bar fight bystander and a threatening mix-up

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lawson

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A while back, I met some friends at a local bar to discuss a business arrangement. In accordance with arizona law, my handgun was locked in a handgun safe in the car. I don't like the combination of guns and alcohol, so if I have a drink, the gun stays locked up until I get home.

This particular bar was a bit on the seedy side, and many of the patrons reflected this. It's not the type of place I would normally choose to discuss business, but I didn't get to choose the location of the meeting.

We were quietly talking in a corner when a fight breaks out. Very quickly it escalated into a good-sized brawl. In my years as a bouncer, these sorts of fights have a tendency to get out of hand, since there are those who are itching to fight. I quietly stood up and exited through the back door to avoid walking closer to the fight, which I would have needed to do in order to exit through the main entrance.

Pretty soon after I left I noticed I was being followed through the parking lot by a couple of guys involved in the brawl. I picked up the pace and got in my car, locking the doors as soon as I was seated. One of the guys tried to open the passenger door, which was locked, and the other stood directly behind my car, pounding on the trunk and screaming for me to get out.

The handgun was locked in the car safe beneath the seat, and the key was on the same ring as my car key. I could either unlock the safe, or start the car and try to get out of there. I chose to start the car, and I backed slowly out, hoping the guy pounding on my trunk would decide to get out of the way.

He did move, and I pulled out of the parking lot and drove to a nearby well-lit gas station and called the police from inside. The dispatcher told me they had already received a call and had units en route.

Should I have done anything different?
 
Start your car, back out of the parking place and drive off. Way faster than calling 911 or getting out the gun. Easy no hassle way.

If the guy gets run over tell the cops when you have time to dial 911.

In my years as a bouncer
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As Ron White would say "go home and watch Road House and play with your self":D
 
I have also worked as a bouncer, and later the manager of a Nightclub/Bar. I think you did just right, and I can't imagine what you might have done better. Seems like you had good situational awareness and logic. And once you were in the car, you had the means to make a fast and fairly armored egress. I might have returned to the scene to attempt to identify those people to the police.
 
By Arizona standards you did well. As you describe the incident, deadly force would have probably not been justified, and had you got to it, brandishing a handgun could have made the situation worse. As you saw no weapons you should have been safe inside the car. If they started breaking out the windows that would have been something else. As it was you wisely disengaged and left.

You should consider a different lock-box arrangement so that you don't have to choose between leaving, or getting to your gun. Sometime you may need to do both at the same time.
 
I think you did the right thing, why fight when you can leave the situation safely. From what I understand Arizona recently passed the "stand-your-ground" law, but I have mixed feeling about that, why stand your ground when you can leave the situation? To me its not worth it, I have nothing to proove. I got my black belt in karate ten years ago and for the last six I've been doing Aikido, I could defend myself if need be. However I'm happy that I've never needed hurt anyone and hope I never have to.

Good job!
 
I did give a statement, but I couldn't give an accurate description of the guys trying to get into my car because of the angles and my focus on leaving. They were not the people I was at the bar with, and one of them was wearing a leather jacket. In reflection, it's a bit odd to be wearing a leather jacket when it's nearly 90 degrees outside, so who knows what the guy had underneath the coat. It's probably for the best that I didn't brandish a firearm. The kind of guy who would try to pull you out of your car may also be the type to ignore the "no firearms in an establishment that serves alcohol in open containers" law.

I spent several years as a bouncer, and also as head of security and management of nightclubs. My original interest in CCW was because I was making bank deposits with large amounts of cash. I like to be aware of my surroundings, and especially where the exits are.

I should find another way to unlock the safe while my keys are in the ignition. I don't want to leave the key to the lockbox in the car. Maybe I should look into one with a keyless lock. I have business meetings in restaurants that serve alcohol several times a week, so I use the car safe quite often.
 
Unlock box, then start car. For me in my jeep, I have to unlock my Tuffy console to access my stereo anyhow. However, I got no hardtop or hardside doors, so the confrontation would have likely got me drug out of the vehicle.

Stand your ground would be in my favor, but I think it's unanimous none of us ever want it to go down this way, exiting the situation is always the high road. Unless of course, it's somehow blocked, then it can get ugly.

good work, you avoided confrontation.
 
I've had to stand my ground in regards to self-defense, and like most of us that have it's not an experience I care to repeat. Had the guy not moved clear of my rear bumper, things may have been different. I escaped with nothing more than a kicked out tail light. (sidenote: I was pulled over for said tail light two days later, and couldn't help but chuckle; where were they when it was being kicked out?)

