Best airsoft...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm not trying to start an argument about airsoft.

What I am looking for is ideas on who makes the best most accurate airsoft AR15 and Glock (23 or 19 preferably) lookalikes. When I say accurate I mean mostly made of metal, high quality parts, battery or green gas/co2 blowback operated. Price is not really an issue. I'm not just "playing airsoft", I am looking to take part in some realistic force on force training using airsoft lookalikes that feel and act as close to real AR15s and Glocks as possible, and be able to take a serious beating, like the real deal. Cheap plastic spring operated toys from Dunhams are the opposite of what I'm looking for. I intend on using the sling, sling mount, optics, foregrip, lights etc from my real Bushmaster AR and Glock 19, as well as my SERPA holster for the Glock, for training with other soldiers and LEOS; and I want something that will hold up and do the job. Good accuracy in terms of rounds on target, and an FPS that is strong enough to punch a few holes and really let people know they've been hit, even through clothes would be a big plus too. Any suggestions on makers or models?

 

[Crash_Test_Dhimmi]

Not a firearm
IBTL

/Gawd I hate airsoft
//no offense

 

[mojo.bloke]

Tokyo Marui are the best and most copied airsoft in the industry. Will cost you almost as much as a real rifle or pistol in some cases as well.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Crash, that's probably because you're thinking of toy airsofts. When you use realistic airsoft guns in force on force training with other people who really know what they are doing, it becomes a highly useful training aide. But again, I'm not looking to start an argument between people who like or hate airsoft training. I am going to be participating in a lot of that kind of training with people from from my Army unit, and I want something that is appropriate for real training.

 

[Superlite27]

Will cost you almost as much as a real rifle or pistol in some cases as well.

!?

Waht is the point of paying THE SAME AMOUNT for an item that looks "almost like" a real item.

This would be like paying $25,000 for a 1969 Camaro.......but it has a plastic engine that LOOKS like a real engine.

Why not just buy a REAL 1969 Camaro since you can probably get a nice REAL one for the same price...and actually drive it?

Why pay the same for an airsoft gun that looks almost identical to a REAL gun, when you can just purchase the REAL gun....and actually shoot it?

Hmmmmm. This airsoft thing seems to be taking off like a rocket. They really saw you guys coming.

Think I'll go get me an airsoft beer out of the fridge.


For $10.99 a twelve pack, it looks just like a real beer.

(O.K., Ragnar points out training. I guess that is a pretty valid use for airsoft. My apologies for poking fun. What about simunitions, though? I don't know much about them, but aren't they supposed to be the cat's meow?)

 

[9mmepiphany]

they really are not toys.

there are LE agencies that are using them now instead of Submunitions and i know that DOE trainers have been buying them too.

for a handgun: KJW (propane)
for a longgun: Classic Army (electric)

both are made in Taiwan and match the weight of the real thing pretty closely...metal construction rather than plastic

 

[Sunray]

"...thinking of toy airsofts..." They're all toys.

 

[badbadtz560]

Most realistic ar15 - I believe western arms or classic army.. maybe G&G. Western arm's one of the few that use gas blowback, so the trigger and everything will feel more realistic. I have been out of the airsoft game for a while, but I do believe that others will be making GBB(gas blowback) ar15s very soon too.

most realistic g17 or g19 - KWA - Also gas blowback. Can be used w/ typical propane, but needs some silicone oil to lube it every few mags. It feels very much like a glock to me - including the trigger (though lighter pull).
I may have to go w/ 9mm on KJW. While KJW is known for leaky mags and ugly metal, KWA was sued for copying the glock models too closely and are no longer able to sell in the US I believe.

Tokyo maruis are the standard, but if you want a cheap alternative to metal w/o having to do modifications, there are typically better alternatives out there. that being said - if you're mechanically sound, I'd get tokyo marui and buy metal upgrade kits.

If you want accuracy, expect to have to spend more money on TN, systema, KM, prometheus brand precision inner barrels. They will not only give u more power, but also more accuracy. This also means you'll have to buy higher quality BBs. My preference was .25g.

I recommend www.airsoftgi.com or airsoftatlanta. I have been out of the airsoft game for a while though, so I could be few years outdated.

 

[mojo.bloke]

The point of cost when training "Realistically" will be upgrades to give you a realistic distance between competitors in your given scenario. Do you want to train at 15 ft or 100 ft. Of course there is simunition that the real Forces use in real weapons but that is not available to you or me!!!

 

[9mmepiphany]

Why pay the same for an airsoft gun that looks almost identical to a REAL gun, when you can just purchase the REAL gun....and actually shoot it?

it's not about almost identical. except for the markings and the orange tip, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. i use all my duty gear with my KJW Sig 226 (i paid $106) for training.

the advantage of airsoft is the ability to go FOF without the expense and liability problems of other avenues.

with the simple addition of eye protection, we practice building clearing...it does require that everyone involved works on the honor system

i was able to restrain myself from buying the SAW...but it was way cool and was only about $600

 

[gym]

I saw one of those air-soft, things at the gun show, and thought it was a real shotgun. I asked , "as I always do" if I might pick it up. Only after that did I realize that it was a plastic copy of a tac shotgun. I felt that there were a hundred good reasons why they should not allow copies of real guns, maybe that's just me.

