Black powder guns and lethality/power.

[Sharpie443]

I've always been interested in early firearms and their use and I own quite a few black powder firearms myself. So I'm always surprised to see the myths that pop up about these guns.

I keeps seeing people perpetuating the myth that black powder guns were weak and inaccurate. Now i can deal with the inaccurate comments because it's a relative term and depends on what we are talking about. However the idea that they are/were weak is ridiculous.

I've seen it even said by people with no experience with these firearms that they were barley lethal. I recently watch a video where the speaker claimed that there were cases where round balls bounced off peoples great coats in the Crimean war. This never happened but I've run into a number of modern shooters that seem to have this idea as well. I think Hollywood might be to blame a bit.

So I made a vidio in response talking about some of the ballistics, the history and do a bit of live fire testing. I used a 1 inch pine board and about 3/4 inch of cloth to test the power. The US military found that it takes 59 FT-LBS of energy to pierce a 1" pine board which was their minimum force required for a firearm to be reliably lethal.

Thought some of you might enjoy it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p7_Hgs5oxQ

 

[72coupe]

If a bullet bounced of it I would consider it a GREAT coat.

 

[yugorpk]

Ive run MANY loads through my stack of BP revolvers that exceeded 700 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. In one side of a tree and out the other.

 

[Crawdad1]

Sharpie443, Great video and excellent information. Thanks for posting.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Well, the spin doctors are indeed out there. Even some who have experience with black powder arms spout idiotic things. The History channel had a thing about an expert shooting a brown bess. The guy had trouble hitting a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood at 50 yds. I know guys who can shoot 4 inch groups with theirs at that distance.

As for balls bouncing off great coats. Yes and no. Was the powder damp, or the charge otherwise compromised. Was the ball falling from a steep angle as opposed to being fired point blank. I have seen 38 Special bullets hit windshields and riccochet but not break through.

Did Billy Dixon really shoot that Indian off the horse at Adobe Walls, or as Quanna Parker later said, the bullet riccocheted off a rock and struck the brave in the leg, not even knocking him down?

I have shot enough black powder to know that nearly every rule has an exception, and truth often sounds like mentally deranged fiction. People will seize on the least little thread of lint if it supports their side, however ignorantly and irrationally linked.

I myself have shot 5 shot groups that could be covered with a 50 cent piece at 100 yds. (with metallic sights from a 45 caliber muzzleloader. ) I have seen people light matches with muzzle loaders at 20 yds. Something I will likely never be able to do.

One of the black powder writers, who was sponsored by in-line interests made a big deal about round balls being ineffectual and inhumane for hunting. There is some truth to the fact that air resistance slows small caliber balls to the point of being too anemic at 100 yrds. But it is also true that a slow moving 69 caliber ball can bowl over a deer at 100 yards.

Some states have a minimum caliber for deer hunting. PA has a minimum muzzle loader caliber for deer hunting. However, the stats show that the average range for a shot at deer in PA is 30 yds. A 45 caliber ball is perfectly adequate to do the job. Perhaps not so out on the wide open western plains where a 200 yd shot might be considered average.

I was once shooting my flintlock at 100 yds offhand and minding my own business. A few tables away was an elderly acquaintance/gun smith. A 30 something guy showed up and took a brand new rifle out of a box and proceeded to fire a dozen shots down range. He fetches the target back to show his buddies. He can't help making a remark about his gun's accuracy vs mine. The old timer says buddy, put yur money where your mouth is. And next thing I know, he and I are in a bet with the guy and his new rifle. 5 shots at clean targets at 100 yds. I am to shoot first. I load up and shoot offhand at my target. 2 inches out of the x ring. The guy starts laughing and sits down to sight his shot. The old timer interrupts the guy and says oh no. Take off the scope and stand up. Shoot it like a man. High power's buddies are laughing their butts off. Yep, take off the scope and stand up. The guy was so angry, he threw the gun in the trunk and drove off, barely stopping for his buddies. The old timer just winked as he picked up the guy's $20 wager and handed me a ten.

