Best caliber for Crystal Meth Zombies?!

[c_yeager]

I think that SOME of the effects that are spoken of in regard to Crystal Meth are a little overhyped. Yes, everything you hear about how bad it messes a person up is true. I have seen the scabbies, people with no teeth and horrible sores everywhere. Of course I have also seen heroin users in the exact same condition. I think is a result of the generally unhygenic conditions that drug users put themselves in more than an outright effect of the drug.

As far as the increased violence, sexual tendancies, etc. That is also true. I think that essentially meth makes people unable to consider consequences and it seems to make people significantly stupider (and we arent talking about folks that started out as rocket scientists either).

As far as the drug turning people into killing machines with super-human strength that has not been my experience. They don't seem to be stronger than any other person, the difference is that they don't have the cognative ability to understand when they should stop fighting. So, they will just keep on going untill they are stopped. As far as noticing pain or not it seems to vary. Some of them seem almost hypersensative to pain (they will whine and cry at the drop of a hat, but it still doesnt encourage much compliance) while others don't even seem to notice.

Remember that there was a long time when amphetimines where WIDELY abused in the medical field due to the high stress and long hours of the job. The fact that med students could manage to take this drug and still keep it together enough to get through Med School would indicate that users do not always exhibit such outrageous behavior. (it also means that you can't spot one on sight so be carefull). I think that with any drug the effects of it have a LOT to do with the personality and normal behavior of the person taking it. If someone is a violent jerk ON meth they are probably a violent jerk off meth too but, likely have enough sense to curtail that behavior now and then.

 

[LiquidTension]

12ga. .45 will do in a pinch.

I've seen the movie Spun that was mentioned earlier. If that's what meth does to people, I'm glad none of my friends do it Although the scene where Mena Suvari takes a crap is funny.

 

[LawDog]

The really scary part isn't so much the high-speed disassembly of a complete residential structure, it's what you get as a by-product on the downwind side of the explosion: whiffs of phosphene and phosgene gas, clouds of anhydrous ammonia, muriatic and sulphuric acid and worse.

If the meth cook has become a crispy-critter, you just kind of chalk it up to the risks of the profession. Unfortunately, when the meth lab goes up in a forty-foot ball of fire, Grandma Frickert wobbles out on the front porch to see what's going on down the street, and gets a snoot full of toluene fumes.

LawDog

 

[cracked butt]

whiffs of phosphene and phosgene gas, clouds of anhydrous ammonia, muriatic and sulphuric acid and worse.

A little of any of those or toluene isn't going to hurt anything. The amounts used are in small enough portions not to kill the kitchen chemists in a closed environment aren't going to hurt anyone in an open and highly diluted environment.
I'd be much more concerned about others who live in adjoining apartments/condos being killed in explosions, or the environmental impacts of the crap being poured down the drain. Acids will quickly eat through soil pipes, allowing the rest of the garbage to seep into the ground.

What most people consider as terrible poisons or acids are to me fairly benign in my day to day work.

 

[Brian Williams]

Give them a .577 Tyrannasaur.
Meth is just down right nasty.

 

[LawDog]

The amounts used are in small enough portions not to kill the kitchen chemists in a closed environment aren't going to hurt anyone in an open and highly diluted environment.

They do kill or seriously injure the chemists on a fairly regular basis.

Also, the various nasty gases: phosphene, phosgene, cyanide, etc., are produced as the result of an oopsie. The recipe says do this, and this, and this to get meth. The cook does this, and this, and then somebody joggles his arm and he winds up with a cloud of hydrogen cyanide drifting downwind.

What most people consider as terrible poisons or acids are to me fairly benign in my day to day work.

I'm happy for you. Personally I don't want any member of my family, and particularly not the infants and the elderly, anywhere near phosphene gas. Not to mention phosgene and cyanide.

LawDog

 

[cracked butt]

I'm happy for you. Personally I don't want any member of my family, and particularly not the infants and the elderly, anywhere near phosphene gas. Not to mention phosgene and cyanide.

