Basic Questions on Pump Actions

[barnbwt]

I admit it; I'm a bit embarrassed I don't have much experience with pumps. I had a Franchi I12 semiauto I couldn't shoot worth a darn (poor fit) which I replaced with a Franchi O/U (which I shoot like a laser beam). A break-open is pretty self explanatory, as far as controls; a pump, less so.

I'd like to get an inexpensive ambidextrous pump some time in the near future, and I've narrowed it down (I think) to the Browning BPS, Ithaca M37(my current favorite), and to a lesser extent the Remington M17. Particularly with the Ithacas, because of all the variations over the years, I have a few questions:

-Bump firing; it appears to allow the hammer to drop when racked for really fast rate of fire (but useless accuracy, I'm guessing). Is this a legal feature, and is it independent of the trigger (i.e. it always fires when pumped )?
-"Tactical" reload or topping off; is there anything preventing any of these guns from having rounds added to the magazine while a round is chambered?
-Do you prefer one of these platforms over the others? Better built, better trigger, etc?

TCB

 

[Fred Fuller]

-Bump firing; it appears to allow the hammer to drop when racked for really fast rate of fire (but useless accuracy, I'm guessing). Is this a legal feature, and is it independent of the trigger (i.e. it always fires when pumped )?

It isn't bump firing - it's just a design that doesn't include a disconnector. The BPS does have a disconnector and requires another pull of the trigger to fire each shell. The Ithaca 37 (along with the Win 97, Win Model 12, Stevens 520/620 etc) does not have a disconnector and will fire as the forearm is closed as long as the trigger is held back and there is ammunition in the magazine. The newer Ithacas (87s) have disconnectors. It's legal to use a pump design without a disconnector. And the level of accuracy, as always, depends on the shooter.

-"Tactical" reload or topping off; is there anything preventing any of these guns from having rounds added to the magazine while a round is chambered?

As long as the action is closed and the hammer is cocked, any of these designs I'm familiar with can be topped up until the magazine is full.

 

[oneounceload]

Most folks called it "slam firing" - as you slammed the action closed you could fire the gun, since you held the trigger back the whole time.

 

[jmr40]

I'm not aware of any pumps currently in production that would allow you to just hold down the trigger while you cycle ammo through. There were some older designs that would do this. Newer guns require you to release the trigger so it can reset before firing another shot

I don't see any real advantage to the older design. With practce a shooter can shoot a pump pretty fast and accuracy trumps rate of fire in my opinion anyway.

As to a preference, I like the 870 best. I've always liked the Ithica design and have thought i'd like one, but have never bought one. The only real disadvantage is that they have been in and out of production my entire life and you never know from one year to the next if they are still going to be made. I see very few on used racks around here, but I've always liked the ones I've handled. Just not quite enough to buy it.

I have owned a Browning and liked a lot about them as well. They tend to be a bit heavier than I like, but based on personal experiece would make it my top choice for someone looking for a gun that can be fired from either side.

 

[jaguarxk120]

There's no disadvantage to the Ithaca Model 37, there may have been very short time they were not made when the company was reorganizing, but that's all in the past.

Ithaca is alive and well in Ohio and has brought out new models of the M37 (they all work the same way) to follow the shooting sports.

The "slamfire" fature is very missleading, the Ithaca's and Winchester 12's will fire if the trigger is held back and the action operated. But they only fire after the breach bolt go's into full lockup.

 

[BigJimP]

In my opinion, the better built pump gun on the market today is the BPS.

It has a smoother action, its cast neutral ( so it'll fit Lefties or right handed shooters), safety is on the tang where its easy to reach even if you're wearing gloves.
-------------------
The model I prefer is the BPS Hunter model - and in my area its selling for around $ 550 or so new...

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=011B&cid=012&tid=211
--------------
I've had BPS Hunter models, in 12ga and 20ga ...for over 30 yrs ....and they're still solid guns / they've been thru a couple of boys and now some grandkids... as entry level - guns to learn on ....and I've never had an issue with either one of them ( and they've killed thousands and thousands of clay targets and live birds).

My primary guns - for clays or live birds - are now O/U's ...but I still take the BPS's out once in a while / they fit like an old pair of cowboy boots....

 

[ErieLurker]

If this is for hunting, go for the Ithaca.

 

[John Peddie]

I have a 37 and three BPS.

Love them all.

37 is lighter and quicker in my hands. I'd say the action is smoother, but mine (1958) is almost as old as me, so it's been well broken in.

BPS are heavier to carry for any distance, but have a top tang safety.

