Mexican Gangs may be moving into Meth

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C'mon, Keith, follow the argument. My point was that folks saw that whole episode on TV and such goings-on are why many citizens come to believe that the availability of guns needs to be restricted and that their own police departments need more firepower. I didn't bring that up to dissect the incident itself ...

Don't want your teenage daughters, nieces, granddaughters to become drug addicts? Then be involved enough in their lives.
This old saw again? Well, can't disagree. Regrettably, not everyone can be with their children 24/7, nor can we prevent their exposure to bad elements in their schools, their part-time jobs, or what they see on TV or in the movies. In my experience, I've seen kids from the best of homes, with nurturing, educated, religious and involved parents still end up hooked on drugs.
 
Keith Wheeler said:
Some folks in this thread think that drugs, meth in particular, are Satan incarnate. "Evil, pure and simple, from the 8th dimension."

Good post, if a bit inflammatory.

The thing is, I started out my arguments by conceding that meth is bad, evil, icky stuff.

Meth's goodness or evilness is not the issue at hand. I do not think anyone on this thread has claimed that meth is really good stuff. So all these satisfyingly emotional arguments are being used against a position no one has actually taken.

pax
 
I've seen kids from the best of homes, with nurturing, educated, religious and involved parents still end up hooked on drugs.

Yep. And I've seen kids from similar homes with shattered bones from accidental gunshot wounds.

I'm still not trying to make guns illegal.
 
There is a good movie out there called "If... drugs were legal" made by BBC its a great movie on the effects of legalizeing drugs-both good and bad.

IMDB link
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443541/

I would say some here should watch it. Also there are some countrys that have these drugs legalized. Instead of fighting them they provide treatment and education. I like that way better. But thats me.:uhoh:
 
You can't have it both ways. Episodes such as the West Hollywood bank robbery, quite apart from the WoD, go a long ways in convincing even ordinary citizens that their local PD needs an APC and fully-auto M-16s.
Oh, but guess what. If the laws of our nation where about what they were in the early part of last century and prior, those guys would more than likely have been gunned down from roof tops and windows by regular folks. No SWAT would have been needed. Used to happen all the time. Today the cops would more than likely turn their guns around and start shooting at the regular folks trying to help them. What a country we've become. :(

PS: As I recall it, it was regular cops with civilian legal arms that finally brought these guys down anyway. The SWAT folks couldn't get their huge armored vehicles close enough.
 
TRH, I agree wholeheartedly with you. My point was (again) that the result of the incident became the perception by the uninformed, the clueless, the anti-gun and the common-sense-challenged citizenry that the PDs were outgunned.
 
Meth is a drug that when made available has a negative and harmful effect on people. Nothing good is coming from the uses of meth on the streets and most assuredly, plenty of bad. Bicycles, skateboards and the like have good uses and are beneficial, meth isn't beneficial. IMO, that argument is weak.

And, Cropcirclewalker is all up in arms over one 92 year old lady but self admittedly doesn't give a rats ass about the 10's or possible 100's of thousands of children and their families that have now and, would have their life ruined by this drug. I'm guessing he doesn't give a crap about the the little old lady either, she's just convenient for his argument. So what the hey, lets make it legal, get more kids hooked, ruin more young lives and possibly kill more 92 year old lady's via the rantings of our even more screwed up, paranoid and wired society. Hell, if we do that maybe I can rest easier about "the police state" coming to my place, deep in the woods.

The best argument I have heard on this forum for legalization is from QuestionEverything. Well put! It has me thinking.

I guess you haven't noticed the many problems that did go away with the repeal. People used to blind themselves drinking bathtub gin and methyl alcohol, and the criminal activity surrounding the use of alcohol is an order of magnitude lower than it was when drinking itself was illegal. Legalizing other drugs would have the same effects. There would be fewer health problems associated with drug use because the manufacturers would have to abide by regulations governing the purity and quality of the substances. Today many drug dealers will cut their product with "filler" substances that are much more damaging than the drugs themselves (keep in mind alcohol is the only recreational drug that directly kills brain cells).

And if the dealers' underground economy collapses, their turf wars will also come to an end. Just as drug users can harm members of their families, the illicit drug trade destroys communities and harms millions of people who themselves never use or sell drugs. Many inner-city neighborhoods have become war zones because of competing drug dealers, and the only way to pull the plug on those guys is to eliminate the market for their product by making it legal. This would also help the RKBA cause, because if gang violence were reduced to a fraction of what it was it would be a lot harder for the antis to persuade the public that guns should be more tightly restricted.

(I am not in any way discounting the 92 years old womans death, it's tragic.)
 
