BASIC - RE-WORKING UP LOADS??

[Vettepilot555]

Shooting/reloading 223/556 at the moment. AR-15's. I like to load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit for safety. Now, my questions:

I had a load worked up that I liked using CCI primers. The specifics are not important to the question at hand. I scored some Fiocchi primers, (at a truly horrid price.)

So, I dropped the charge two full grains to be safe, and loaded up a batch of test rounds in .2 grain incremental steps. Two rounds at each step. That cost me 20 bullets, 20 precious primers, my powder, etc.

I know this is how "the book" would have you do it, but is this really how it's done in the real world, in order to verify a different primer??

Next question. My shooting can range from an ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115. How much allowance should one make for ball powder rounds that might get shot on one of my hot days? (Those are pretty rare, as when it's that hot, I just become a vampire and stay inside!)

Last question!!

I have an AR-15 in 223 Wylde. My daughter has an AR-15 with the "looser" chambered 556. Is it really necessary to use up components doing the complete full, aforementioned load workup in her gun in order to safely use my rounds/loads in both guns?? Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers with it's looser chamber?? Maybe drop just a half grain and test to be super safe??

Thanks for input,
Vettepilot

 

[243winxb]

in order to verify a different primer??

Mid-range pressure loads, (40,000 PSI) work with all primers. Maximum loads need reduced & worked up.

ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115.

Work up the loading on the hottest day, if possible.

Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers

I think the 223 Wylde handles high pressure better? To many differences in chambers. Longer freebore, less pressure?

 

[243winxb]

Old, but useful- See- 223 Remington vs. 5.56×45–Chambering and Throat Considerations.
https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

The Colt M16A1 5.56 Nato chamber is longer, head to datum then others. But not by much.

 

[Remington1911]

I always back way off when changing......ANYTHING. I only came with one face, two eyeballs......you get the idea. Do you have to do it.....I doubt it, will I always do it, you bet.....just incase.

The temp thing, I don't think I can shoot well enough for it to matter....I am sure some can, just not me.....and yea....115, inside doing something else. Here we have not hit 100 in several years now. But the humidity in the 90% range with temps also in the 90's does suck bad....you just drip.

 

[Walkalong]

“ I like to load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit for safety. Now, my questions:“

Thats not a good way to do it, by the time you see pressure signs your well over max. Simply not a safe practice.

 

[JFrank]

What type of pressure are we talking about ?
Slight resistance when opening the bolt?
Are the primers backing out or flattening ?
Heavy swipe marks on case or extractor claw marks ?
If a guy doesn’t run a pressure ladder how would he know the limit of the brass ?

 

[Remington1911]

I work up my loads like this:

With an automatic I will start where the gun will run, generally about a quarter way between low and mid way, weight wise. Then from there I work up in small steps, depends on the powder how big that step is, could be as little as .1 and as much as .5 of a grain. When the numbers look good, and the holes are good I stop there.

Back when I hunted I would start where the bullet would be happy and work from there.....only hunt steel now, so getting accurate loads is where I stop.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have an AR-15 in 223 Wylde. My daughter has an AR-15 with the "looser" chambered 556. Is it really necessary to use up components doing the complete full, aforementioned load workup in her gun in order to safely use my rounds/loads in both guns?? Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers with it's looser chamber?? Maybe drop just a half grain and test to be super safe??

Have you considered buying a strain gauge and testing actual pressure for your loads before risking your daughter's well-being on guesswork?
Let me rephrase that: you really should buy a strain gauge and test actual pressure for your loads before risking your daughter's well-being on guesswork.
There's a very thick, broad, comfy line between deflagration and detonation. There's no sense walking the edge of that line.

 

[Kaldor]

Shooting/reloading 223/556 at the moment. AR-15's. I like to load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit for safety. Now, my questions:

I had a load worked up that I liked using CCI primers. The specifics are not important to the question at hand. I scored some Fiocchi primers, (at a truly horrid price.)

So, I dropped the charge two full grains to be safe, and loaded up a batch of test rounds in .2 grain incremental steps. Two rounds at each step. That cost me 20 bullets, 20 precious primers, my powder, etc.

I know this is how "the book" would have you do it, but is this really how it's done in the real world, in order to verify a different primer??