If you started shotgunning with a break action as I did, your thumb just naturally "looks" for the safety when a pheasant flushes. Finding some silly button with your trigger finger is just not "natural" for you-a feature which has ensured some of "my" pheasants lived another day when I was carrying the 37 and couldn't get the safety off fast enough.

Bottom load / eject is something you either love or hate. I love it-shells drop at your feet, and don't fly across and hit your duck blind buddy in the face. Offset is that it takes an extra couple of seconds to reload-usually not a "mission-critical" factor.

Both are rock solid-none of the forearm rattle I hear about with other pump makes.

 

[barnbwt]

Most folks called it "slam firing" - as you slammed the action closed you could fire the gun, since you held the trigger back the whole time.

Yeah, I meant slam-firing (I was confoozled since that word also has a dual meaning nothing to do with shotguns). I'm glad it's still trigger-controlled; I thought it may have been some weird riot-gun feature; something to eliminate the trigger and make operation simpler.

Bottom load / eject is something you either love or hate. I love it-shells drop at your feet, and don't fly across and hit your duck blind buddy in the face. Offset is that it takes an extra couple of seconds to reload-usually not a "mission-critical" factor

Don't most pumps load from the bottom (though I guess you can see through the ejection port somewhat)? Anyway, I'm toying with the idea (from some of my earlier posts on here) of cobbling together a replacement stock that essentially mounts the action upside down, but still locates the trigger at the usual spot below-barrel. I heard the M37 kicks shells forward (don't know about the BPS) assertively, so top-ejection might not be the annoyance it could be (at least that's the theory). I never liked loading shotguns from the bottom (I like to see what I'm doing) so doing it from the top seems like it would be preferable. I guess you'd maybe get a worse bore parallax out of the deal, but a reflex sight could compensate. And maybe it'd be slightly more dirt/dust/rain sensitive (but perhaps a dust cover would work).

Of course, I'd also like the opportunity to own a nice, solid pump gun, good in the clothes it came in . The M17 Remington (which I'm told is a proto-M37) was very light and handy; almost like a break-top--very desirable. But it seems they only made them in 20ga. As much as I like Mr. Browning, I think the Ithaca improved version would be preferable. I just have not had the opportunity to handle most of these, since they are a bit uncommon.

Both are rock solid-none of the forearm rattle I hear about with other pump makes.

Well, that's cool; my brother's 870 irritates me with all it's rattles (remember, I'm used to an O/U tighter than an *insert off-color reference here*). I really wish I could find one of these nearby (need to see if there are any good gunshows coming up...)

TCB

 

[Snarlingiron]

Just my 2¢ worth, but there is a definite advantage to having a side eject such as the 870. It is faster. You cannot toss a round into the ejection port and close the action on a bottom eject gun such as the BPS, or Ithaca. You have to insert a round into the magazine and operate the slide. This makes exercises such as select a slug or load one, shoot one more difficult and slower.

 

[jaguarxk120]

We who own the Ithaca Model 37 load from the bottom and do not cycle the action. The shell is just slipped into the chamber with the lifter forks in the up position.

Once you do this you will see how easy it is.

 

[Snarlingiron]

We who own the Ithaca Model 37 load from the bottom and do not cycle the action. The shell is just slipped into the chamber with the lifter forks in the up position.

My ignorance showing through. I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing the Ithaca Model 37. Would love to have the opportunity. Maybe someday.

 

[Kymasabe]

I shot trap for 6 years with a Remington 870 Wingmaster. sold it. was pump-less for a couple of years, then bought a Mossberg 500. Never thought I'd own a Mossberg but after trying one, the release and the safety are in much better places than those on the Remington, it's all personal preference, what gun fits, what doesn't. I haven't found a Winchester that I liked, ever. The Ithaca 37 is usually pretty decent and I've found to be lighter than most other pumps I've fired, but again, just never fit me well. If there's a local trap range near you or sporting clays range, go hang out and see if any of the shooters will let you fire a few rounds to see how the guns feel.

 

[jaguarxk120]

Snarlingiron, if you ever get a chance to hunt with a Ithaca in 16 or 20 gauge you will find out how nice they are. For birds or rabbits they can't be beat, just a great handling shotgun.

 

[drcook]

So much depends on the purpose that you would be buying a pump shotgun for.

Self defense in the home ? Get a new matte finish Remington 870 with one of the shorter tactical type barrels, Won't cost you much and will be under warranty and will last your lifetime in that role.

Hunting ? Any of them will do it and do it about equally as far as putting shot down range on the target. However, either a BPS or an Ithaca will do it with a little more grace than a Mossberg 500 or a Rem 870.