And, Cropcirclewalker is all up in arms over one 92 year old lady but self admittedly doesn't give a rats ass about the 10's or possible 100's of thousands of children and their families that have now and, would have their life ruined by this drug. I'm guessing he doesn't give a crap about the the little old lady either, she's just convenient for his argument. So what the hey, lets make it legal, get more kids hooked, ruin more young lives and possibly kill more 92 year old lady's via the rantings of our even more screwed up, paranoid and wired society. Hell, if we do that maybe I can rest easier about "the police state" coming to my place, deep in the woods.

It's almost as if I thought Pax's admonishment might have settled you down a little. Now you are into saying cuss words and accusing me of having little concern for my fellow innocent citizen (fellow non-combatant in the wod).

It's OK. Walk it off. You will feel better.

All innocent life is precious. Even little old ladies and children killed in the crossfire. Those that kill themselves, I feel sorry about, but you drug war apologists should feel responsible.

I hope you get to feeling better.
 
.....doesn't give a rats ass about the 10's or possible 100's of thousands of children and their families that have now and, would have their life ruined by this drug. I'm guessing he doesn't give a crap about the the little old lady either, she's just convenient for his argument. So what the hey, lets make it legal, get more kids hooked, ruin more young lives and possibly kill more 92 year old lady's via the rantings of our even more screwed up, paranoid and wired society.

OR

....doesn't give a rats ass about the 10's or possible 100's of thousands of children and their families that have now and, would have their life ruined by GUNS. I'm guessing he doesn't give a crap about the the little old lady either, she's just convenient for his argument. So what the hey, lets make it legal, get more kids SHOT, ruin more young lives and possibly kill more 92 year old lady's via the rantings of our even more screwed up, paranoid and ARMED society.

Same argument, different inanimate object.
But, it's OK because it's for the children.
 
Sigh.. the same arguments for/against guns cannot be used for meth. Apples to oranges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy
A lot of people here need to take an entry level Logic class at the local community college.

Also.. For those that support legalizing all drugs? Would you also support people being able to buy whatever medication they want at the local store? Should people be able to buy all prescription medicines over the counter too?
 
hmmm

"No cop I know thinks his job security is tied to the WoD."

No? think dea. and to be fair its not real cops that react that way rather paper pushing kingdom builders are the ones to fear
 
too true

In my experience, I've seen kids from the best of homes, with nurturing, educated, religious and involved parents still end up hooked on drugs.


and in my case part of the allure was "eing bad" breaking the rules/law.



and to whoever said acid can fry your brain i have to suspect that that is a real crap shoot, that perhaps those brains mighta beeen a lil more prone to frying a lil parboiled. At the risk of ruining my rep i endukged in the timothy leary experience more times than i care to admit. and it wasn't acid that started to fry my brain it was booze that got me. i realized that at 30 something i was experiencing some brain damage. but thankfully that was legal brain damage
 
Should people be able to buy all prescription medicines over the counter too?

Yes. I know lots of folks who used to go to Mexico to buy antibiotics and such without them and the world didn't end. Last I heard, only heavy duty narcotics were regulated there but my info could be out of date.

Again, the debate comes down to freedom, with all it's consequences, or state regulation of everything all the time. There is also the collusion between the drug industry and govt to limit competition and keep the prices artifically high to keep in mind. It's always a good idea to follow the money whenever anyone starts talking safety.

As for legalizing all the current blackmarket stuff, I think we could come up with some reasonable compromise to keep the really bad stuff illegal, like meth and pcp for starters, but eliminate sending people to jail for backyard plants and such. The problem is that the anti-drug folks won't even discuss such things. So we end up with all the bad effects of drug use and the bad effects of enforcement at the same time, with no end in sight. Sad.
 
As for legalizing all the current blackmarket stuff, I think we could come up with some reasonable compromise to keep the really bad stuff illegal, like meth and pcp for starters, but eliminate sending people to jail for backyard plants and such. The problem is that the anti-drug folks won't even discuss such things. So we end up with all the bad effects of drug use and the bad effects of enforcement at the same time, with no end in sight. Sad.

That's reasonable.


Should people be able to buy all prescription medicines over the counter too?

Nope, not all, agreed. But, more than are available at this time.
 
Yes. I know lots of folks who used to go to Mexico to buy antibiotics and such without them and the world didn't end. Last I heard, only heavy duty narcotics were regulated there but my info could be out of date.