Next question. My shooting can range from an ambient temp of 50 degrees to an occasional 115. How much allowance should one make for ball powder rounds that might get shot on one of my hot days? (Those are pretty rare, as when it's that hot, I just become a vampire and stay inside!)

Last question!!

I have an AR-15 in 223 Wylde. My daughter has an AR-15 with the "looser" chambered 556. Is it really necessary to use up components doing the complete full, aforementioned load workup in her gun in order to safely use my rounds/loads in both guns?? Or should what's safe in my gun, be also safe in hers with it's looser chamber?? Maybe drop just a half grain and test to be super safe??

Thanks for input,
Vettepilot

I load to pressure signs as well. In fact, and people will disagree with me, I start at the max book value and work backwards in various jumps based on total case capacity or level of testing desired. If I dont see pressure and the results Im looking for, Ill bump above book max a jump or two if I think its safe. Its probably not the best way to do things, but it does work. But I generally am shooting a Satterlee test and I am watching every single piece of brass that comes out of the gun and can see the pressure signs as they come on.

You dropping 2gr is a good place to start. Is it 100% necessary? I think it is if you are running at the top end of a load range, which if you are working to max, and then backing off a bit, you need to verify the new primer. Now the question of backing off 2gr? I dont think its completely necessary to go that far back. Example: Your CCI load is 24gr. The Fiochi load I would back off say .5gr and just check. However, if your load is far under book max, just swapping primers isnt going to blow up a gun. Example: Max is 25gr, but youre at 23.5gr for your load, swapping primers at that low of a powder charge isnt going to cause an issue. The only real change you might see is accuracy based. If your CCI load is lights out good, but you swap primers and it goes sideways, then a new workup is needed. This is a judgement call for you.

Temperature is a huge deal. You have to be careful with temp unstable powders. Look at a powder like CFE-223. Its awful in the heat. Ive gone from a perfectly safe load with no pressure signs at 60 degrees, to blowing primers at 80 degrees. Im not one for leaving ammo just sit in the heat, so its just that particular powder. Other ball powders can have this issue, but lets just say Ive had more issues with CFE-223 than any other. As a general rule though, load test at your hottest temp you will ever shoot that load at as its just a good safety margin.

Wylde vs. 5.56 chamber? The 5.56 chamber is looser and has a longer leade. You can see that in any SAAMI or reamer drawing. As a general rule, yes, the Wylde load will shoot from the 5.56 chamber without excessive pressure issue just due to the chamber itself. However, do not assume anything, and taking a few shots thru her gun and taking a peek for pressure signs is a good idea before loading up a full mag and going to town.

I think you are on the right track, and being safe rather than sorry is a good approach.

 

[ParallelCode]

...I start at the max book value and work backwards in various jumps based on total case capacity or level of testing desired...

That sounds extremely dangerous. The max charge in a manual is based on the pressure observed in the specific barrel they used during testing. I can make inferences from the data, but I'm well aware that another barrel will potentially behave differently -- hence working up. Obviously to each their own, but I can't imagine approaching load data that way.

 

[Varminterror]

I had a load worked up that I liked using CCI primers.

How did you develop this first load?

I’d recommend designing your rework around the same development strategy you used to define your nodes in the first load.

Effectively, I “rework” my loads a couple times per month. I use a revision of the Satterlee method to define my nodes, so if I change primers, lots of powder, or even brass, I can redefine my nodes quickly and easily. I’m only out 8 shots to rework, plus 5-10 foulers/warmers.

 

[Varminterror]

I start at the max book value and work backwards

Bad, bad reloading practice here.

 

[Vettepilot555]

I load to pressure signs as well. In fact, and people will disagree with me, I start at the max book value and work backwards in various jumps based on total case capacity or level of testing desired. If I dont see pressure and the results Im looking for, Ill bump above book max a jump or two if I think its safe. Its probably not the best way to do things, but it does work. But I generally am shooting a Satterlee test and I am watching every single piece of brass that comes out of the gun and can see the pressure signs as they come on.

You dropping 2gr is a good place to start. Is it 100% necessary? I think it is if you are running at the top end of a load range, which if you are working to max, and then backing off a bit, you need to verify the new primer. Now the question of backing off 2gr? I dont think its completely necessary to go that far back. Example: Your CCI load is 24gr. The Fiochi load I would back off say .5gr and just check. However, if your load is far under book max, just swapping primers isnt going to blow up a gun. Example: Max is 25gr, but youre at 23.5gr for your load, swapping primers at that low of a powder charge isnt going to cause an issue. The only real change you might see is accuracy based. If your CCI load is lights out good, but you swap primers and it goes sideways, then a new workup is needed. This is a judgement call for you.

