biathlon

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murf

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just a reminder, ibu world cup biathlon is in full swing. just finished watching the men's pursuit race, watched the women's pursuit earlier today. still amazed that the women shoot as well as, or better than, the men. don't know any other sport where women are better than men, even up.

murf
 
Boy, I don’t want to piss them off though. They are in the ultimate position to hunt me down and kill me.
 
amazed that the women shoot as well as, or better than, the men

Shooting is a test of fine motor skills. No reason women cannot have equal or better fine motor control.

Women also have a slight advantage in the standing position, due to a lower center of gravity.
 
I was watching the competition while at lunch with friends a couple days ago and one noted that there probably wasn’t a lot of “Me too” bs going on in the ranks of the women.
 
Ummm, maybe I'm not the one who should tell you this, but that post is quite sexist. And you are wrong, actually - tennis, shooting, archery, or fencing are just a small example of sports where woman can and do compete equal or better compared to men.
 
There have been and are a number of women who are NRA Long Range and Highpower Champions. And F Class champions. I don't know the number who have won Smallbore Prone, but I remember reading about them in the American Rifleman. One lady shooter I know, she has at least won Woman's F Class, might have been overall, her husband is also an excellent shot. But, as he says, "she is a better wind reader".

I have never competed in any biathlon, reading about it, the men ski 20 km and the women 15 km, shoot at targets, and the fastest time wins. I could envision that the best men would have faster times over the 15 km segment, based on muscle mass, but so what. Any of them would do better than me, as I not in the physical condition they are. And never have been, and never will be.
 
Wasn’t intending to be sexist, just expressing admiration for women who are really good at doing stuff that is “traditionally” perceived as being a “man” thing.
The implication of the post was intended to be that these women appear very capable of taking care of themselves without resorting to victimhood.
 
For the most part women are not as "aggressive" competitors as men are, they take a more calm and methodical approach. Men on the other hand tend to take the Big Buck approach using their antlers to destroy the competition through aggression. I've seen men get so competitive in shooting events, their focus is on beating the other guy rather than concentrating on the fundamentals and targets.
 
You may notice that women don't compete against men in biathlon. It's not the shooting; it's the skiing. The fact remains, women do not have the same power as men in nordic skiing.
 
I’ve had my ass handed to me (in skeet competition) on a number of occasions by 16-17 y/o girls who were exponentially better shots than I’ll ever be.

While I obviously didn’t feel good about losing, It was really neat to see a kid do so well, and to know that she would have decades to only get better.
 
I’ve had my ass handed to me (in skeet competition) on a number of occasions by 16-17 y/o girls who were exponentially better shots than I’ll ever be.

While I obviously didn’t feel good about losing, It was really neat to see a kid do so well, and to know that she would have decades to only get better.
maybe she is the new kim rhode.

murf
 
Not shooting related, but I used to race Motocross and there was a girl half my age in my class that beat me and most of the guys her own age on an embarrassingly regular basis. Don't let the ladies fool you.
 
A couple months ago, I did my first 10K Run n Gun biathlon. Instead of skiing like they do in the Olympic event, you run it. It also included obstacles, such as climbing an 8 ft chainlink fence, crawling through two mud-filled culverts, lugging 40-45 lb jugs in each hand, just to name few. You also had to lug all your gear, including rifle, pistol, ammo, mags, water, etc., meaning you were already weighed down by 15-25 lbs of gear.

Anyway, there were a few women competing at the event, and they did very well, both at the shooting stages and the run.
 
just a reminder, ibu world cup biathlon is in full swing. just finished watching the men's pursuit race, watched the women's pursuit earlier today. still amazed that the women shoot as well as, or better than, the men. don't know any other sport where women are better than men, even up.

murf

It's about heart rate management. The best women will not ski as fast as the best men, but the best women will get their heart rate down faster at each shooting station than the best men, allowing them to shoot better. Fit women will, generally, lower their heart rate from exercise more rapidly than equally fit men.
 
I'm actually scheduled to go to the IBU event in Midway Utah in February. It will be the first time I've watched biathlon in person.
nice! i keep thinking about it, as slc is only six hundred miles away, but probably won't happen. i'll just have to wait till i can see it on youtube.

murf
 
Ummm, maybe I'm not the one who should tell you this, but that post is quite sexist. And you are wrong, actually - tennis, shooting, archery, or fencing are just a small example of sports where woman can and do compete equal or better compared to men.