Or just show up at a crowded range and pull out your muzzle loader. Shoot a few rounds and then let them see the results.

Also many years ago, I learned a lesson is how weak the guns can be. I attended a muzzle loader silhouette match near Shippensburg pa. The pigs at 200 yards were impossible to knock over with a 45 caliber gun. The pigs would sway and twist but never fall over. I switched to a 54 caliber gun and with the same powder charge dropped those steel pigs shot after shot. Same powder and shorter barrel. but more knockdown power out where it counts.

 

[Sharpie443]

How are you getting that kind of power out of a BP revolver? With Remington I can only get .38 special levels of power out of it ~250ft-LBS. are you using a dragoon or walker pistol? I might be able to get those numbers with my heavy dragoon pistol but that's .54 caliber. Just interested. I hunt coyotes with my Remington so more power would be nice.

 

[Sharpie443]

Interesting post. I have a hard time believing that a ball would just France of a person no matter what coat they have on. Even at a steep angle or off a rock. Romans use to use lead bullets in their slings. No powder, no bow, just a pice of rope and leather. Those slings were deadly and they even had to invent a tool to pull the lead bullets out of people. So I have a hard time with these kinds of stories. A chunk of lead dose not have to be moving very fast to be dangerous.

 

[yugorpk]

How are you getting that kind of power out of a BP revolver? With Remington I can only get .38 special levels of power out of it ~250ft-LBS. are you using a dragoon or walker pistol? I might be able to get those numbers with my heavy dragoon pistol but that's .54 caliber. Just interested. I hunt coyotes with my Remington so more power would be nice.

38 to 40 grains of triple 7 with a 142 grain ball or 220 conical will put you in the low 44 mag power level. Might not be the most accurate thing in the world but who cares.

 

[M-Cameron]

i've seen it even said by people with no experience with these firearms that they were barley lethal

There were 3 charges of british soldiers at bunker hill that beg to differ

hell they nearly hunted Buffalo to extinction using only Black powder guns....

chances are, if you get shot with one, your going to suffer similar wounds than if you were shot with a modern firearm....

 

[Crawdad1]

How are you getting that kind of power out of a BP revolver? With Remington I can only get .38 special levels of power out of it ~250ft-LBS.

Out of a Remington??????

What length barrel do you have?

Remmies have big chambers and can swallow a whole lot of powder.

 

[Sharpie443]

I have a full length Remington and I shoot 25 grains of FFF goex with a 142 grain round ball. A 142 grain round ball going ~900ft/s is generating about ~200ft-lbs on energy. Here is the ballistic charts. http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

 

[Pete D.]

power

38 to 40 grains of triple 7 with a 142 grain ball or 220 conical will put you in the low 44 mag power level. Might not be the most accurate thing in the world but who cares.

40 grains of 777 FFFg will push a 143 grain round ball out of a ROA 5.5 inch barrel at 1136fps for 410 ft.lbs.
To get 700 ft lbs you would need to move that ball at nearly 1500 fps. Even using the longer 7.5" ROA is not going to get you 350 fps more velocity (175 fps per inch...nah.)
So....how are you doing this? Maybe a Walker....but then we have 55+ grains of powder.
Pete

 

[Crawdad1]

Well, Ok, but with a Remington you can punch that load up quite a bit and still get GREAT accuracy at 25+++++ yards. But if you have tested YOUR Remington and found it doesn't give great accuracy with bigger charges then I see your point.

 

[damoc]

having recently been shooting the real stuff both in cap and ball and reloading for the .45 colt Im noticing that loading compression makes all the difference between a fire breathing dragon and a sparrow fart.

so i could sure understand how some under power myths get started.