 

[gyvel]

:

This would be like paying $25,000 for a 1969 Camaro.......but it has a plastic engine that LOOKS like a real engine.

But...Wouldn't the REAL 1969 Camaro be all rusted out?

 

[Justin]

Go with the electrically powered guns. In my experience the gas powered guns are sub-optimal, especially when shooting rapid-fire.

FWIW, a lot of people are using airsoft as a training aid, and not just in law enforcement. Front Sight Magazine, the official magazine for USPSA has had articles about using them as a low-cost training aid to supplement dry-fire practice.

Frankly, so long as this discussion stays in the realm of serious training, I have no problem with leaving the thread open.

 

[badbadtz560]

GBB m4
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?q=m4+gas&x=0&y=0&manufacturer=362

metal g19
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/ksc-g19-gbb-pistol-metal-slide-version.html

kwa m4
http://www.airsoftgi.com/index.php?cPath=139_24_202

I forgot to mention that KWA was a new name in the metal AEG world when I stopped playin. It may be one of the highest quality ones from reviews back then.. but once again things could have changed.

I'll recommend KWA for one-stop shopping for both your glock and m4 need.

 

[mustang_steve]

For end all be all accuracy in cosmetics/weight/feel Systema makes an M4 replica that's just incredible. It is electric though.

For a Glock, good luck, Glock sued the pants off of most of the airsofters who duplicated their designs. Used market is your best bet, or to somehow get a tokyo Marui brought stateside (but it will probably have the trademarks filed off for import legality reasons). TMs tend to be plastic, but far from junk. They're the standard for reliability in airsoft, especially when left stock. But be ready to pay for them too, they are NOT cheap.

 

[LowEx]

I understand how Airsoft can be used for force on force training in a building. The Duration of encounters is very short term, so the magazine capacity of several hundred BBs doesn't mean too much. Also, you're not too likely to miss anyways, so the ability to hose a target or area with fully automatic fire from just about any weapon isn't a huge factor. You also treat pretty much every item in a building as 'cover' and don't make the distinction between cover and concealment.

How exactly does all of the above end up working on the open field? Or does it not at all? I can't help but immagine that the above would have a tendency to alter tactics from reality, especially with a military unit, where high volume of fire comes from specific soldiers, not everyone.

Not trying to be sarcastic, I understand it works well enough for indoors. I just am having a hard time seeing the realism come into play in an outdoors format. Anyone with experience have any input on downfalls, or maybe rules to enforce the realism side of things?

 

[gondorian]

^LowEx^ Small capacity magazines, i.e. the amount the real steal version would have, are available for most higher end m4's and probably a lot of other guns too. Inside a house sized building you are not very likely to miss with a good airsoft gun and so it can be pretty realistic indoors. As for rate of fire, oftentimes games are restricted to semi-auto only, which takes care of the problem. The only major downside when playing indoors is cover vs. concealment. This will always be present when airsofting b/c it takes a lot less to stop an airsoft bb than a bullet.

Outdoors I would say the major limitation of airsoft is range, and it can lead to unrealistic tactics quite easily. Oftentimes you will just be able to run past your opponents in plain sight at 100 yds and they can't do anything. If you are practicing for outdoor rifle combat I would count this as a major limitation, but it is present with all projectile based simulation systems. Any projectile that can reach 100yds plus accurately will probably start having skin penetration issues and will definitely cause major hurt.

I think of serious airsoft as ok for people wanting to have a training type scenario indoors, but when I play outdoors I don't think of myself as practicing my (nonexistent) combat skills but rather engaging in a fun pastime.


To the OP. As for guns, I would recommend an upgraded Classic Army m4 as pretty near the minimum gun for serious play. Marui is good too, and it is pretty much the gold standard of airsoft, but they are more expensive. Tightbore barrels also help a lot with the accuracy of rifles, and if you want an the most accuracy possible out of the AR platform I would consider an m16 with a tightbore barrel, but if you must have an m4 this won't work. Airsoft Atlanta is a good site, they have great customer service and don't carry much junk, but they don't always have the cheapest prices.

 

[mustang_steve]

for long range outdoor, paint guns would be a better option (real firearm designed to fire a special round with a paint-filled projectile). Airsoft is bet for 30yds or closer distances. 100yd is an insane distance for this tech...