It's illegal for people to buy prescription medication in Tijuana with a prescription from a Mexican doctor. The Mexican gov't runs warning ads on the radio here in San Diego.. Of course it's Mexico and the law is selectively enforced so you can get anything. However, if the Tijuana's finest actually feel like being a cop for a day you get busted, you'll be in a world of mierda. :)

As for legalizing all the current blackmarket stuff, I think we could come up with some reasonable compromise to keep the really bad stuff illegal, like meth and pcp for starters, but eliminate sending people to jail for backyard plants and such. The problem is that the anti-drug folks won't even discuss such things. So we end up with all the bad effects of drug use and the bad effects of enforcement at the same time, with no end in sight. Sad.

See I agree with this. The problem is the pro-legalization people are just like the anti-legalization. Both sides see it as an "all or nothing" approach. One side says, "Drugs are bad, they should all be illegal" and the other side says, "It's my body, I should be able to put whatever poison I want in it"

Somewhere in between is a middle ground. I think drugs like crack and meth should be illegal for obvious reasons, whereas drugs like marijuana should be legalized because it really isnt that harmful to the body or society in general.
 
The problem is the pro-legalization people are just like the anti-legalization.
Thats an overly broad generalization crazed_ss. I'm one of those pro-legilization folks (just about everything in my perfect world), but I'm willing to accept a true compromise to legalize or even just decrimminalize some recreational drugs in order to reduce the damage being done to our society and rights by this pestulant "War on Drugs".
 
overseas drugs

you'd be surprised what folks have to buy. besides the abomination of dying folks denied pain meds because some pencil pusher at the dea knows whats best i can cite my moms experience in 1976 she had run the whole gamut of legal chemo here. there was a drug legal for tb treatment here since the 50's. not yet approved for cancer treatment by the fda. we shipped her to japan where the treatment was legal and smuggled back a years worth when she returned, they gave her 6 months she made it 6 years with the treatment
 
Also.. For those that support legalizing all drugs? Would you also support people being able to buy whatever medication they want at the local store? Should people be able to buy all prescription medicines over the counter too?
Of course. You'd still be free to see a doctor and ask his recommendations, but you'd also be free to research the meds on your own and decide when you need them, and what you need. Truth be told, my father is an internist. I was raised in a doctor's house, and 99% of the time I can tell you exactly what he is going to say to you when you present with a certain set of symptoms, and I can tell you exactly what meds, and in what dosage he will prescribe. Yes, there's that one percent that I would miss, but most things a doctor sees are common illnesses with standard symptom sets and standard prescriptions. Most educated people could learn when they have, for example, infectious bronchitis secondary to a cold, requiring antibiotics (I've known how to diagnose that since I was a kid back in the 1960s and 70s), and it's a simple matter to look in a book to determine which antibiotic is best for typical infectious bronchitis (Sometimes, by the way, it's viral, and therefore time limited whether or not you take anti-biotics). You really don't need a doctor for that, but the Medical profession benefits from this legal requirement of seeing a doctor for things like this, so the laws are geared, at the expense of liberty, to help those in that profession, but that doesn't make it right.
 
Logic is a lot less fulfilling, but I do wish someone had tried to answer the logical arguments presented in either of my earlier posts with a somewhat-logical attempt at refutation.
Your earlier posts were right on the money, Pax, as were at least half a dozen others. None of them, however, did a thing to sway the folks who respond to even the most perfectly crafted and logical post with "But what about the children?!?" over and over and over and.

It's almost as though someone stole a page from Nancy Pelosi's playbook...
 
Pax asked me a direct question, I quoted it and answered the question very directly. I'll be happy to speak to Pax's next post.

Pax, everything I read in post number 148 of yours, besides not being able to un-invent meth, is dealing with the addict. I don't have much disagreement with you in that regard. What I am concerned about are the people that are not yet addicted, because they have not tried it, that will become addicted through the legalization of meth because of it's more readily available state, the nature of the drug itself and the stamp of approval it would appear to receive. Now we have more meth addicts, the very people you spoke at length about in your post. That's what I do not want to happen and I what I believe would happen if this particular drug were legalized for all to use. If you can convince me that won't happen, I would be very pleased.

One last point. It's my opinion crime will still be there from the addicts. They may not be robbing and stealing to pay for a more expensive habit but they'll be robbing and stealing to pay for their house, car, electric bill, gas bill, food bill, etc; because employment doesn't last long for meth addicts. If we have more of them because we legalized this drug, even though it's cheap now, we'll have more crime of this nature. Up the meth addicts, up the crime.
 
With all due respect, Marshall, you cherry pick the occasional line out of someone's post, "rebutt" it with a redirection, and ignore the rest of it. This is evidenced most directly by your repeated references to "all the poor women and children".