I wouldn't move anywhere near a University then. Their chemistry departments emit all of those listed plus thousands of other compounds into the air every day. Driving a brand new car is probably even worse for you, the plastics in the car leach out a class of chemicals known as pthalates, which closely mimic the hormones in your body, if you put your lunch in a sandwich bag, you are getting a dose of them as well, not to mention the soft plastic toys that kids play with. Your drinking water is contaminated with prescription drugs that people urinate out into the environment- blood pressure drugs, chemotherapy drugs, birth control hormones, and most prevalent, antidepressants. Your food is loaded with chemical preservatives, sugar substitutes, man made fats, hydrogentated fats. You might even live in an older house that has lead paint, a substance that is proven to casue serious health problems. If you repaint your house or stain some woodwork, you are being exposed to fairly high levels of alcohols and other solvent carriers, then you go and clean your brushes in acetone, mineral spirits, or worst of all, paint thinner which contains chlorinated solvents which ARE very harmful to you.

They do kill or seriously injure the chemists on a fairly regular basis.

Usually the sloppy, uneducated, or careless ones- I've seen it happen.
I used to work with Borane chemistry which can produce highly toxic and/or explosive gasses and compounds, it was never a problem, in fact several dozen chemists did such work at that company at that time. We had one careless idiot that didn't respect what he was working with and completely blew a lab apart. Despite the fact that there were 150 personnel on the 2 acre site at the time it happened, only the person who caused the explosion was hurt.
The same company at a different site- downtown Milwaukee- has a large emmission of Phosgene gas, the wind was in such a direction that all they had to do was shutdown the freeway that ran past it, and the stuff dispersed quick enough that noone was injured from the event.

I currently work with Ozone chemistry- this stuff is about as nearly as toxic as it gets, yet the chemistry involved produces no toxic byproducts unlike the chemistry it replaces which uses Lead and Osmium compounds. 10 ppm is a toxic concentration in the air, yet with training and careful selection of chemists who work on the processes, there is little danger, and there is none that is emitted into the environment. Very few companies in the USA use this technology because they are afraid of it.

I'm just trying to dispell some myths about chemistry. Some yahoo mixing chemicals in their kitchen or garage isn't likey to hurt anyone but themselves, and the immediate environment around them. If they have an explosion or a spill it will not become the equivalent to a Bhopal India incident. The only chemical incidents where there really is concern about the neighbors is when an incident involves railroad tanker car, a tanker truck, or a chemical plant, and even then it depends on the chemicals involved.

Simply smelling some fumes from a disrupted lab down the street isn't going to be any worse than the fumes created when cleaning one's bathroom.

 

[Marshall]

I have a friend that got on it, he was married with 3 children and a successful phamacutical salesman, made 150K a year. His wife called me and ask that I come over and help her, he had taken apart the funace in the attick because he thought someone had placed bugs and recording devices in it. This was in the winter, they had no heat. He would go into the attick with his .45 because he was convinced people were there. I got there and he had all of his computers taken down to board level and had been examining them for tampering. He was also convinced that his barrel in his .45 Gold Cup had been swapped out somehow with a cheaper barrel and someone had been into his guns. It was the saddest thing I have seen. Luckily we got him help and he is doing great today.

Point being, yes it happens in the rural areas with the less fortunate mostly but, in this case it nailed a white collar familiy man in a very nice part of town. The stuff doesn't discriminate.

 

[41mag]

I started reading this thread & a smart alek quip or two came to mind.
The more I read though,the more disturbed I've gotten.

OTOH,I've now added another question or two for the local PD in the juristictions down South where I'm looking to move to.I suppose I'm thankful for that @ least.

 

[Jeff White]

Here's an article on what can happen even when the small amout of dangerous chemicals used to cook meth blows up:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...E3D6DE23292806CC86256FBC004D035D?OpenDocument

Man who looked for "easy money" in meth finds tragedy
By JOAN ELLIOTT
Washington Missourian
03/06/2005

St. Clair resident
lost his sight
in explosion

The world went dark for Michael Murphy Feb. 1, a day he will likely relive with horror for the rest of his life.

It started out like just any other day of his life - partying, getting high and making a couple of bucks by cooking meth with his "friends." But the day ended with Murphy's life hanging by a thread after a tank of anhydrous ammonia blew up in his face, leaving him blind in both eyes, deaf in one ear and with chemical burns and bits of shrapnel in and on his body.

Words, sobs and tears intermingled as the rural St. Clair man spoke from his heart in a recent interview. His slender body was slumped in an oversized chair where he now lives with his mother and stepfather, making him look even younger than his 23 years. His head was lowered and he wore a baseball cap pulled down, covering much of his face.