Temperature is a huge deal. You have to be careful with temp unstable powders. Look at a powder like CFE-223. Its awful in the heat. Ive gone from a perfectly safe load with no pressure signs at 60 degrees, to blowing primers at 80 degrees. Im not one for leaving ammo just sit in the heat, so its just that particular powder. Other ball powders can have this issue, but lets just say Ive had more issues with CFE-223 than any other. As a general rule though, load test at your hottest temp you will ever shoot that load at as its just a good safety margin.

Wylde vs. 5.56 chamber? The 5.56 chamber is looser and has a longer leade. You can see that in any SAAMI or reamer drawing. As a general rule, yes, the Wylde load will shoot from the 5.56 chamber without excessive pressure issue just due to the chamber itself. However, do not assume anything, and taking a few shots thru her gun and taking a peek for pressure signs is a good idea before loading up a full mag and going to town.

I think you are on the right track, and being safe rather than sorry is a good approach.

Some of the replies did not address my questions at all. It's funny how that with nearly anything one posts in a forum, someone will jump in and try to talk you out of it, and/or post something completely irrelevant. (And I am not advocating for someone to "just agree with you."

This, however, is an excellent reply, and I thank you very much!

When pondering a question, I sometimes step back and attempt to analyze it from an entirely different perspective. For example, considering loads tested in my 223 Wylde being shot in my daughters 556 chambered rifle, let's ponder this... Factory rounds have very good performance velocity wise. Their velocity is generally so good, that reloaders sometimes have trouble beating it, or indeed, even matching it. Yet the ammo is safe to shoot in all specified, modern yet different guns. You don't see guns blowing up willy-nilly using factory ammo.

So take a load proven to be safe in my 223 Wylde. Here, we have proven that this particular load has not exhibited a hot batch of this brand and type of powder, and shows a good case/primer/powder/bullet combination and relationship regarding pressure. So, at this point would it not be safe to consider this to be like a factory round, and safe in most guns? Well, perhaps not, if the load is near max, and is going to be used in a tighter setup. But surely it would be safe in a looser setup.

However, I think in this case, for extra security I'll go with the "lower .5 grain and test" idea for the 556.

Thanks again, for all the replies,
Vettepilot

 

[Barbaroja]

Some of the replies did not address my questions at all. It's funny how that with nearly anything one posts in a forum, someone will jump in and try to talk you out of it, and/or post something completely irrelevant. (And I am not advocating for someone to "just agree with you."

This, however, is an excellent reply, and I thank you very much!

When pondering a question, I sometimes step back and attempt to analyze it from an entirely different perspective. For example, considering loads tested in my 223 Wylde being shot in my daughters 556 chambered rifle, let's ponder this... Factory rounds have very good performance velocity wise. Their velocity is generally so good, that reloaders sometimes have trouble beating it, or indeed, even matching it. Yet the ammo is safe to shoot in all specified, modern yet different guns. You don't see guns blowing up willy-nilly using factory ammo.

So take a load proven to be safe in my 223 Wylde. Here, we have proven that this particular load has not exhibited a hot batch of this brand and type of powder, and shows a good case/primer/powder/bullet combination and relationship regarding pressure. So, at this point would it not be safe to consider this to be like a factory round, and safe in most guns? Well, perhaps not, if the load is near max, and is going to be used in a tighter setup. But surely it would be safe in a looser setup.

However, I think in this case, for extra security I'll go with the "lower .5 grain and test" idea for the 556.

Thanks again, for all the replies,
Vettepilot

This is called confirmation bias. You disregard all the posts that don’t agree with you. Your both using unsafe loading practices.

 

[243winxb]

CCI primers.

In my experance CCI 400 primers show pressure early. At maybe 43,000 + PSI. A guess. The old Remington 7 1/2 dont.

 

[Kaldor]

That sounds extremely dangerous. The max charge in a manual is based on the pressure observed in the specific barrel they used during testing. I can make inferences from the data, but I'm well aware that another barrel will potentially behave differently -- hence working up. Obviously to each their own, but I can't imagine approaching load data that way.