I wonder how it was back in the day civil war or war of independence did the quality of powder available and the ability to load it well make the difference?or were the smaller cal revolvers dependent on a better powder than was available during the war of independence?

 

[Sharpie443]

Well by the war of independence powder was of very good and produced on an industrial scale. However if we go back to the days of match locks muskets and wheel locks around the English civil war and 30 years war it's a different story. At that time they had not invented granulated powder and it was just a Mia of the tree compounds that make up black powder. In very short order those compounds would separate by weight. They often had problems with powder betraying in power depending on how deep it was in the powder barrel. The heavy compounds went to the bottom giving you an inconsistent mix at different levels. The better mixed the powder was the better the quality. This problem was solved as soon as someone figured out that you can wet the powder with a bit of water and stabalize it.

 

[yugorpk]

40 grains of 777 FFFg will push a 143 grain round ball out of a ROA 5.5 inch barrel at 1136fps for 410 ft.lbs.
To get 700 ft lbs you would need to move that ball at nearly 1500 fps. Even using the longer 7.5" ROA is not going to get you 350 fps more velocity (175 fps per inch...nah.)
So....how are you doing this? Maybe a Walker....but then we have 55+ grains of powder.
Pete

Thats what I get for going by memory. Had to dig these up. These are ROA numbers but Remintons are pretty close. Best all around is the 255 Hornady grain .454" bullet.
I chrono everything. Heavier the bullet, the better the burn, the higher the energy.

Highest numbers Ive ever gotten out of triple 7 were from a Reminton 1858 with a conversion cylinder running .45 colt shells with triple 7. It was over 900 ft/lbs. I wont discuss the load as it was over the manufacturer of the cylinders recommendations. Hurt my hand. Won't do it again.


142 grain ball 40 grain T7 1250 FPS avg. tight 15 fps spread. 493 ft lbs

220 grain conical 40 T7 spread all over the place 1189-1328 FPS . Triple 7 does not like being highly compressed. Thats 690-861 ft/lbs same cylinder/same load.

220 grain conical 35 grain T7 1015 fps tight spread. 503 Ft Lbs.

255 grain Hornady with 35 grain T7 tight 17 FPS spread. 1000 FPS average .747 ft/lbBEST ALL AROUND LOAD

335 grain 32 grains T7 is all that would fit in the stock cylinders. 845 FPS. 532 Ft/LBs. Ive run these in my classiballistx cyinder before for 1100 FPS . Thats 900 ft/lbs.

Pyrodex likes to be compressed. For the balls I ran a full cylinder of poder and rammed it down with the ball

142 grain ball full cylinder pyro. very tight spread under 15 fps . 1230 fps for 470 Ft/Lbs

220 grain conical 40 grain pyro 925 fps. very tight spread. 417 ft lbs.

255 grain bullet 38 grain pyro 875 fps 433 ft lbs

 

[Sharpie443]

You have to be getting close to max pressures with those conical 200+ grain bullets and T7. I don't tell people what to do or how to do it but that's no within my safety zone. I've seen what happens when people try to hotrod black powder guns. You can play with compression and loads but sticking a big heavy bullet over a full chamber of t7 would make me a bit uneasy.

 

[yugorpk]

I stuff'em full. Have for decades. Especially the ROA's. You can't pour too much powder in those.I wouldnt hot rod my 1848 Colt ( real one ) but anything with modern steel and a top strap is going to get a full charge of Triple 7. Ive got one Pietta 1858 Ive been abusing for 30 years that I bought for $78 new at the Rod and Gun in Darmstadt Germany that just got passed on to my son for him to abuse.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Don't dismiss the lethality of black powder firearms

Sharpie - I enjoyed your video. Please show that powder horn that was over your right shoulder.

Pine board penetration was the test used back in the 19th Century. Even the testing of the C96 Broomhandle Mauser was against pine boards.

