BASIC - RE-WORKING UP LOADS??

[Vettepilot555]

I’m going to guess here: the rifles in question cost closer to $1500 combined than $800 each. Am I right?
Just sayin’

I'm pretty surprised that you feel pressure trace equipment to be a necessity for working up a load. Thousands (millions?) of handloaders are doing it wrong.

Vettepilot

 

[Bfh_auto]

I load to pressure signs as well. In fact, and people will disagree with me, I start at the max book value and work backwards in various jumps based on total case capacity or level of testing desired. If I dont see pressure and the results Im looking for, Ill bump above book max a jump or two if I think its safe. Its probably not the best way to do things, but it does work. But I generally am shooting a Satterlee test and I am watching every single piece of brass that comes out of the gun and can see the pressure signs as they come on.

You dropping 2gr is a good place to start. Is it 100% necessary? I think it is if you are running at the top end of a load range, which if you are working to max, and then backing off a bit, you need to verify the new primer. Now the question of backing off 2gr? I dont think its completely necessary to go that far back. Example: Your CCI load is 24gr. The Fiochi load I would back off say .5gr and just check. However, if your load is far under book max, just swapping primers isnt going to blow up a gun. Example: Max is 25gr, but youre at 23.5gr for your load, swapping primers at that low of a powder charge isnt going to cause an issue. The only real change you might see is accuracy based. If your CCI load is lights out good, but you swap primers and it goes sideways, then a new workup is needed. This is a judgement call for you.

Temperature is a huge deal. You have to be careful with temp unstable powders. Look at a powder like CFE-223. Its awful in the heat. Ive gone from a perfectly safe load with no pressure signs at 60 degrees, to blowing primers at 80 degrees. Im not one for leaving ammo just sit in the heat, so its just that particular powder. Other ball powders can have this issue, but lets just say Ive had more issues with CFE-223 than any other. As a general rule though, load test at your hottest temp you will ever shoot that load at as its just a good safety margin.

Wylde vs. 5.56 chamber? The 5.56 chamber is looser and has a longer leade. You can see that in any SAAMI or reamer drawing. As a general rule, yes, the Wylde load will shoot from the 5.56 chamber without excessive pressure issue just due to the chamber itself. However, do not assume anything, and taking a few shots thru her gun and taking a peek for pressure signs is a good idea before loading up a full mag and going to town.

I think you are on the right track, and being safe rather than sorry is a good approach.

You wouldn't do that with my right chambered 22-250. It locks the bolt several grains below max. I can't even shoot factory ammo without pressure signs. But it gives 1/2 MOA from a bipod.
CFE223 is definitely every bit as sensitive as you stated. But it makes a great powder if you are willing to run a winter and summer load.

 

[Varminterror]

These two statements aren’t the same thing, so when stated as you originally did, well, you can appreciate that we’d call it out as bad, bad reloading practice.

I start at the max book value and work backwards

I use the max as a guide. I am not afraid of creeping up on a what would be considered a max charge.

The second statement is generally regarded as proper reloading process. Working up to determine the max, not starting at the max and working backwards.

I have a lot of pet loads which exceed book maximums, some loads which don’t even have books which could be referenced at all. But working UP is the key, and “starting at the max and working backwards” isn’t safe reloading practice.

 

[Kaldor]

You wouldn't do that with my right chambered 22-250. It locks the bolt several grains below max. I can't even shoot factory ammo without pressure signs. But it gives 1/2 MOA from a bipod.
CFE223 is definitely every bit as sensitive as you stated. But it makes a great powder if you are willing to run a winter and summer load.

Ive had nothing but bad luck with it. Once its gone, Ill never buy it again. But like its always said, your mileage may vary.

 

[Kaldor]

These two statements aren’t the same thing, so when stated as you originally did, well, you can appreciate that we’d call it out as bad, bad reloading practice.

The second statement is generally regarded as proper reloading process. Working up to determine the max, not starting at the max and working backwards.

I have a lot of pet loads which exceed book maximums, some loads which don’t even have books which could be referenced at all. But working UP is the key, and “starting at the max and working backwards” isn’t safe reloading practice.

Yup, I will admit, I worded that poorly. I didnt edit my post after re-reading and I can see how some might misconstrue that as me starting high, and working low, shooting the highest to lowest. I hate it when people stealth edit posts, so Ill take this one on the chin.

I always work to max or maybe a bit more. But I base my starting point on the max book charge, set my lowest charge, then work to there. Kinda like my example with the 6 Creed workup, going from 40-41.8 in .2gr jumps so I accurately track velocity nodes for a Satterlee test. I did base my starting point off the Hodgdon max charge, but pulled 2gr off of it to determine my 40gr start point so I can have a 10 round test. I too have a handful of stout pet loads that I will never publish, and only the guy looking at the notecard in my ammo can/box knows what the load really is, and those people are a very select group of friends.

 

[Walkalong]

In my experance CCI 400 primers show pressure early. At maybe 43,000 + PSI. A guess. The old Remington 7 1/2 dont.

Without pressure equipment, how do you know what pressure a certain primer “”shows” pressure?

You mentioned popping a primer first shot, well, that’s way over pressure.

Work up to an accurate load, using max data as a stopping point if you don’t get the accuracy you want. If the bullet/powder combo is a good one you will find it.