"I'll never see my daughter or my five nieces or my parents again," he said through barely muffled sobs. "I can't get something to eat or drink without asking somebody. This is hard to deal with. One day I could see things plain as day, then I woke up three days later in the hospital and - nothing!

"I don't understand how I survived, but I think the Lord saved me," Murphy said. "Now if I can help save someone else's life, help them see what I'm going through and what my family is going through, that's what I'll do."

Murphy did relatively well in school, playing trumpet in the junior high band and football his freshman year at St. Clair High School.

He said things began taking a turn for the worse when he didn't make the baseball team his sophomore year, then didn't make the high school band.

He started hanging around with the wrong crowd, partying and eventually trying drugs. "I wanted to be like everyone else and try it out," he said. "Once you've tried it, especially meth, it's all over. It's almost impossible to get out of the habit of doing it.

"That's when I quit caring about school. My grades dropped and I just wanted to play and have fun." He quit school his junior year.

Murphy eventually moved to the Lake of the Ozarks in hopes of getting his life back together by distancing himself from everyone he knew who did drugs.

But he was unable to run away from himself.

"At first, I was doing good, but then I met people in bars who were ..." He stumbled over his words. "Well, we hooked up and next thing I knew, I was wrapped up with the same kind of people there."

But Murphy met a woman in early 2003 and got married. Their daughter was born five months ago. They named her Nevaeh - heaven spelled backward. The girl is now in the temporary custody of Murphy's brother and sister-in-law.

About a year ago, Murphy went into treatment in Camdenton to try and kick his addiction. As soon as he got out, he started again. After a second failed treatment attempt, he returned to St. Clair, near Washington, Mo.

"I fell right back in with the wrong crowd, but this time I really fell deep in - drinking and snorting meth," he said. "My family and people who cared about me tried to get me to stop. I kept telling them I was all right and to leave me alone. Now I wish I had listened to them."

Then came the events of Feb. 1.

"I heard the boom and remember waking up on the floor," Murphy said. "I couldn't breathe ... or yell ... or anything. I thought I was going to die, right then. Someone pulled me out, but I couldn't hear
anything."

Murphy recalled taking a shower, but it was likely that he was remembering that a piece of flying shrapnel broke a water pipe above his head and the water spewed over him, a coincidence that probably saved his life as it washed chemicals off his body.

Someone took Murphy to a firehouse, saying he was having a seizure. He was taken by helicopter to St. John's Mercy Medical Center in Creve Coeur.

Murphy had skin from his leg grafted onto his left arm, which received third-degree chemical burns. Much of his face received first-degree chemical burns, although most of that has healed.

Murphy has had three surgeries on his eyes. Transplants were put in with lenses over them to keep the transplants in place. Then his eyes were sewn shut so nothing can get in while they heal. His family said there is a slight chance he could recover some sight in one eye. He will face additional surgeries.

Murphy admitted that if he was burned but hadn't lost his sight, he probably would have kept on using meth.

"It had to take something like this before I got it," he said. "Now I know my family comes first.

"I thought it was easy money and a fun thing to do, but look at me now."

cracked butt said;

I'm just trying to dispell some myths about chemistry. Some yahoo mixing chemicals in their kitchen or garage isn't likey to hurt anyone but themselves, and the immediate environment around them. If they have an explosion or a spill it will not become the equivalent to a Bhopal India incident. The only chemical incidents where there really is concern about the neighbors is when an incident involves railroad tanker car, a tanker truck, or a chemical plant, and even then it depends on the chemicals involved.

There is a big difference between using these chemicals with proper lab equipment and using them with the improvised equipment normally found in a meth lab. Around here anhydorus is stolen from the tanks in the fields in everything from plastic gasoline cans to modified LP gas bottles like you use on the BBQ grill. These bottles are not made to stand up to the corrosive effects of the anhydrous ammonia and they do explode after being used for a while, just as illustrated in this article. You can tell if a bottle has been modified to store anhydros because the fitting has been replaced and it's usually corroded a bulish-green color.

Anhydrous ammonia is bad stuff. I personally know three officers who have been hospitalized, two of them with permanent lung damage after making traffic stops on rolling meth labs and getting burned with anhydrous because these tweakers handle the chemicals so safely.