Leaving was my priority. I try my best to always take the high road.
 
I use keychains that are in two pieces. They are held together by a spring collar coupling similar to what is used on pneumatic air tools. I keep the house keys, gun safe key, etc on one side, the ignition, door, and gas cap key on the other side, so I don't have to fumble around taking keys off the keyring when I drop off at the detailers, dealership, loan car out, etc.
IIRC I bought them at NAPA but I am sure you can get them lots of places.

My one old truck the ignition lock was worn out, needed a key to turn the lock but you could pull the keys out even if it was still running. That was convenient.

Sounds like you avoided a confontation easily. Sounds like that was the right thing to do to me.
 
zipties work for keys. use a small ziptie and attach the safe key to the ring that way. in an emergency you can twist and break the tie and the safe key is seperated fast.

i use this method for securely attaching spare keys to automobiles. up under the car or truck in a very hidden area. they wont fall off and are easily detached if needed. beats those cheap magnetic boxes you see.
 
Glad you're okay. I think you did what you could.

1) avoided the original confrontation
2) properly assesed threat levels
3) did not escalate a situation that you could remove yourself from

I have witnessed / been involved in my fair share of bar fights and a mob mentality takes over.
 
But...did you leave your friends?
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You probably should have stayed with your friends. That way, you could either share the same jail cell or hospital room.

Let's see....you got out with your life, your health, and arrest record intact. Should answer the question.

I stopped in a watering hole last summer with one of my friends, maybe 5 in the afternoon. One of the girls (being cute) slings an ice cube at the back of one the customer's head. She quickly scoots off. He turns around and sees a guy sitting there and thinks it's this dude. Time to exit. Things can get real bad real quick.
 
lawson
A while back, I met some friends at a local bar to discuss a business arrangement. In accordance with arizona law, my handgun was locked in a handgun safe in the car. I don't like the combination of guns and alcohol, so if I have a drink, the gun stays locked up until I get home.

This particular bar was a bit on the seedy side, and many of the patrons reflected this. It's not the type of place I would normally choose to discuss business, but I didn't get to choose the location of the meeting.
Click to expand...

Staying out of places that have a higher risk for bad things happening is a priority for me. I would have insisted on a different venue, and if not allowed that change would just not participate.
 
Sorry I can't address your quotes directly, my quote buttons disappeared.

Daniel Flory: Did I leave my friends? Yep, I sure did. They chose the place to meet. They stood up to watch when the fight broke out with no sign of leaving. I stood up, put a few bucks on the table, and left. I didn't abandon them when they needed my help. You have to understand, I can't afford health insurance, but I make barely too much money to get it from the state. I can't afford to get badly hurt. If I don't work, I don't eat.

Evan Price & Rusty Maggot: Those are both good ideas. Most of the keyless handgun safes are too big to be hidden in my car, so having a quick detach ring for my safe key would work well.

Mannlicher: Now I choose the meeting places, or at least approve them. I always make note of where all the exits are, and try to sit where I can see everything, and leave quickly if need be.
 
I was just curious, personally, there are some friends that I just wouldn't leave regardless of the circumstances. Aquaintances on the other hand...
 
You did the right thing. I hope the BG's were arrested and you will get restitution for the damages to your car. I can't imagine what your life would be like now if you had managed to take the time to retrieve your weapon and kill the assailants instead of driving away. Worse yet perhaps wounding them. What a legal nightmare.
 
You're right, Daniel. I should've specified in my original post. There are those that I would take a bullet for. These were just business acquaintances.
 
My pickup weighs about 10 to the 7,000 power more than the grains of ALL the bullets in my carry gun and spare reloads put together...

you used the right key, and the right method to employ what it unlocked...

Retreat if possible, use the vehicle as a weapon if necessary... (now, what does my 6,500 pound pickup weigh in grains?)
 
You're right, Daniel. I should've specified in my original post. There are those that I would take a bullet for. These were just business acquaintances.
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RRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNN!!!! :evil:
 
You must be a pretty big dude if you were an ex bouncer. I find it odd that two guys would follow you out of the bar like that. Next, is your car a beater? And did that knuckle head leave dents on your trunk? I don't take well to people beating on my car. ("You just don't mess with another man's vehicle, it's just against the rules") (Vincent Vega, Pulp Fiction) Are there other parts of the story we're missing?
 
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