Biggest recent flop? I nominate the Sig P250

[PabloJ]

Anything Remington has potential to flop anymore, they even managed to mess up the legendary 870 over the last couple of years. The ruger American and px4 don’t sell well but they are both good pistols that for whatever reason don’t compete as well as others in their genre. I have to disagree with the usp statement, while expensive it really is a tough gun to beat for reliability and durability. Besides the price tag, heavy da trigger pull and blocky appearance it definitely earned its great reputation. It is not my favorite gun but I would definitely take a usp over a lot of other guns that sell well to this day. There just aren’t many handguns one can say is leaps and bounds above a usp as a fighting pistol.

Yes, some older 870 Express guns had rough chambers giving extraction problems with pathetically cheap shell hulls we are stuck with now, but Remington figured correcting the problem was less expensive than having people send their guns in to be serviced. It is all good now and one buying a new Remington doesn't have much to worry about. One can only hope that other companies notably Storm und Bugger get a hint.

 

[Hokkmike]

Shot a Sig-250. Very much liked it. One of the secrets to accuracy is to treat the long (buttery smooth) trigger as if it were a two-stage trigger. I liked the looks, feel, and accuracy of the gun. Alas, here goes my credibility, I have turned in to a Glock snob.

 

[FL-NC]

They are a pretty terrible handgun. It seems that they were designed with the incompetent mall security guard in mind. We had a few at the shop I 'smithed at. We ended up using them for raffles, incentives, and the like just to get rid of them.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Doesn't have to be a bad gun to be a flop. Being a flop is about not selling not quality. Arguably S&W gen 3s were a flop. They were supposed to be Glock killers and were instead slain by the dragon. Those were some pretty good guns.

 

[Riomouse911]

The R 51 is by far a bigger flop, neither the first attempt or the reboot version worked.

I agree with the overrated H&K USP. I bought one when they first came out in .45. Mushy trigger, clumsy feel. I sold it for full price shortly after I bought it and bought a ticket to fly to England for a vacation.

 

[bannockburn]

Riomouse

Got to concur with your assessment of the HK USP. Had one in .40 and while it was well made and reliable the trigger was just so-so and seemed to be a lot larger than it needed to be. The ergonomics weren't the greatest and overall it felt somewhat awkward and like a block in my hand. Wouldn't go so far as to call it a flop; like the SIG P250 it just didn't do anything for me.

 

[Tallball]

My FiL has one. I have shot it dozens of times. There is nothing wrong with it. It is a medium-sized 9mm SAO pistol. Its trigger pull is long but smooth. I shoot it well. If that is what you want, it is a very good pistol. If not, don't buy one.

 

[cc-hangfire]

I submit the FMK. Like the Honor Guard mentioned earlier, it’s not a bad gun - a friend has one and its a fine gun - but no one is gonna build a better Glock than Glock. I pull for the American gunmakers, the little guys, the startups, but they have to battle the behemoths who have mastered their designs, production & marketing. In 20 years, I fear that FMK & Honor Guard will be footnotes in the history of gunmaking.

And I’m one of those oddballs who love the P250. I dry fired mine yesterday along with my Kahr CW9 - the triggers aren’t much different. The Kahrs are praised and the P250’s are cursed. But you haters keep on hating ... ... it just leaves more for me and keeps the prices lower!!!

 

[Tommygunn]

The R 51 is by far a bigger flop, neither the first attempt or the reboot version worked.....

I have a version 2.0 of the R51. It works fine.

 

[VoodooMountain]

I have a version 2.0 of the R51. It works fine.

I think the flop part derives from the fact that Remington couldn't even make a modern re-issue of their own gun with modern tech and materials.

In fact it was a sad and pathetic attempt if I'm honest.

The re-re-release is also plagued with issues but not anything like the last go around.

 

[1KPerDay]

250 is a very nice shooting pistol. Buttery smooth, light DA trigger. For those of us who like that sort of thing. If you prefer a crunchy, stagy, spongy Glock trigger, more power to you.

 

[sugerwater]

The Curve

 

[Tommygunn]

I think the flop part derives from the fact that Remington couldn't even make a modern re-issue of their own gun with modern tech and materials.

In fact it was a sad and pathetic attempt if I'm honest.

The re-re-release is also plagued with issues but not anything like the last go around.