Keep in mind there's less than 1 joule of energy in the average sport grade airsoft rifle. Only spring "snipers" and heavily modified guns get to that point....the spring guns sometimes breaking 2j of energy. Still at those energy levels, you still do not have enough power now inertia (due to low ammo weight) to have enough power to keep it moving the whole distance. The less energy left in the projectile, the lower inertia, the lower inertia means the more likely other forces can veer the projectile...thus lower accuracy.

then we have the effect of the "hop up" which is a rubber nib designed to impart backspin to the BB....it's airsoft's version of rifling, since an actual rifling style rotational direction is not very useful at these velocities, not ot mention hard to implement at such low levels of energy. Hop up makes the projectile rise as it travels from the gun, then after peaking it will drop. This is adjustable on many of the guns. My old rifle had an external lever I touched up depending on range of target. At this point though I think I've veered way off topic for this thread.

Either way, airsoft is close range for the most part.

 

[il_10]

^ 30 yards is seriously underestimating the capability of these systems. 1j is the energy cap in England, but there is not currently any restriction in the states. With a .20 g projectile, 1j is around 328 fps; with the recent revolution in high quality electric rifle systems coming out of China, industry standard for a stock electric rifle has switched from around 280 fps (from Marui's glory days) to around 400 fps stock. 400 fps is pretty hot for close quarters, but it beats 1j in an electric gun that can be had with full metal, real wood, select fire, all the bells and whistles for around $130. Check out the echo1 and vector arms distribution lines. High end equipment comes at a low power rating because experienced shooters tend to know how to upgrade, mid-range stuff tends to be better optimized for most players. High-end spring sniper rifles can absolutely be upgraded to 100 yard performance, and 550-600 fps ratings (with .20g) are not uncommon, though heavier ammunition is used to keep that inertia and accuracy; noone is sniping using .20g bb weights, you usually see .38g+ on the field.
OP - That having been said, I'm a big shooter on both sides of this issue. I've been playing airsoft for about 6 years now, and I've been shooting real arms for much longer. The best bet for an ar-15 is Classic Army, and if you're going to be shooting (for airsoft) intermediate ranges as opposed to CQB, you're going to want at least an m120 spring and a tightbore barrel. It's also advised that you check into upgraded hopup systems. The CA's bodies are full metal, and the furniture is the most realistic in the industry. Be absolutely sure that if you're buying an armalite, you get one with a full metal body. The delta ring is a weak point in these replicas, and with a plastic body you'll get barrel wobble that will drive you crazy.
Glocks are tougher now, Glock is in full swing on suits to most of the major importers so new imports are few and far between. KWA/KSC are the industry standard for Glocks, but you're going to have a hard time finding a new one.

Airsoft can certainly be an effective training tool; the handling, controls, magazines, form, and in some cases function are extremely similar, and airsoft allows live fire training with a level of safety that neither simunition nor paintball can tout. With hopup, standard in even the low-end equipment, bbs shoot flat and straight until they're almost completely out of energy; you shoot straight down the sights and that's where you're bb is going, paintball doesn't even come close to this except with (arguably) the extremely finicky flatline barrels. There is nothing wrong with a few more hours every couple of weeks practicing handling and maneuvering with a replica of a weapon you own; even if the tactics and cover don't work the same outside of cqb, mag-changes and shouldering times can't help but benefit at the very least. It's not a bad way to test out gear, mag carry options, sling options, boots, clothes, etc. either. I've had plenty of new "fancy," expensive tactical gear that seemed like a great idea turn to garbage pretty quick when I actually got in the field and tried using and maneuvering in it. It's nice to know what works and optimize your setup when you're not getting shot at with real bullets.

 

[gondorian]

Welcome to The High Road il 10

+1 on echo1 they are good guns too I just forgot about them.

 

[mustang_steve]

I had an Echo-1...the thing to keep in mind with them is they have horrible retention in value. Spend $180 on a top-end model, and it's worth $50 if you sell it a week later, if that. Most shops won't even buy them back. Great guns, just buy one if you are going to use it.

Echo-1 is Jing Gong (aka JG or Golden Bow) with a warranty. I'm serious, there are a few models that are different, but the bulk of their stuff is rebadged JG gear.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Why pay the same for an airsoft gun that looks almost identical to a REAL gun, when you can just purchase the REAL gun....and actually shoot it?

Because you can't shoot your buddy with an AR-15 and say "good game"?

Maybe that? Maybe?

 

[AZAviator]

First thing is, airsoft is deffinately NOT a toy. You can get some airsofts that with make a big man cry pretty fast. That being said, I do not airsoft anymore.

I had a KWA Glock 19 for a long time. It was a very accurate representation of the real gun (you could do a full field strip) - and also had gas blow back. When I bought it I think it was around $150 and recently I sold it for about half that.

 

[Mandolin]

Toys don't give you blood blisters under your fingernail and make you drop your gun when they hit you. Personal experiance.

 

[testosterone]

I bought a tokyo marui 1911 from an airsoft shop in NYC.

It took almost 8 weeks to get it, but was definitely worth it, it is a high quality replica that works perfectly.

Difficult because technically it is 134a gun. I have been filling with propane and it works OK, but the dealer told me it will break down sooner.

Getting 134a gas in my experience is nearly impossible, but I could be "doing it wrong". The only dealers that seem to carry it on the web are all non-us which makes it expensive....