Better than nothing?

[TimboKhan]

Robinkevin,

It's hard to miss a stationary target, under low stress conditions at close range. Its considerably easier to miss when your system is all jacked up, your target is moving and your spot on this mortal coil is on the line!

Again, not so hard to prove. First time you shot a deer, I betcha you had a harder time with that shot than you did on the range. It's all that adrenaline dumping into your system. Experience and practice smooth that out, but most folks haven't the experience when it comes to self defense, so you have practice a lot.

The instinct is that you will revert to training. Shooting a buck or a duck simply does not prepare a person for shooting at another person. Fear, the inherent resistance to killing a human that most sane people have, adrenaline, training unsuitable to CQB, all can add up to disaster regardless of the firearm being used.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[TarDevil]

Either way I don't appreciate being talk down to, I will over look it as it's not my usually experience with this site. Have a good evening.

Nor would I, and it ISN'T the usual in this site. But please remember also that the vast majority of folks here take guns and self defense very seriously and might get frustrated when knowledgeable counsel is ignored under the ruse of "experience." Honestly, your comments about shotguns are fine for one hunting squirrels... but woefully inadequate for self defense. "Hard to miss with a 2" J frame at 7 yards?" Nuff said.

Just went through a self defense acquisition with my daughter. She wanted a handgun, and having shot both long guns and handguns with her I strongly suggested a shotgun. Her first time out she was appalled at how many times she missed a 4 x 4 piece of ply at 10 - 15 yards with #8 shot. After several days and a few hundred rounds she could split that piece of ply with 5 rounds. We moved on to buck. After she recovered her balance from her first shot, she again was amazed - at the same distances - that her "pattern" was the size of a tight fist... from an unchoked pump with an 18 in. barrel. She learned first hand that she better practice a lot and aim carefully. She also learned that the awesome recoil made an equally awesome hole in that ply... and knew how such well placed power could save her life.

We are now working on her handgun skills and before summer's end she'll have her revolver and start working on her CCW. Long story short... she methodically learned hers and her guns' capabilities and applied the work were needed.

Open-mindedness.... That's all anyone can ask.

 

[Robert]

Fellas, keep it civil. If anyone feels that a member is out of line please hit the report button and let one of the mods take a look.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't know if you are trying to be cute or just a smart pants... However I think most see where I am coming from.

What do you mean by my standards? Is that to imply that there is something wrong with the Rough Rider or the Caliber?

You don't know what your own standards are even though you used them to entitle the thread?

I am not trying to be cute or just smart pants. You are the one using the "better than nothing" standard and that is an absurdly low standard on which to base the defense of your life.

The 'better than nothing' standard is the lowest possible non-negative standard other than zero which is neigher positive or negative.

 

[robinkevin]

You don't know what your own standards are even though you used them to entitle the thread?

I am not trying to be cute or just smart pants. You are the one using the "better than nothing" standard and that is an absurdly low standard on which to base the defense of your life.

The 'better than nothing' standard is the lowest possible non-negative standard other than zero which is neigher positive or negative.

Ok that makes more sense than. I took you wrong way first... I see what you mean but at the same time I don't know if it's so bad to think better than nothing, when you have nothing. So far as my standards being a little higher, well the way I look at it is this. If I have enough to make do and I can provide additional defense for my family without taking food off the table that the better than nothing standard works for me. It's hard to judge someone's standards without being in their shoes and understand the sacrifices that are made to provide the best that they can.

 

[robinkevin]

Nor would I, and it ISN'T the usual in this site. But please remember also that the vast majority of folks here take guns and self defense very seriously and might get frustrated when knowledgeable counsel is ignored under the ruse of "experience." Honestly, your comments about shotguns are fine for one hunting squirrels... but woefully inadequate for self defense. "Hard to miss with a 2" J frame at 7 yards?" Nuff said.

Just went through a self defense acquisition with my daughter. She wanted a handgun, and having shot both long guns and handguns with her I strongly suggested a shotgun. Her first time out she was appalled at how many times she missed a 4 x 4 piece of ply at 10 - 15 yards with #8 shot. After several days and a few hundred rounds she could split that piece of ply with 5 rounds. We moved on to buck. After she recovered her balance from her first shot, she again was amazed - at the same distances - that her "pattern" was the size of a tight fist... from an unchoked pump with an 18 in. barrel. She learned first hand that she better practice a lot and aim carefully. She also learned that the awesome recoil made an equally awesome hole in that ply... and knew how such well placed power could save her life.

We are now working on her handgun skills and before summer's end she'll have her revolver and start working on her CCW. Long story short... she methodically learned hers and her guns' capabilities and applied the work were needed.

Open-mindedness.... That's all anyone can ask.

You are correct and I think I may be a little at fault when it comes to open-mindedness as much as the next guy. To me shooting is natural, I often shoot pistols including snub nose revolvers at 25 yards. Why? Well mainly cause the only range close to me is actually set up for rifle and 25 yards is the closest I can set up a target. When on the farm I like to get a little closer to see what I can do. Usually shoot a lot better groups, but still hitting paper at 7 yards is easy for me being more use to the 25 yards. My wife on the same note hasn't made the time to go shoot with me on the farm and at the range I speak of I don't think she even came close to the target at 25 yards with the P3AT I had. Guess it really does depend a lot on the person and I need to realize that.