Meth users are the most confrontational of all the drug users I've ever encountered. I've participated in the arrest of numerous people for marijuana (including the transportation of large amounts), crack, powder cocaine (again including the transportation of large amounts), heroin, LSD....out of all of them, it's the meth user that is most like to fight or flee or both.

Here is the first 7 days in March's worth of local news concerning meth from the local radio station's website:

http://www.wjbdradio.com/
3/7/05 Two Arrested on Meth Charges After Allegedly Attempting to Flee Police
Centralia Police arrested two people on methampethamine related charges after stopping a fleeing car Sunday morning.

The driver, 42-year-old John Shaw of Hester Street in Centralia, is being held for aggravated fleeing, driving on a revoked license, illegal transportation of anhydrous ammonia and possession of meth making chemicals.

26-year-old Amanda Hunt of South 25th in Mt. Vernon was arrested for illegal transportation of anhydrous ammonia and possession of meth making materials.

Shaw told Centralia Police the anhydrous ammonia was being taken to a home where methamphetamine was going to be made.

3/5/05 Driving of Car with Alleged Rolling Meth Lab Crashes into State Police Car
A suspect whose vehicle contained an alleged meth lab was able to escape on foot Friday night after backing his car into a State Police car in the Bluford area. State Police say the incident occurred on Marcum Lane south of Sunswept Road.

The car was initially being stopped for a lighting violation. The driver reportedly stopped, and then backed into the squad car before fleeing. The passenger compartment of the car then erupted into flames. The trooper was unsuccessful in putting out the fire. Bluford firemen were called to the scene.

A search for the driver of the vehicle was continuing Saturday morning.

3/4/05 Centralia Man Receives Four Years in Prison for Possession of Meth Making Chemicals

A Centralia man has pleaded guilty in Clinton County Court to possession of methamphetamine manufacturing chemicals. Dennis Schuchmann was sentenced to four years in prison to run consecutively with a sentence handed down earlier in Marion County.

As part of the plea, an aggravated battery charge was dismissed. Schuchmann faced that charge in connection with an incident where the vehicle he was driving allegedly struck Clinton County Probation Officer Carla Stalnacher. Stalnacher was trying to prevent Amy Meyer of Centralia from fleeing at the time. Meyer had left the probation office while waiting for a court mandated drug test.

Schuchmann was arrested on the meth manufacturing chemicals charge following a November traffic stop in Centralia.

3/1/05 Four Face New Meth Charges in Marion County Court Four people face new methampethamine charges.

26-year-old Stewart Stumbaugh of South Perrine in Centralia had bond set at $25,0000 on charges of possession of methampethamine and aggravated battery.

Marion County prosecutors say Stumbaugh became angry with Danielle Meyers after she complained that he needed to stop using meth because they were soon to be parents. After escaping to the front porch of the home, Stumbaugh is accused of grabbing Meyers by the hair and beating her in the face with his hand and later a brick.

Centralia Police say Stumbaugh was attempting to finish cooking meth in a microwave oven when the altercation began.

28-year-old Billy Cameron of Gilliland Road in Walnut Hill had bond set at $15,000 on charges of possession of meth and resisting a peace officer. Prosecutors say Centralia police questioned Cameron after spotting him knocking on doors at a motel.

He allegedly handed police a canister he had in his hand and ran. Police were successful in chasing Cameron down. The canister allegedly possessed methamphetamine.

Two others were charged with unlawful possession with intent to manufacture a controlled substance. 43-year-old Michael Tolliver of South Franklin in Salem and 30-year-old Michael Hawkins of Route 161 East of Centralia were arrested after a car outside Hawkins home was allegedly found to contain finished meth as well as meth making materials.

Bond for Tolliver was set at $50,000. Bond for Hawkins was set at $75,000.

One common thread through these contacts is that there are almost always assault charges filed along with the meth charges. Meth users are violent and paranoid. In my experience they are the most likely of any drug user to injure or kill someone.

Jeff

 

[Jeff White]

A couple weeks ago I had a local tweaker who lives next to some property I own near the state park show up in my driveway with a garbage bag full of the remnants of a meth lab. He was wanting me to help him dispose of it because someone was cooking meth on his and my property. He knew this because he watched them through his night vision equipment. In reality he was cleaning up because he was worried about another search warrant being served and somehow got the idea that turning the remnants in to a police officer would somehow clear him. I ran him off, told him that he wasn't to be on any of my property and called the sheriff's office to try to get a deputy to catch him with the remnants of the lab.