There are lots of different possible meanings of when "woman can compete equal to men." One standard would be when the best women are as good as the worst men, such that at least some women will beat some men. That's a standard that is met by basically everything. The best women's powerlifter is many, many times stronger than the weakest 98 year old man in a coma!

Another standard would be where the best women are able to beat the majority of men who engage in a sport. So, for example, would the best woman's baseball player (currently) be better than most men? This one is heavily dependent on how you draw the boundaries of the men who count for this. If we include 5 year old t-ball players, the answer is easily yes. If we limit the population of men to MLB rosters, the answer is certainly no. I think it's most sensible to draw the line around "serious competitors." For some sports, that's going to mean pros or scholarship college athletes. For some others, it's going to be the amateurs who go to national or world championship meets/matches.

A third, yet-more-stringent standard would require a woman to have been seriously competitive for a gender/sex-unresricted championship. It may not have happened yet, but it has come close to happening and, given enough time, it is inevitable; if the current best woman were to go head-to-head against the current best man, there is a decent amount of doubt as to the outcome. This is a pretty tough standard and not many sports fall here.

A fourth standard would require a woman to have actually prevailed at the highest level of the sport... i.e., been the very best, on a gender/sex-unrestricted basis, in the world (or at least nation).

Another standard would focus less on the exceptional women at the very top and focus more on the average woman competitor, and require a demonstration that the average woman competitor is about as good, in terms of results/measured outcomes, as the average man (under identical playing circumstances). This is a really tough standard for athletics - although it's pretty commonly true for most non-physical/athletic professions and other pursuits these days!

I think that some forms of shooting games might pass most or all of these standards; the last one might be tough, but that's probably because of a big skew in how many women come into these sports at all versus men.

I am skpetical that tennis meets anything past the second, and even that gives me some doubt. A few years ago, the 203rd-ranked men's tennis player beat both Williams sisters pretty decisively in a single day. https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html The Williams sisters are phenomenal athletes and should be sources of inspiration to anyone who looks to athletes for motivation... but they would not be seriously competitive with the majority of the guys on the big tennis tour(s). Golf is probably slightly more equal, with a few instances of women in men's tournaments being able to hold their own and beat many of the men in the field.... but nowhere close to winning outright or being as good as the best men players playing well. Car racing seems like it probably passes the 3rd, and might also eventually pass the broader population-based (as opposed to best-individual-based) test, and perhaps the 4th.

I think this is all kind of interesting. I have a daughter and not a son... so I spend a lot more time than I used to paying attention to women's athletics! I enjoy them on their own merits. It's interesting to note what is different between the sexes' games, and what is common between them. In any game where strength is applied by the athlete, you start to see differences. I recently listened to an interview with Jessie Harrison (nee Duff), the pro shooter for Taurus. She's an exceptional shooter, and beats a heck of a lot of male shooters in every match she enters. She specifically said that her recoil control is not going to be the same as that of a top male shooter just because of strength and mass differences.

I don't think it's sexist to recognize some of the inherent strength, musculature, and skeletal differences between men and women. In fact, it's essential to creating viable opportunities for girls and women to have meaningful opportunities to athletically compete (and get all the benefits that come from athletic competition) that we refrain from physically-unrealistic proclamations that they can or should expect to be able to compete in precisely the same way and with precisely the same outcomes as men in any strength-influenced event (just as we don't expect 120 pound boxers to go toe-to-toe with 200+ heavyweights of similar skill levels on a serious and ongoing basis).

That said, it makes the games where women really can do it at truly the same level as men all the cooler, IMO.
 
Dave, how did you had the patience to write all of this?!? ;) The post was not intended to be sexist, but this part: "still amazed that the women shoot as well as, or better than, the men." is actually quite ignorant and can be counted as such (sexist). I mean - we do live in the 21 century after all, not in the 1900's... To see what I mean, try to say it a little bit differently, like: "I'm still amazed that women can drive cars as well, or better than men.". Try it in a mixed company, see the results, duck behind cover... :D
 
Dave, how did you had the patience to write all of this?!? ;)

LOL! As I said, this is a topic of interest to me and one that I've discussed (not on THR) at length before.