I’ll say it again, we’re read by a lot of people, many with little to no reloading knowledge, and suggesting that working up until you get pressure signs purposely is a bad practice and bad advice that goes against all normal accepted reloading advice.

Advanced reloading by very experienced reloaders? Sure, we have people here who can use certain book maxes as a guide and be safe, but they don’t purposely work up until they they are over pressure.

 

[243winxb]

Without pressure equipment, how do you know what pressure a certain primer “”shows” pressure?

Hodgdon data lists pressure for starting loads. Some powders have a 40/43,000 PSI at starting pressure. As the powder charge is increase, the primer flow will change. (IMR Powders.)

I noticed it mosly working up with 223 bullets in 68 & 69 gr range using CCI 400 primers. I stopped mid-range, when accuracy was good. Switching to Rem 7 1/2 showed no flow.

You mentioned popping a primer first shot, well, that’s way over pressure.

I blanked a primer in 357 mag with a Hodgdon max load of #9. Is this the one? First time for me. Caused by a hot batch of Hodgdon/Accurate #9 powder, IMO.

Data with a maximum load listed is not going to be in the Proof Load pressure range, if over pressue. But change any component in the data & reading pressure signs, is a must. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/high-pressure-signs.148/ (for new reloader)

I’ll say it again, we’re read by a lot of people, many with little to no reloading knowledge, and suggesting that working up until you get pressure signs purposely is a bad practice and bad advice that goes against all normal accepted reloading advice.

I agree. I never load over listed maximums. But some data, like in Speer #8 are to HOT at there maximums.

Accuracy first before velocity.

 

[Varminterror]

Hodgdon data lists pressure for starting loads. Some powders have a 40/43,000 PSI at starting pressure.

So then you know the pressure measured on the Hodgdon gear with their lot of components, and know not the actual pressure of your own components in your own chambers.

 

[243winxb]

know not the actual pressure of your own components in your own chambers.

No. Very few reloaders have or can afford pressure testing equipment. Do you?

But change any component in the data & reading pressure signs, is a must.

 

[murray brook]

No. Very few reloaders have or can afford pressure testing equipment.

So true. The same as velocity #'s back in the 80's. What a difference the modern chronograph has made. Too bad we couldn't have an affordable accurate pressure device.

 

[Vettepilot555]

So true. The same as velocity #'s back in the 80's. What a difference the modern chronograph has made. Too bad we couldn't have an affordable accurate pressure device.

Oh yes! If it were available for, say, around 300 bucks more or less, I would jump on pressure measuring equipment!! I was even attempting to talk myself into it when it was 500$. But then it jumped to an incredible, ridiculous 800 bucks! No way.

I am not advocating loading over max book charges, though doing so can often be safe. Sometimes however, you hit higher than desired pressures before even getting to max. If you don't know how to recognize high pressure signs, how in the hell would you know that has occurred?

Many, many handloaders test load up to signs of pressure, then back off, including many, if not most competition shooters. Why leave performance lying on the table?

If you don't load to pressure, you don't know where you stand. Your chosen load just might be only a hair's breadth away from high pressure, and any little thing could accidentally push you over that line.

I've been doing it for years, as have thousands of others, completely safely.

I think I'm likely done here. "Safety police" got me...

Vettepilot

 

[Vettepilot555]

How do you read pressure? Take a look at this picture from here on the site. LOTS of pressure signs apparently from a not very careful loader.

I would find it rare to find four clear and distinct high pressure signs from one careful increment of load increase as we see here. Likely a big powder load increase was used here, or else previous signs were ignored. And why so many rounds? One casing like this would have caused me to stop, go home, and review everything!!

Just my opinions guys...

Vettepilot

 

[murray brook]

I do exactly as you. When I work up a new load the first thing I want to establish is where is my safe max then I go from there. As you posted sometimes it is under book max and sometimes over. Depends on many things.

 

[Vettepilot555]

I think what "irks me" here are several things.

Insinuating that under max loads are always safe. That's not a good thing to teach newbies.

Insinuating that many reloaders might not be able to recognize "pressure", but that's ok if they stay under "max". Not good either... I think recognizing pressure signs is imperative to loading at all.

Stating that actually loading carefully up to the first signs of pressure is unsafe. Not true.

Let me be clear. When approaching max, or occasionally deciding to exceed it carefully somewhat, I only use .2 grain increases, even on larger cartridges. ( .1 grain in pistol cartridges.) I stop at the first sign of high pressure. Rather than considering myself unsafe, I actually consider myself somewhat "chicken"!

Vettepilot

 

[Walkalong]

t View attachment 1089551

That is some serious pressure right there, should have stopped well before that.....

 

[Vettepilot555]

That is some serious pressure right there, should have stopped well before that.....

Yes, I totally agree.

Vettepilot

 

[JFrank]

You do not want to see this. View attachment 1089433 Internet photo.

I’ve seen that before during load development coupled with a slight to heavy increase in bolt lift resistance, using that indication of pressure I stop’ / note that increment and consult the target, instinctively my rounds are losing accuracy but more than once my load was super’…

 

[Vettepilot555]

Yes, there can sometimes an accuracy node near a max pressure zone. Which is just another reason to have a look there. You might not choose to operate that hot/high, but if you're careful to avoid any factors that might increase the pressure further yet during use, you could. Of course, brass life will likely suffer some...

(Note that he is referring to the primer cratering in the pic he posted I believe; not the gross over-pressure displayed in the pic I posted further above.)

Vettepilot