A couple days later, this happened:

2/26/05 Possible Stabbing Near Kinmundy Under Investigation
A 25-year-old former Centralia man has been air lifted to Barnes Hospital in St. Louis in critical condition after being injured in a wooded area near Williams and Kinmundy Roads in rural Kinmundy. Marion County Sheriff's Deputies say Troy Donald---who has most recently lived in Texas---was picked up by a passerby who found him walking along the road covered by blood.

Donald told the woman he fell on something in the woods, but police said Donald's injuries appear to be from a stab wound. The State Crime Scene Technicians were called and a police canine tracked a trail through the wooded area to a home.

No arrests have been made and no other details are currently available.

3/1/05 Arrest Made in Connection with Stabbing in Rural Kinmundy
State Police have made an arrest in connection with a weekend stabbing.

36-year-old Terry Witt of Omega Road was expected to be formally charged Tuesdayin Marion County Court with aggravated battery. He's accused of stabbing 25-year-old Troy Donald with a knife last Friday.

Donald, who is originally from the Centralia area who had been living more recently in Texas, was transferred to a St. Louis Hospital in critical condition. However, his condition was later upgraded.

Donald was found covered in blood walking near Williams and Kinmundy Roads in rural Kinmundy by a passing motorist. Donald told the driver he had fallen on something in a wooded area. However, State Police at the time said the wound was consistent with a stabbing.

No other details are yet available on what led State Police to arrest Witt.

3/2/05 Rural Kinmundy Man Formally Charged in Connection with Weekend Stabbing

Bond has been set at a half-million dollars for a 36-year-old rural Kinmundy man formally charged in Marion County Court Tuesday with aggravated battery. Terry Witt of Omega Road is accused of stabbing Troy Donald formerly of Centralia in the chest with a knife Friday afternoon.

State's Attorney Matt Wilzbach says the investigation is continuing into a motive. He reports the stabbing is believed to have occurred near Witt's home. At this time the weapon has not been located.

Donald was last reported in serious but stable condition at a St. Louis Hospital. He was covered with blood when picked up by a passing motorist.

While Donald initially claimed to have fallen on something in a wooded area near the Williams and Kinmundy Roads, Wilzbach says he eventually provided the information that Witt had committed the stabbing.

You can't predict these people. Terry Witt was in my driveway trying to turn in the remnants of a meth lab to a police officer one day and stabbing an associate a couple days later.

Jeff

 

[Itote]

Round here everybody calls it Crank. You'll find the dirt broke poor to the $1000 a week contractor doin it. And yes, you'll find guys around here makin alot of money doin it. It's cheap, say $90 or $100 a gram. When someone first starts out, a gram or g will usually last them for maybe a week. You know, party for the weekend then sleep sunday and ready to go back to work on monday. This will last for a while, then they suddenly realize it takes more to keep them goin. So instead of buyin a g, they gotta get a 16th, or 1.75 grams. Mr. Dealer is lookin out for his best interest so he sells them a 16th for about $125-$130 or so. Before long that 16th aint lastin but a day or so, especially when there newly aquired friends (whom they met either thru their dealer or at Wal-Mart on one of their 2am geek trips) are helpin them smoke it. I say smoke because at this stage they still get high like that, not for long though. All of a sudden Mr. User or "Chickenhead" will realize that he cant afford to keep payin all this money so he decides to start buyin a eightball or ball. He can get a ball (3.5 grams) for say $150 from his dealer because he is a good customer. He then sells enough at $10 for 10 ($10 for 1/10th of a gram) to his new buddies that he can pay his debt,and still have plenty to party with. his works out good for our Hero for a few months. Did I forget to mention that buy this time he/she has all but give up on any type of gainful employment..See, after a while it takes more and more to keep goin and those little naps on sunday are a thing of the past, our Hero is absolutely afraid of comin down or Crashin. So he/she just smokes and smokes and smokes until he cant get where he needs to be, then if he's lucky he'll try eatin some. It works for a while by eating it, or Popin a Scooby Snack. If he's not lucky, them some poor halfless soul talked him into Shooting Up or Bangin it. The difference of effect between smoking and Banging is like the difference between a .22 and a .45. So all of a sudden,our friend has found a neat new way to get super high with less dope. What he dont know is there aint no coming back with out intervention. Once he shoots, it's a done deal.
Mr. Dealer knows this too, so he stops frontin our boy any dope knowing full well that his little Chickenhead addict will do anything to get his fix. I mean ANYTHING. If our hero is a female, well you can guess what she has to trade. Yep, you guessed it.Least till the dope wears her out and she starts lookin like hell from lack of eating(did I mention that crank completely erases your appetite) lack of sleep and the overall effects of pumpin an alkaloid into her body all the time. The dealer aint gonna wanna sleep with her nomore, heck he has plenty of fresh new faces to look at. So off she goes to make money any way she can. If our hero is a guy, most times he turns to theft. Sometimes, he turns to violence. Male or female, one thing they have in common is that they are in hell, and cant see a way out. Very often a couple will get in it together and it has no mercy on love or family. After a while there kids dont matter anymore. Crank is so addictive because when you first start doin it,it's fun. It's not a high like from pot or pills, its like your wide awake and feel like you could take on anything. That feelin dont last long either.
Trust me on this!