Far as under stress such as you mention taking my first deer. I have never experience the lost of fine motor skills or other things that comes with being stressed. The old man use to drill in my head that with hunting "Don't get excited till after you have drop the deer. There is time to get excited afterwards.". So maybe that has something to do with not having that issue with hunting even with my first buck I apply the same concept. I hope that I would be able to do that in a home defense situation much as I would with a fist fight due to my training in that... Once again I do say hope, as I can't really say till I am in those shoes...

 

[jrdolall]

I am also one of those individuals that never gets "buck fever". I may get all jittery and nervous after the shot but I have always been completely calm even when preparing to take a "trophy". I have no idea why this is the case but I am generally a very calm individual so maybe it translates into my hunting. I have watched people start shaking when getting ready to shoot a doe so I know it is a real deal. Two year ago I shot a doe and got my normal "post shot" jitters. 30 seconds later a very nice 10 pointer came running in and my nervousness completely went away. Until after I shot him.

Of course a deer or elk will probably not shoot back, at least they never have in my experience. I would probably soil my clothes if someone actually pointed a gun at me in anger.

On occasion I carry a 22 semi. I normally carry a 9mm because I feel it is the better option of the two. I have never needed either one and hope i never do.

BTW it is legal in Alabama to kill 2 deer per day.

 

[TimboKhan]

I am also one of those individuals that never gets "buck fever".

Boy, lucky you! I still have to force myself to calm down at the shot. Certainly it's not as bad as it once was, but as soon as I feel like everything is in line I have to take a little bit to calm myself down to actually make a good shot. I have even had to develop the patience to pass up shots I probably could make but are a bit sketchy. I don't need to kill a deer or pheasant or whatever, so as an adult I have had to learn to just say no in certain situations. Plus, if at all possible, I don't want to have to track a deer for miles on end while the poor thing suffers with a misplaced bullet in it's rump. Not that I can guarantee that they will drop at the shot, but the better chance I give myself to make a shot that will do just that, the more likely that it is to happen.

 

[jrdolall]

Not that I can guarantee that they will drop at the shot, but the better chance I give myself to make a shot that will do just that, the more likely that it is to happen

I shot three whitetail bucks this past season and two of them fell in their tracks. The third ran about 150 yards straight downhill into a creek bottom with no road access so I had to drag him upill to the road. I am too old for that stuff. I made a perfect shot on the deer that ran but he was in the process of bugging out after catching my scent so I guess his adrenaline kept him running. I picked up the 3rd one from the taxidermist this week.

I absolutely refuse to take a questionable shot for your stated reason. I own the land so there is no reason to shoot unless I am confident in the shot.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ok so once again best lay plans have went to ruins and doesn't look like I will be getting my 3rd gen Smith and Wesson anytime soon. In the mean time I now find myself without a defensive firearm in the house and just don't quite feel right. So here is my current mind set, I feel it might be a bit flaw however. What you guys think?

I have been looking at the cheap Single Action Rough Riders with 22LR/22mag set up for awhile for plinking. Now as said before without firearm I was thinking picking one up for under $200 and I would have a .22LR to plink with and finally get more shooting time in, and being able to run the .22mag for self defense duty till I can get myself a 3rd Gen Smith in 9mm or a classic Model 10... Just kinda torn. another option is just really try hard to save up for a Model 10, I have seen a few of them in the $275 ball park pass few months. Just seems hard getting there as something always comes up.

Of course the other option would be something like a Hi Point, but even though they are fine pistols for their intended purpose. I just don't have much desire to own one.

So what you guys think Rough Rider better than nothing?

EDIT: Also I will soon (maybe even before the Rough Rider) be getting a Mossberg 12GA which will be main home defense weapon. Thought that might be a factor as well...

Find a Makrov in 9x18 at some pawn shop. Should find them around $200 bucks.

Saw one last week, a EG, for about $230 in these parts.

Also a used Bersa .380 is also an option.

Deaf

 

[NMGonzo]

makarovs are cheap and good

don't buy a toy

 

[Teachu2]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/268/products_id/56879/Handguns/Hi-Point

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...40G 10rd 40S/W 4 1/2/quot; Barrel Olive Drab/

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...Round 9MM Compact w/Black Finish / Hard Case/

There are three brand-new pistols in true defensive calibers that are well within your budget. The third one is 9mm, which you can buy at WalMart for $13 a box, maybe less in your area. You can buy bulk reloads even cheaper.

Or you can spend a little more and get the HHR. You'll save money on .22LR ammo, but .22WMR will cost nearly as much as 9mm.

The HHR, or any other .22 rimfire, is a poor choice for SD. Yes, you can kill someone with one - but they might kill you before they bleed out. A 9mm or larger decreases the chances of that happening.

