Seems so
Background checks
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Seems so
Flechette
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Ultimately, laws are just words on paper. They do not physically stop anyone from doing anything. All they do is state the punishment for committing said action.
For example: It is against the law to commit murder. Murders still happen because the law cannot stop them. Laws are just words on paper. The law simply says, "If you murder someone, the punishment will be..."
So it is futile to look at the Orlando shooting and try to think what law could have prevented it.
For example: It is against the law to commit murder. Murders still happen because the law cannot stop them. Laws are just words on paper. The law simply says, "If you murder someone, the punishment will be..."
So it is futile to look at the Orlando shooting and try to think what law could have prevented it.
buck460XVR
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This is why I stated to those that think UBCs would become a form of registration once enacted, it too(form 4473)would (theoretically by conspiracy)be used as registration. The potential for abuse of such forms has already been in place since 1968 and the inception of form 4473. If one truly believes it is only a matter of time before UBCs are turned into registration, they should already believe the form 4473 already has for almost half a century. Especially since most folks(even the NRA) back then believed in more restrictive gun laws and there was much more evidence and fear of of government conspiracy(Think Watergate and JFK). While the from 4473 does not identify anyone as the present owner of a certain firearm, it does identify them as a gun owner. In a conspiracy to confiscate all the firearms in the country, this is all those folks would need to break down a door. But, I truly doubt, realistically, this is going to happen. What I realistically seeing happening is an enactment at most state levels(as we are already seeing) for UBCs for all purchases with little or no effect on responsible gun ownership, nor significant reduction in gun related crimes.
You have to get pretty far down the conspiracy rabbit hole to think the government is going to find people willing to break down the door of every single home where anybody who filled out a 4473 in their life currently resides, in order to forcibly confiscate all privately possessed firearms/weapons.
buck460XVR
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Oh, I agree Warp. But I see that and other silly claims made here and on every other gun forum I belong to on a regular basis. Because some of those theories are so ridiculous is why I attempted to make fun of it in my first post. Apparently some folks didn't get it. As old Foghorn Leghorn used to say.....
dogtown tom
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Wrong.
If the buyer and seller appear together at a licensed dealer, the buyer completes a Form 4473 and the dealer runs NICS. If the buyer is a proceed he gets the gun. If the sale is a delay or denied, the seller can keep possession WITHOUT having to fill out a Form 4473.
Read https://www.atf.gov/file/88181/download
.
Not in Washington. This is a state matter that has nothing to do with the feds other than the fact a 4473 and the NICS system is being used to facilitate the background check. The firearm is delivered to a dealer and is processed as if it were dealer stock. If the sale falls through it is transferred back to the original owner as if it was coming from dealer stock.
Carl N. Brown
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"... faith ... in the government following its own laws ..."
In the cheesy Sarah-Palin-v-Moon-Nazis Euro-Australian movie "Iron Sky" there is a UN exchange when the President finds everone except Finland has also armed their space craft: "You broke your word." "Your broke yours." "That's what we do." There is international pop-culture recognition that government breaks its word; it's a standard operating procedure for governments everywhere.
"... there's no law that stops ... a straw purchase ..."
There's a law against straw purchase that has been invoked against people buying for prohibited persons and a law against dealing without a license that has been invoked against people with a pattern of buying for resale or who have a "street-rep" of being a unquestioning source of guns or even an old guy who showed up at the local flea market month after month selling off a private collection after being warned repeatedly to stop.
"None of the 4473 that I have ever seen show the make, model, and serial # of the gun. "
Every 4473 I have ever filed out buying a gun since 1968 has had the make, model, caliber and serial number of the gun. 4473 was a big plot point in Red Dawn: Colonel Ernesto Bella: Go to the sporting goods store. From the files obtain forms 4473. These will contain descriptions of weapons, and lists of private ownership.
I do remember dealers had to do a card for gun sale BG checks for awhile -- check-cashing-style thumbprint, personal ID, handgun or long gun; no make, model, ser.num. or caliber, just type of gun for the BG check. I believe the BG check approval number went on the 4473, with everything else. NICS call-in does not require gun description beyond type, but the 4473 always has had make, model, caliber, ser.num..
In the cheesy Sarah-Palin-v-Moon-Nazis Euro-Australian movie "Iron Sky" there is a UN exchange when the President finds everone except Finland has also armed their space craft: "You broke your word." "Your broke yours." "That's what we do." There is international pop-culture recognition that government breaks its word; it's a standard operating procedure for governments everywhere.
"... there's no law that stops ... a straw purchase ..."
There's a law against straw purchase that has been invoked against people buying for prohibited persons and a law against dealing without a license that has been invoked against people with a pattern of buying for resale or who have a "street-rep" of being a unquestioning source of guns or even an old guy who showed up at the local flea market month after month selling off a private collection after being warned repeatedly to stop.
"None of the 4473 that I have ever seen show the make, model, and serial # of the gun. "
Every 4473 I have ever filed out buying a gun since 1968 has had the make, model, caliber and serial number of the gun. 4473 was a big plot point in Red Dawn: Colonel Ernesto Bella: Go to the sporting goods store. From the files obtain forms 4473. These will contain descriptions of weapons, and lists of private ownership.
I do remember dealers had to do a card for gun sale BG checks for awhile -- check-cashing-style thumbprint, personal ID, handgun or long gun; no make, model, ser.num. or caliber, just type of gun for the BG check. I believe the BG check approval number went on the 4473, with everything else. NICS call-in does not require gun description beyond type, but the 4473 always has had make, model, caliber, ser.num..
AlexanderA
Member
Virginia just enacted something like this, as part of a compromise providing for expanded CCW reciprocity. Under this new system, the State Police (who do the NCIS checks in Virginia anyway) set up tables at major gun shows. Any non-FFL seller can go to this State Police table and, for a small fee, ask them to run a check on his prospective buyer. This system is totally voluntary, but there are incentives so that it's to the seller's best interest to make use of it. (I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think it gives the seller immunity from liability if the gun is later misused.)
Nobody in Virginia appears to be complaining about this.
The problem with this is the implication that the seller can be held liable for future actions of the buyer. And the precedent that sets. What's next...requiring a background check on a private sale isn't legally required, but if that gun is ever used for a crime again in the future, the seller is now a criminal. Yay
bikemutt
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In WA maybe, maybe not. Some dealers will do as you suggest, others require the seller to deliver the gun on day one, the buyer to come in on day two (or later). If the buyer is denied, no gun. For the seller to get it back he/she fills out a 4473 and if denied, no gun. There's generally a contract the seller and dealer enter into where if the seller is denied he/she agrees to consign the gun.
See here for just one example: http://www.pintosguns.com/
Go to private transfer section.
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I called the AG's office and was told if I wanted to sell a gun to someone and they failed the BG check I would have to get a 4473 and BG check done on myself to get my gun back. I asked them to send me a statement to that effect in writing and they refused. I sent a request to the AG for the same thing on their website and got a statement back saying they do not provide written opinions to individuals.
bikemutt
Member
I know of one instance where the buyer checked the MJ box because he had a medical MJ permit (or whatever it is that let's someone acquire the drug legally). NICS denied the transfer, the dealer handed the rifle back to the seller without a BG check.
The problem is that WA state does a poor job of communicating to dealers what they are supposed to do in many occasions. I know of one dealer in Castle Rock that was forced out of business after years of not paying sales tax on transfers . When the state audited his books he was on the hook for over $30K in back taxes. I felt genuinely bad for the guy because at least $500 of that was mine. He had a store front but I knew at least 1/2 dozen dealers who never charged tax on transfers .
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