Again with all due respect, every single one of your points has been dissected and dismantled at least half a dozen times and you have utterly ignored it, blithely repeating your same talking points over and over again. I can only believe you are either not reading these posts or are intentionally ignoring them.

Either way, around and around we go, and I have no doubt that your response, if any, to this post will be something along the lines of "Nuh-uh!"

But you're still a great guy in my book. We just won't see eye to eye on this one. :)
 
"The kids are callin this new superweed "88 Magnum ""

"it shoots through schools ""
The kids see it as farcical when the antis try to demonize their grass . Seriously it is a pretty hard job to make it look evil and worthy of all the ATAS hardware without sounding like Nancy lecturing me about proper headspacing and accuracy .

In 1914 , the American Wholesale Druggist Association and the AMA adamantly protested marihuana's inclusion in the Harrison Uniform Narcotics Act . They had the same indications as now , apetite, nausea ,sleep . The AMA publicly complained about the outright lies that were given as testimony before congress by proponents of the new law . After a rash of raids , arrests, and liscense revovations , the AMA changed it's position .

I dont think any of them got shot , but they most likely dropped their stethoscopes when told to . research the testimony and you will see it was very similar to Pelosi's tall tales of railcar toppling 50 's , only more racist . And the fabrications then as now served no real purpose other than to feather political nests . The outcome ,be it good or bad , was irrelevant .
 
It seems the main argument against legalization is "look at all the damage addiction does to people." My reply:


1. Addiction would do less damage if it were viewed as a health problem and treated by a comprehensive rehab program, which could easily be funded with a fraction of the money now going to the WoD.


2. The damage done by addiction to individuals and their families is dwarfed by the damage done by the drug war to communities. Hundreds of neighborhoods across the US have been reduced to virtual combat zones by the illegal drug trade, with countless innocent people dying as dealers compete for turf. This violence and criminal activity begets more violence and crime as people turn to lawbreaking in hopes of escaping their decaying communities. Non-violent drug offenders who get sent to prison learn the ways of violent crime and often have no other employment option after their release. And as I mentioned, the killings perpetrated by drug dealers give fuel to anti-gun arguments.


3. If that doesn't convince you, here's a fun federal document:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/pma/dea.pdf

“DEA is unable to demonstrate its progress in reducing the availability of illegal drugs in the U.S.”

Your tax dollars.


4. If we can't agree on legalizing all drugs, can we agree on legalizing the non-addictive ones, like pot and hallucinogens? There is virtually no violence and crime linked to the use of these chemicals (certainly less than alcohol) and the tax savings would be massive. Does anyone think that non-addictive recreational drugs should remain illegal?


5. I've heard countless right-wing conservatives talk about "personal responsibility" and "keeping the government's hand out of your pocket." For those here of that political alignment, why shouldn't people be held personally responsible for what they put into their bodies? Why does the government have to constantly pull back the baby's hand from the hot stovetop of addiction?


6. If you really want to get educated about the effects of the drug war, here's some reading:

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/

Some sections of interest at the above site:

Corruption: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/corrupt.htm

Impact on families: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/families.htm

About meth: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/methamph.htm

Civil rights: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/civilrts.htm


Also, to TimboKhan:

LSD is unlikely to "fry" anyone's brain. Anyone who experiences a decline in mental health after using acid was likely using an impure product mixed with something else, had a pre-existing disposition to schizophrenia (it runs in some families), or was using excessive quantities and/or taking multiple doses in a row. A person who dosed every day for three months may very well be mentally incompetent afterwards, but such use of the chemical is very irresponsible. It's akin to drinking a bottle of Everclear in one sitting.

Good and bad trips, like good and bad dreams, are the product of a person's feelings and attitude when using the drug. As long as someone doesn't take LSD when they are stressed, scared or depressed, bad trips are unlikely. Finally, LSD isn't the only hallucinogen out there: mushrooms are cheaper and more plentiful, and are said to provide a milder, "happier" experience. There are many more chemicals out there, including mescaline, MDMA and "research chemicals" that aren't illegal because they aren't widely used enough for the powers that be to take notice.
 
Marshall ~

Thanks for that answer. :)

The reason I asked you earlier if you personally would become a drug addict if meth were legalized is simply that I do not particularly believe that most human beings are that stupid and that suicidal. You looked into the abyss, and turned back. Most people don't even need to do that much, and are not physically or emotionally wired for addictive behavior in any case. -- and you yourself rightly rejected someone else's argument that you are stronger than the average person. You're just a human being, no better and no worse than the average. Why then assume that the majority of people are worse or weaker than you are yourself?