Bad, bad reloading practice here.

You gents are missing the point here. I use the max as a guide. I am not afraid of creeping up on a what would be considered a max charge. Keep in mind when I do a Satterlee string I am only shooting a single round per charge weight, and if I see early pressure, I just stop and pull whats left, thus ending the test. Ive had to pull rounds. Isnt the first time, wont be the last.

For example this is the exact workup I did on my 6 Creed
Charges of H4350 were:
40, 40.2, 40.4, 40.6, 40.8, 41, 41.2, 41.4, 41.6, 41.8
Bullet: Berger 109 Hybrid
Cases: Peterson small rifle
Primers: CCI BR4

That puts me at .2gr over book max per Hodgdon which is 37.8-41.6 per their load data based on a 108 ELD-M. That is hardly earth shattering as far as me pushing the envelope, and the rest of the load range is obviously covering a very large 2gr spread. You might ask why dont I start at the very bottom? Its very simple. Its a waste of time and materials. You normally will see 2 or even 3 charges that will accurately shoot over a given load range. In this particular test I found 2 nodes inside of that 2gr spread, one at 40.2-40.4 and the second at 41-41.4. The velocity difference was 70fps in a single grain, so I went with the higher charge, as it showed no pressure signs, was under book max, and shoots 2" groups at 500 yards. Im not interested in the low velocity loads as I mostly shoot all my rifles at 500-1200 yards depending what they are. Leaving a 200 or more FPS on the table makes a huge difference at a 1000 yards. With this 6 Creed load I showed that a single grain was 70fps in my testing, so running 200+ FPS under what I could get safely is pointless for me.

The TLDR version? I generally use book max as my absolute max and I start well under book max and work to it.

 

[Kaldor]

In my experance CCI 400 primers show pressure early. At maybe 43,000 + PSI. A guess. The old Remington 7 1/2 dont.

Youre taking an educated guess as do I.
In my personal experience with a 24" Criterion 223 Wylde AR I can safely push the envelope to what some people would consider to be unsafe with CCI 400s with 8208 XBR and 69s and 77s. I can easily get velocities of 2800 fps with a 77 and 3000fps with a 69. If you compare my velocity to what Hodgdon is showing, Im well above 50k PSI with slightly flattened primers with no flow or or damage to the brass. This experience has been developed over the course of at least 2000 77gr and 4000 69gr bullets.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Some of the replies did not address my questions at all. It's funny how that with nearly anything one posts in a forum, someone will jump in and try to talk you out of it, and/or post something completely irrelevant. (And I am not advocating for someone to "just agree with you."

This, however, is an excellent reply, and I thank you very much!

When pondering a question, I sometimes step back and attempt to analyze it from an entirely different perspective. For example, considering loads tested in my 223 Wylde being shot in my daughters 556 chambered rifle, let's ponder this... Factory rounds have very good performance velocity wise. Their velocity is generally so good, that reloaders sometimes have trouble beating it, or indeed, even matching it. Yet the ammo is safe to shoot in all specified, modern yet different guns. You don't see guns blowing up willy-nilly using factory ammo.

So take a load proven to be safe in my 223 Wylde. Here, we have proven that this particular load has not exhibited a hot batch of this brand and type of powder, and shows a good case/primer/powder/bullet combination and relationship regarding pressure. So, at this point would it not be safe to consider this to be like a factory round, and safe in most guns? Well, perhaps not, if the load is near max, and is going to be used in a tighter setup. But surely it would be safe in a looser setup.

However, I think in this case, for extra security I'll go with the "lower .5 grain and test" idea for the 556.

Thanks again, for all the replies,
Vettepilot

I'm surprised you didn't like the idea of buying a strain gauge and gathering actual pressure data from your actual firearms. I thought it was a pretty good idea for anyone loading for another shooter.

Ah, well, so be it. Start with a proofing load and work back to an accuracy node.

 

[Kaldor]

Some of the replies did not address my questions at all. It's funny how that with nearly anything one posts in a forum, someone will jump in and try to talk you out of it, and/or post something completely irrelevant. (And I am not advocating for someone to "just agree with you."

This, however, is an excellent reply, and I thank you very much!