I'd be tempted to argue....but it would probably mean getting into semantic debates on the meaning of "plagued." IMHO, that is a bit of hyperbole.
Internet posts usually reflect an abnormally high rate of buyers discontented with their purchases while those who like them simply go about their lives.
I don't doubt some 2.0 versions had problems. Maybe I was lucky. My 1.0 version actually did work, but I was concerned about the nearly universal short chamber problem they seemed cursed with. There's no doubt the interior workmanship on my 2.0 R51 is far better than the original.
Other owners of th 2.0 may have had different experiences ... I can't say.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

The Curve

I wounder if any one ever bought one and will admit it

 

[Jenrick]

Well I think this also depends on our definition of a flop. Commercial lack of success or the people around us agree with our dislike. The USP is absolutely a commercial success in multiple countries it was/is the standard service pistol for police/military. It had quite a following here in the US in LE as well, I carried a USP in .45, and either SA or LEM that gun was a tack driver (my hands are too small to shoot an HK DA trigger well).

The 250 was going to be the next being thing for LE as it allowed for 1 firearms purchase, and all the rest doesn't take any more paper work then paper clips. Allow detectives to carry compacts, UC guys subcompacts, the tac team long slides. Let everyone carry their favorite caliber even if you're that accommodating. I learned to shoot on a glock, and felt that the 250's trigger was like a cap gun you had as a kid. I LOVED it, but I get it wasn't everyone's cup of tea. The big issue I saw with it, was the caliber conversions didn't work. A buddy had one in 9 and we spent an entire summer trying to make it run in .45. It was supposed to be just drop the trigger module in the new kit and off you go. Never worked. However they sold well enough to make the 320 with the same concept a thing.

I wouldn't call the 250 a flop, so much as a less successful then hoped design.

-Jenrick

 

[JR24]

I'd go with the Curve too.

Isn't the P250 still issued in like... Hong Kong or something for their police?

I had a 250 and liked it fine, bought it for a song (with 9mm and .40 slide) and ended up trading for a Gen 4 Glock 21.

My 1 complaint was not the long trigger pull, but the long reset that I occasionally short stroked during strings, which made me wary about carrying it.

Apart from that it was accurate and reliable, carried and shot well.

 

[jjones45]

I totally forgot about the curve, still the R51 has it beat though. I remember several YouTube gun channels saying they were pleasantly surprised when they shot the curve because it was a gun they expected to hate. Then oddly enough non of them did any real reviews on it or anything. It’s almost as if it never existed

 

[hemiram]

It would have to be the R51, what a dud. I hear the new version isn't as bad, but the first was just a bad joke. The Caracal is a close runner up. I have shot a P250 subcompact a friend has and it's been great as far as function and accuracy goes. Lousy DAO trigger, but for a little gun, it could be much worse.

 

[zaitcev]

The biggest gripe from sig fans was the long dao trigger pull, but strangely enough nobody really complains about Kahr pistols and they are the king of long dao semiauto’s.

I shot both and P250 feels like it has a longer trigger travel than a comparable Kahr (e.g. not their little .380 platform), although I admit it never occurred to me to actually measure the travel in inches. I also feel that HK USP with LEM has a travel just as long as P250, maybe even longer. However, its trigger guard is bigger and probably the trigger reach is longer too. Plus it's much lighter. As a result it's very easy (for some people) to grab P250 and not being able to complete the pull for the shot, but on an HK LEM gun you pretty much always have an option of pulling to the end. Same goes for Kahr. One other gun that gave me a similar trouble was P290. But by that time I was smarter and quickly used my weak hand's trigger finger to help.

Update: Mssrs. gc70 and 1kPerDay say in other comments that trigger of USP is heavy and the one of P250 is light. Just goes to tell you that all hands are different.

 

[gc70]

Update: Mssrs. gc70 and 1kPerDay say in other comments that trigger of USP is heavy and the one of P250 is light. Just goes to tell you that all hands are different.

HK has several varieties of triggers. DA/SA is typically 10+/4.5 lbs. True DAO is 10+ lbs. Depending on the springs used, "heavy" LEM is 7.5-8.0 lbs. and "light" LEM is 4.5-5.0 lbs. (both with the hammer pre-cocked). And there have been variations in trigger weight and travel by model and over time.

IMO, one notable difference is that pre-cocked HK LEM triggers have a long and very light take-up before reaching a short actual trigger pull and an equally short reset. The P250 trigger pull is the same 5.5-6.5 lb. weight throughout its entire long travel and it has an equally long reset.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Recent flop?

I am old enough that "recent flop" includes the Tround automatic revolver and the Gyrojet pistol and carbine.