If you are buying a handgun with the idea that it will back up your primary defense weapon, buy one that's up to the task. If you said "I haul small loads of alfalfa hay (10 bales or so) from my Dad's farm to local 4H kids that are raising lambs using a rough and ready old 3/4 ton Ford pickup, and I'm thinking of buying a Mazda Miata to use as a backup work vehicle", the responses aren't knocking the quality, cost. or appearance of the Miata. They would, however, question it's suitability for the stated purpose. A backup weapon has to assume the function the primary was unable to perform - stopping an attacker from continuing their attack. If the 12ga hasn't done so, a .22 rimfire probably isn't going to scare 'em off. Personally, if I'm backing up a 12ga, I'd consider a 9mm on the small side - but a .45acp will cost nearly twice as much to feed. The 9mm is probably your best choice that can work with your budget.

 

[mljdeckard]

Eat some mac and cheese. Stall the cable bill. Find a used .38 or G-19.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Eat some mac and cheese. Stall the cable bill. Find a used .38 or G-19.

You know, long time ago Jeff Cooper pretty much said the same thing.

He said to stop eating out for a while, cut down unneeded expenditures, and save for a quality gun. He had a point.

For right now I'd just get a Bersa .380 (easy to find) and then cut down on expenditures till you have the money for a real good gun be it a SIG, Glock, H&K, S&W, Browning, Springfield Armory, etc...

And yes the Makrov is an option. Reliable as a Glock.

But later do get a more powerful piece be it a simi-auto or wheelgun.

Deaf

 

[Jim NE]

Hi Point will be better than the Heritage R.R. for defense until the OP gets his S&W.

Then the Hi Point will be redundant in function and purpose to the S&W, as well as inferior to it, and will likely not be used. Being a .22 plinker, the RR will not be redundant at all. It will not have outlived it's purpose.

If the OP lives/works in a crappy neighborhood and it'll be two years before he can buy the Smith, then the HP may be the way to go. If he lives in a decent neighborhood and it'll be 4 months till he can get the Smith, then I'd get the R.R.

Rough riders are a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[robinkevin]

Be find for a single man but my son would kill me long before I have to worry about getting a firearm for protection from outside source if I told him Mac and Cheese and No cartoon channels.

Really to each their own. I have decided to go with the HRR. It something that I will enjoy even after getting a better pistol. I live in a good town with low crime. It may be 2 years or 6 months before I can get my Smith but I'm fine with that. After all I don't really expect the Mossberg to fail and IF it does If something should happen then IF the low life trying to break in to my home doesn't run after getting shot 6 times with .22mag and If after taking those shots can still take me on then I'd say not much of anything else would of helped as he had lady luck on his side.

 

[sixgunner455]

When I was in college many years ago, I really wanted to be able to have a pistol to protect myself and my wife. I was working part time for minimum wage, but managed to save up $200.

I bought something like this: a used .22 Ruger MKII. You can, obviously, still get something like that.

I shot the snot out of it, got very, very good with it, and used it to chase off a guy who was trying to get in a hotel room we were in one night on a road trip. I still have it, still shoot the snot out of it, and tomorrow, it's going to be one of the guns a newbie shooter uses to get broken in to shooting handguns. It is my wife's favorite gun.

I consider it a better defense weapon than a single-action .22, even in .22 mag, because it holds more rounds, and you can fire them much, much faster, and reloading is much, much faster. They feel good, they are very accurate, very reliable, very rugged. I would get a used Ruger MKII before a new HRR, in your situation.

That said, I love my Ruger Single Six, and would not consider myself unarmed if it were my only gun, even if I only had a .22LR cylinder instead of the convertible I do have.

Get what makes you happy. It's your money. I would not buy a 9mm in your shoes, because as you said, you wouldn't be able to afford to shoot it. I would get a .22 and that 12guage, and shoot them a lot.

 

[B!ngo]

The HiPoint for sure. And in time, when you have plenty of money and a gun collection that pleases you, you'll look at the HiPoint (which you should keep of course because of it's memories and it will still be working perfectly) and think back on to old times.
A single shot .22 really makes very little sense.
B

 

[CharlieSW]

Just to be contrary, I will support your HRR plan -- I have one now that is fun to shoot and pretty accurate. Running the 22 Mags through it is icing on the cake.

This is actually my second HRR -- on the first one the barrel was clocked off a few degrees so the POA was off. I traded that one in, and later found one with a straight front sight. It is a nice looking pistol with laminated grips and a case hardened frame. It was less than $200.

So my advice would be to check the clocking on the barrel/front sight, find one that lines up straight, and enjoy!

 

[robinkevin]

Just to be contrary, I will support your HRR plan -- I have one now that is fun to shoot and pretty accurate. Running the 22 Mags through it is icing on the cake.

This is actually my second HRR -- on the first one the barrel was clocked off a few degrees so the POA was off. I traded that one in, and later found one with a straight front sight. It is a nice looking pistol with laminated grips and a case hardened frame. It was less than $200.

So my advice would be to check the clocking on the barrel/front sight, find one that lines up straight, and enjoy!

I have heard of a few people having that issue. Was planning on buying new so I would have 1 year warranty to return it if it has any defects.