When pondering a question, I sometimes step back and attempt to analyze it from an entirely different perspective. For example, considering loads tested in my 223 Wylde being shot in my daughters 556 chambered rifle, let's ponder this... Factory rounds have very good performance velocity wise. Their velocity is generally so good, that reloaders sometimes have trouble beating it, or indeed, even matching it. Yet the ammo is safe to shoot in all specified, modern yet different guns. You don't see guns blowing up willy-nilly using factory ammo.

So take a load proven to be safe in my 223 Wylde. Here, we have proven that this particular load has not exhibited a hot batch of this brand and type of powder, and shows a good case/primer/powder/bullet combination and relationship regarding pressure. So, at this point would it not be safe to consider this to be like a factory round, and safe in most guns? Well, perhaps not, if the load is near max, and is going to be used in a tighter setup. But surely it would be safe in a looser setup.

However, I think in this case, for extra security I'll go with the "lower .5 grain and test" idea for the 556.

Thanks again, for all the replies,
Vettepilot

There is no problem working a load up to max or even beyond in some cases. Reloading manuals do not know every single variable any more than we do. That is why we work up, test, and the better than records you keep, the easier it gets over time You just have to be safe, and you have to have enough knowledge on your particular rifle on how it handles pressure. Thats something that nobody on this forum can predict without actually loading for your rifle.

 

[243winxb]

You do not want to see this. Internet photo.

 

[Kaldor]

You do not want to see this. View attachment 1089433 Internet photo.

Yup, those are bad. When you see those and bad ejector swipes, you are way hot. If your paying attention during test loads, you shouldnt have even gotten that far. Thats why I document everything with pictures, spreadsheets and notes to myself "Dont do that again stupid"

 

[Walkalong]

I load to pressure signs as well. In fact, and people will disagree with me,

With your experience, you can, but we are read by a lot of newbies..........

 

[Vettepilot555]

I certainly don't see loading test loads carefully, in small steps up to pressure signs as dangerous or ill-advised if you know what you are doing. If you are observant and fastidious along with using a chrono, there's lots of signs when you are getting too hot.

Suggesting that it's ok to load without being able to read pressure signs; that is dangerous! A supposedly "dead safe" midrange load could be high pressure with a hot batch of powder, a bad combination, poor loading techniques, etc., etc. If you can't recognize you are "at pressure" in that situation, then one more pressure increasing factor, like a hot day or something, could put you into unsafe territory. Ignorance is not bliss with reloading. I don't understand how one could effectively handload and work up loads at all without being able to recognize "pressure."

Getting and using pressure measuring equipment is a stupendous idea, and I would LOVE to do so. However, at 800 dollars plus for a Pressure Trace 2, it is FAR outside my budget.

Vettepilot

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I certainly don't see loading test loads carefully, in small steps up to pressure signs as dangerous or ill-advised if you know what you are doing. If you are observant and fastidious along with using a chrono, there's lots of signs when you are getting too hot.

Suggesting that it's ok to load without being able to read pressure signs; that is dangerous! A supposedly "dead safe" midrange load could be high pressure with a hot batch of powder, a bad combination, poor loading techniques, etc., etc. If you can't recognize you are "at pressure" in that situation, then one more pressure increasing factor, like a hot day or something, could put you into unsafe territory. Ignorance is not bliss with reloading. I don't understand how one could handload and work up loads at all without being able to recognize "pressure."

Getting and using pressure measuring equipment is a stupendous idea, and I would LOVE to do so. However, at 800 dollars plus for a Pressure Trace 2, it is FAR outside my budget.

Vettepilot

I’m going to guess here: the rifles in question cost closer to $1500 combined than $800 each. Am I right?
Just sayin’

 

[Vettepilot555]

Another example. A couple of years ago, I was out shooting some factory ammo, and as such did not set up a chrono. The first shot popped a primer! I thought WHOA!! After much thought, and examining the brass, gun, etc., I decided to chance one more round. I put a round and the gun in the air conditioning for a half hour, then shot again.

This time, the brass had a flattened and slightly mushroomed primer. I realized that it was a high pressure situation, even though it was factory ammo, and home we went with no further shooting.

The problem was factory ammo that was found to be pretty hot, a high ambient temperature, and a new gun with a tight chamber that needed to be addressed. I'm glad I could recognize "pressure."

Vettepilot