I am not discounting the tale you told about your friend. There will always be self-destructive types among us, people who feel compelled to sample this garbage even when it is completely illegal and even when they know they are flirting with jail time, loss of civil rights, and death in order to do it. But there are far, far, far more people who refuse to sample, or who, having sampled, turn away, than there are who become full blown addicts.

Is the only thing that prevents you from shooting yourself in the head the fact that there is a law against suicide? I honestly doubt it ...

To be utterly clear, I do not think the purpose of law is to restrain self-destructive behavior. I think the only proper use of governmental force is to protect human rights by restraining those who would harm others. I am hardly alone in this -- see my sig line for an example. This was the type of thinking that founded America, and the type of thinking that underlies America's very foundations. Those foundations are slowly and surely washing away, and I fear the structure itself will not be far behind; but that's a subject for another thread.

Meanwhile, a personal note about the WoD. I won't bother telling you about 92-year-old ladies. Instead I'm going to tell you a somewhat pointless tale about my own family. I live in a country house, miles from town, with my husband and our five children. We have a renter who lives upstairs as well, bringing the household total to eight people. As in most households, whenever one of my children catches cold, the rest of us are not far behind.

This is how ridiculous the WoD has become: It is literally against the law for us to own enough cold medicine to supply everyone in my household for a single week when we are all sick.

For us, a trip to purchase cold medicine means a 25-minute drive to town, and another 25 minutes to get home again, expending both gasoline and time. When we want to purchase cold medicine, it must be during the day while the pharmacy is open, never at the 24-hour grocery store after the pharmacy windows are closed (when do your kids get sick?). And, of course, I must show my driver's license to the pharmacist whenever I buy this over-the-counter medicine. The medicine costs roughly six times as much as it did just a few short years ago. It is against the law for me to stock up on the medicine, and it never goes on sale.

There is talk in my state's capital about placing this perfectly safe and effective medicine back onto the prescription-only list. That would increase its cost by a hundred-fold, since it would then require a trip to the doctor's office as well -- for each sick person, if we did it legally.

Does my family's empty medicine cabinet prevent the spread of meth in my community? It does not. I still see tweakers with rotted teeth, disgusting skin, and spaced-out smiles wandering around when I go into town. I still read about drug busts in the paper and still hear about contaminated houses costing the landlord a fortune to clean up. Limiting my family's supply of decongestants does not seem to be any more effective than any other measure used to "prevent" these people's access to the means of killing themselves slowly.

Meanwhile, I wonder how many low-income families allow their children simply to suffer needlessly with perpetual congestion, risking sinus infections, permanent hearing damage, pneumonia, or worse, simply because they cannot afford the increased cost of a medicine that should cost only pennies, and that did cost only pennies just a few short years ago. I wonder how many do not allow their children to use decongestant because the parents do not want to show their driver's licenses, or fear putting their names on the pharmacists' lists. I hope I am not igniting the whole pro-LEO/anti-LEO debate when I comment that too many people truly fear any entanglement with our legal system whatsoever, and that placing even a low barrier between these people and this basic, effective medicine which can prevent more complicated diseases seems like a bad idea.

So there we have it. You're convinced that the purpose of law is to restrain people from harming themselves, and to give people some sort of moral guidance about what is good and what is bad. I do not accept that view, cannot accept that view, and I do not expect to change your mind. But that view has had some unintended ill effects on both our legal system and on individual human beings.

When the next anti-drug campaign urges you all to think of the children and pass a feel-good law even further restricting people's access to an inexpensive modern medicine, I would urge you to think of the children -- that is, of the even higher number of children who are going to end up in the hospital with ruptured eardrums, chronic sinus infections, or pneumonia as a direct result of that law. They won't be counted as casualties in the WoD, but they should be.

pax

The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. -– John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859)
 
Funny how the erosion of our rights is pretty much the same song, played over.
Mafia is horrible: write lots of federal laws that curtail interstate gun commerce, machine guns, etc. and never repeal, long after the 'threat' is passed. This problem brought to you buy Prohibition, a ban on a prior legal product.

Make it illegal, create a mob, Mexican and Columbians, Afganis, etc. that profit from the illegal drug trade.

My review is the making a product illegal creates more problems then it's worth.
If drugs are legal, the production stays in the U.S. and is regulated, and taxed. Jobs and, less taxes for citizens(yes I know, too much LSD on my part...l(

Mainly, we deprive many countries intent on destroying us, of money we have, that is funneled out of our country, to theirs, for bad purpose. And, here I'm thinking terrorism, etc.
S
 
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