The older Ithacas are smoother because of the all the hand fitting that went into them, not being worn in. Currently I have 5 Ithacas. 2 dedicated deer guns with the screwed in barrels, 2 12 gauges from different eras (post 1970 eras being where they were built at) and a 16 gauge that was built in 1956 that feels like it runs on glass rails and handles oh so sweet and makes harvesting rabbits really easy.

I have a 1952 vintage Ithaca 37 16 gauge going to be on the way here from Colorado in the next couple weeks.

Ithacas are sort of a niche gun. The folks that have them are aficionados/collectors/hunters that appreciate the lightness and handling characteristics.

The newer Ithacas are a bit more expensive than say a BPS and may not fit as many people right off the shelf as the BPS would. They have a bit further reach to the slide than the older Ithacas do.

There is a pawn shop in Barberton Oh (Sydmors) that has a bunch of Ithacas. 3 more 16 gauge 37's, a pretty nice older fixed choke 12 ga, a vent rib 12 made in Kings Ferry, with choke tubes and one of the older Deerslayers.

 

[barnbwt]

So much depends on the purpose that you would be buying a pump shotgun for.

Well, an interesting gunsmithing experiment to make a top-loading pump action, actually. Kinda limits my options to one of two or three platforms--one of them significantly more expensive than the other (or any left-handed side eject action). I'm elated the Ithicas possess all the basic features of the more "common" platforms, and are well made, to boot! A rough-shape Ithaca Featherlight (or whatever their name) is in my near-future

They have a bit further reach to the slide than the older Ithacas do.

Cool, with the ejection/loading port on top, I could move the slide all the way back to the trigger guard, if I wanted

TCB

 

[jaguarxk120]

barnbwt you have the facts reversed, the other platforms follow the form of the Ithaca Model 37. It's called the Model 37 because the year it was introduced was 1937 and as been in production since.

If you compare the Model 37 to other pump gun designs you find that the Ithaca has less parts that other makes.

 

[barnbwt]

I apparently scored what may be the only good deal I've seen on Gunbroker lately; I was up with a stomach flu, and idly bidded on a beat up Ithaca M37, and found I had apparently won the auction in the morning for 150$ shipped


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=321282386

Filed down sights, notched out foregrip(?), and crude Police Dept engravings; sounds like a candidate for a chop-job to me! I'm totally expecting this thing to be broken, or something... Who knows, I've gotten exactly one good deal on a firearm in the past, so it's not unheard of

It appears to have a full-length barrel (28"?), so I may even have some room to increase magazine capacity with a longer tube. Oh, the possibilities! I'll give an update when it arrives in a week or two.

TCB

 

[Deer_Freak]

A lot of people turn their nose up at stevens pumps but they are great for left handed shooters. Stevens are a lot like mossbergs they are inexpensive but they are not cheap. I borrow a stevens from a friend to hunt small game when I visit. A rabbit better have his running shoes on to get away from the old stevens.

 

[jaguarxk120]

barnbwt, nice find, it will be a good shotgun for you.

 

[Still Shooting]

Ithaca Fan

I have an Ithaca Model 37 16ga. that I bought in my senior year at college in 1968. It got "company" over the years; an SKB 500 20ga. O/U first, then later a 1930 Ainsley Fox Sterlingworth 12ga. I love all 3 guns, but the ithaca has put more pheasant, ducks, grouse, and woodcock on the table than the other 2 combined!

Shortly after I got my 37, I did a "rubdown" on the action internals with diamond and rouge grit, and with the action open I can drop the barrel down quickly and the action will close and lock without my touching the pump. At the time I bought it, Herters was selling a large head safety, which was ambidextrous and which helps in finding the safety button with gloves on, or if I'm in a hurry to get the safety off. The switchover took about 20 minutes.

My young wife is a beginning shooter, so I sent my Ithaca to the factory in Ohio to have a new, multichoke barrel fitted. While it was there, I also had them re-blue the receiver and the mag tube. the original barrel is a 26" Imp. Cyl. bore, as that's all that was around locally Those guys did a beautiful job with the "old girl!" I paid a total of $409 for a new 26" barrel (balances and swings faster than a 28"), with 3 Briley chokes (Imp., Modified, Full). They headspaced both barrels at no extra charge, replaced all of the screws in the action, and sent me back a gun that looks like new! It now is my wife's "learning gun," an she's catching on real fast.

Whatever you do with your new Model 37, enjoy it. Shoot it some before you do anything radical with it - you may find you love it just as it is!