.

more than likely he'll wind up hurting himself or someone else in the process of trying to play "make believe thug" because as you know he knows it all and knows without a doubt in his mind (or a thought for that matter) nothing can ever go wrong, he's "in control".


my fear about a dealer doesnt relate to a FFL but to certain items like 15 round magazines for a 9 mm. they are legal to sell to non LEO's now but i'm still concerned about being told no i cant have them because the magazine says "LEO only" and wont listen to reason or facts.

i'm not so sure gun dealers know the actual law now. i know they've had to err on the side of caution from fear of the feds cracking down on them and giving them major headaches but my question is, if the're so scared, why dont they find another job or business? seriously, if you're afraid to the point that you wont even do things that ARE legal, then maybe you shouldnt be dealing in guns, try donuts or hamburgers. ignorance is no excuse either, as a gun dealer they should know what is and isnt legal. if they want to be a dick about transfers, screw em, find someone who will. seems like too many people are ruining the fun of firearms, as long as its by the book, whats the problem?
 
Victory, Unless your Dad was buying the handgun with no compensation from you and was giving it to you as an outright gift, it would be a straw purchase.

It doesn't matter that you can legally possess the handgun or that it is between family members, it is illegal.

If you looked at the handgun and told the dealer you would have your Dad pick up the gun, I wouldn't sell it either.
Click to expand...

You seem to be misinformed of the law, so listen up dipsh*t :D (i'm just messing with ya)

Is it legal for an 18yo to own a handgun? Yes

Is it legal for an 18yo to purchase a handgun from a third party (defined as someone who does not hold an FFL)? Yes

Does my dad hold an FFL? No

Does federal law prohibit him from making a third party sale: No

Does state law? No

Must this in-state third party transfer go through an FFL? Not if it is between father and son.

The definition of a straw purchace according to the BATF is "someone who buys a firearm for a person prohibited from having one.****

Is an 18yo a person prohibited from owning a handgun? No

Is there a required number of days you must own a gun before selling it? No

So what's the problem? I challenge you to find a flaw.

****at least it was up until 1995 when they decided that a straw purchase also includes sales in which both the initial buyer and the ultimate recipient could legally purchase and possess firearms.

So, for further ass coverage (because of the 1995 change). I never gave my father any money, he simply witheld the dollar amount from the monthly cost of living stipend he gave me at college. Two months of paying my own cost of living earns me the gift of a new handgun! Look at what marvelous things i get for self sufficiency.

Dad buys handgun, gives me a wonderful gift as a reward for saving him said cost with my fiscal responsibility. Only a gun has changed hands, no money has.

Remember, a gift doesn't have to be a surprise and gifts can be given for any occasion.

Look at this BATF 1995 policy change carefully. Technically, anyone who has sold a handgun for monetary reembursement in a third party sale since 1995 is a straw purchacer. How can this be constitutional? The federal government, the BATF being an enforcement branch of it has no right to regulate INTRAstate commerce. So if you've sold a gun in a third party transaction in the last 10 years, count yourself lucky you're not in a federal pen or in an expensive court battle to keep yourself out of it. Isn't it nice to know that the government can arbitrarily lock you up for things it has no jurisdiction over?

Most dealers I know (and I don't pretend to know all that many, just a few of my local ones) are more than willing to work with people, especially regular customers OR new ones who are polite.
Click to expand...

I'm always a model of politeness, that is, untill someone gives me the boot and threatens to have me arrested because they are incompotent. Most gun dealers I know (and I don't pretend to know all that many, just a few of my local ones) are grossly incompotent when it comes to legal matters.
 
Last edited:
Is it legal for an 18yo to own a handgun? Yes


This sounds very familiar :)

Welcome back Clubsoda?

If not theres a buncha theads about 18 year olds and PA gun handgun laws about a year back....
 
yes, researching this persons old posts does reveal similarity. That particular person was as correct then as i am now. I applaud him for his research. It isn't often that people will actually spend time researching their gun rights. He needs a little polishing however.
 
MrMurphy,

The shop was Guns R Us on La Salle. All the other shops I called in Waco (As Smoke mentioned) also said they wouldn't do it from a nonlicensee but they never claimed it was illegal and some said they just want to know where it's coming from.

brad cook
 
Jim Keenan,

I understand your point and I think it's a good one. I'm new to this town so this is my first gun purchase since moving here. I did look all over here at several shops and I was getting close to buying one from a local shop but then this deal popped up and it was too good to pass on especially considering that i have a very limited budget. I had never even considered this gun previously because it was out of my price range. So that's why I went with this deal.

brad cook
 
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