TO ANSWER THE ORIGINAL POST- High not Superman,9mm will work but 12ga is better.

 

[sm]

Others have described better than I, Are involved daily with these folks.

I'm 6' 173# . Had a 14 y/o girl , high as kite- maybe 80# sopping wet come at me, Security asked me "detain her', she had broken their hold and headed for the door. She took me out the door with her, I held on for dear life Until 4 security guys showed up. Finally dawned on me to just keep rolling down the slope...Security can come to me, forget bringing her to them...kept her from getting "leverage"...

Forget Rodeo, train wreck comes to mind...

My choice: head shots.
1 oz slugs from a 12 ga.
170 grainers from a 30-30.

Not gonna rule out a Suburban with a heavy brush guard either...

 

[HI express]

Related experience

Possenti,
In my younger days I was assigned to work on a Task Force even though I am not an LEO.
Long story short...I was called out on a weekend. Turned out some guys were cooking up some meth in a unit that was well hidden.
Officers had the place surrounded and were ready to go in after the guys, when someone in there was carrying a pan of meth just processed to the bathroom. Somehow, a fire started and caused the little hallway to the bathroom to be consumed in a ball of an extemely hot fire. This hallway also led to the rear door.
The fire was so hot that the smoke detector (plastic) on a 8 feet ceiling turned into liquid plastic in a second. The fire caught the BG's face, chest, hair, and arms in a balll of flame.
The other guy who was 12 feet away, got his lungs seared.
For some unknown reason, the first guy still held the pan of burning meth and walked to the bathroom and tried to chuck the burning mess out the window. It hit the window frame and fell onto his feet...burning his "privates" badly.
I talked to the paramedics who were on standby after they had put both guys on the gurney.
"How's it look?" I asked.
"Good news? He survived the fire with 80% burn on his body."
"Bad news? He survived the fire."

I got to standby and explain to the property owners how to clean up the residue off of the walls and floor. Gloves and masks...all disposables with the HazMat guys supervising. You can get loaded from skin contact on the walls.
Stay safe, folks.

 

[DesertRat]

Remember that there was a long time when amphetimines where WIDELY abused in the medical field due to the high stress and long hours of the job. The fact that med students could manage to take this drug and still keep it together enough to get through Med School would indicate that users do not always exhibit such outrageous behavior. (it also means that you can't spot one on sight so be carefull). I think that with any drug the effects of it have a LOT to do with the personality and normal behavior of the person taking it. If someone is a violent jerk ON meth they are probably a violent jerk off meth too but, likely have enough sense to curtail that behavior now and then.

Well, C Yeager, you can't compare pharmaceutical grade Amphetamines used by Med students with the Crystal Meth cooked using either the Nazi method or the Red-P method. These are two totally separate animals. Yes, there are great variations in behavior among various Tweakers, but if you do tick'em off they will go Ape-Sh*t. I'm not sure what they're doing up there in Seattle, but the Tweakers down here are ALWAYS paranoid and often become violent with the slightest provocation (actual or perceived). We ALWAYS find weapons on these creatins down here.