I see your point about the OP's phrasing, but it is fair to acknowledge that, when it comes to physical competition, it is a rare game/sport/contest where, truly, women and men perform similarly. I say that as someone who is a pretty thorough-going proponent of what used to be called feminism (I'm increasingly unclear on what the heck people currently mean by that word).

This whole area of discussion is getting pretty interesting and important again as we thrash through how to deal with transgender athletes - trying to be kind to the transgendered and preserving a sphere in which biological women and girls can compete with each other are both valid goals that a lot of sports are struggling to reconcile right now. I think having some clear, realistic thinking about what ways biologically-male and -female competitors are and are not equally-situated is essential to making rational decisions about that.
 
still amazed that the women shoot as well as, or better than, the men.

I have seen it so many times I often expect it. If it is a man that has learned incorrect techniques and just can’t seem to “reset” vs a girl or woman that is taught correctly right from the start, even if they were not, they seem to correct quicker. I don’t have large samples of either though.
 
Any sport that relies on skills, not just physical strength, can be a mixed-sex event I think. About the shooting - I found that quotation from Wikipedia rather interesting, as I'm not into sports and don't really follow them: "Similarly, shooting at the Summer Olympics continued on a mixed basis in several events from 1968 to 1992, before competitors were restricted by sex.". Maybe Dave can shed some light on the subject - which disciplines, which Olympics and etc.

P.S. Seeing the 5.2 feet ( and quite beautiful, if I may add) Amber Hill shoot at Skeet competitions, I have no doubt that in a mixed-sex race she would kick some serious (male) a.es. :) Did I mention also that she is quite attractive? Just wanted to make sure...

P.P.S. And the Amber line of 12 ga. ammo from Eley (Well, of course it's pink!) is quite enjoyable to shoot and also a great tester for masculinity... :D
 
There were some (I think) federal 12 ga target cheapies that we bought on the way out to SD this year for pheasant opener that were pink as well. (Breast cancer awareness)
 
Any sport that relies on skills, not just physical strength, can be a mixed-sex event I think. About the shooting - I found that quotation from Wikipedia rather interesting, as I'm not into sports and don't really follow them: "Similarly, shooting at the Summer Olympics continued on a mixed basis in several events from 1968 to 1992, before competitors were restricted by sex.". Maybe Dave can shed some light on the subject - which disciplines, which Olympics and etc.

Most sports are a mix of skill and strength (often, the skill is in the application of strength).

I did not know, but based on wikipedia, it appears that the last year of sex-unrestricted/combined shooting events in the Olympics (1992), a woman from China won the skeet gold medal! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics That's pretty impressive.

I will say that in the shooting sport that I most often play (USPSA), there is some advantage to strength and speed afoot, so men on average have an advantage. But I have certainly been whipped many, many, many times by women (and was again this last Tuesday), so it's a sport where the bell curves of both sexes have a lot of overlap. And there are a handful of women in the world who are at least competitive on a national/international level. I think that sport handles it well. Men and women shoot the same courses of fire, have pretty much all the same rules (a couple of minor concessions to skeletal anatomy on gear/belt location issues, but otherwise gender-neutral), and are scored together. So they compete head-to-head. However, matches also recognize "lady" shooters as a category (and "senior" and "super senior" and "law enforcement" and "military," too), so someone can win "high lady" when there are men who finish ahead of them. It's kind of the best of both worlds, IMO.
 
I used to do summer biathlon: 2 k run then shoot 5 offhand, 2 k run then shoot 5 prone, 1k sprint (For a 5k, they would double the distances for the 10k).

Everyone had an assigned lane, your unloaded rifle stayed action-open in a cradle while you ran with the magazines sitting next to it. Run in, go to your station, pick up gun, load and shoot your 5. Then drop mag, leave action open, put rifle in cradle, run the next loop, repeat, etc.

My rifle was a borrowed Marlin biathlon rifle, one of the blue stocked ones. I didn’t have the nearly 500 bucks back then for a new one... and a Feinwerkbau or Anschutz was out of the question!!! I did fairly well, but when the knees started hurting I quit distance running.

And yes, I was outshot by a female shooter in my last race in a final high-score tiebreaker for a CASE of Eley TenX, she beat me 9-10.... so I have no doubt in my mind women can be just as good (and better!) behind a trigger as men. :thumbup:

Stay safe!
 
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