Accuracy depends on whether the man is a marksman or just a soldier with a smoothbore musket. Even if the firearm is smoothbore, it is capable of accuracy within a reasonable distance. Lawrence Babits (See Devil of a Whipping) hit a man sized target at seventy-five yards distance five out of six times. The longest range hit I'm aware of with a smoothbore is 150 yards and luck certainly had a lot to play in it. As for round ball rifles, Walter Cline proved an incident in the Siege of Fort Miegs where one Kentucky rifleman hit an Indian at 600 yards distance. Cline used a 53 caliber round ball gun and attained a 40% hit ratio. You can read about it in his book, Muzzleloading Then and Now.

The advent of the minie ball may 500 yard shots possible for a soldier who practiced. The British Enfield rifle were better that other minie guns and in the right hands could hit man sized oubjects at 800 yards. Special target rifles could reach out further and two Union soldiers on Morris Island (near Charleston, SC) were hit from shots fired by a Whitworth armed Confederate sharpshooter stationed at Fort Sumter (about 1400 yards). See chapter 11 of my book (Sharpshooters: 1750-1900). BTW, the British tested their Whitworth at 1880 yards against a 2 x 32 oak target. This represents the chests of a detail of men standing shoulder to shoulder. They not only hit it but the bolts penetrated rather deeply into the oak.

As for spent balls, that can happen and soldiers write of being struck with the ball bouncing off of them. Dirty and fouled bores, poor powder (or powder exposed to moisture), partially loaded guns (and perhaps the will of God) all played a role in those balls lacking the energy to kill or seriously injure a man.

Zimmerstutzen: loved that story of yours. "Take the scope off and stand up and shoot like a man."

 

[yugorpk]

I wonder how many of those balls that bounced off soldier "B" went through soldier "A" first.

 

[Pete D.]

I stuff'em full. Have for decades. Especially the ROA's. You can't pour too much powder in those.I wouldnt hot rod my 1848 Colt ( real one ) but anything with modern steel and a top strap is going to get a full charge of Triple 7. Ive got one Pietta 1858 Ive been abusing for 30 years that I bought for $78 new at the Rod and Gun in Darmstadt Germany that

Triple Seven was introduced in 2001/2002. What did you use before that?
Pete

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Tell the millions upon millions of soldiers and others who were killed or had near fatal wounds for 500 years that the black powder firearms that were used are weak. Also all all the animals that were killed for food or that were collateral loses in the almost constant warfare of the same era.

 

[Sharpie443]

Sharpie - I enjoyed your video. Please show that powder horn that was over your shoulder "

That's actually a bag that I shoot out of.

My powder horn is pretty uninteresting at the moment. It's just a track of the wolf generic horn with some leather straps. I'm actually working on decorating it in silver. I'm not sure that is historical but I'm using it as an excuse to learn a little silver smithing.

However that horn is for my rifles. I actually use a brass flask for pistols. Id like to get a more historical flask but those are big money and I'm saving up for a fowler kit and blunderbuss kit. Those two are going to run me about $2000.

That on top of buying two more bee hives this spring and some more beekeeping equipment is going to tie up a lot of cash.

 

[TruthTellers]

The only black powder guns I would consider weak would be all the .31 caliber handguns and all .36 caliber handguns firing round ball. Even then, those bullets can go right through a person and if it's a heart, brain, or lung shot, they're dead.

IMO, any .44 is still powerful enough today to be worthy of a look as a defensive gun for those who may not be able to purchase a modern handgun.

As for long guns, a Brown Bess throwing a .75" round ball is absolutely devastating if you get hit by it. Of course, accuracy is horrible over 50 yards. Any muzzleloading BP rifle is going to be an accurate firearm so long as one practices with it. Load it with a Hornady Great Plains bullet expanding bullet and it's as deadly as a modern .454 or .500 magnum.

So, there's no truth to black powder guns being weak or inaccurate. All it takes is using the appropriate materials and practice.

 

[yugorpk]

Triple Seven was introduced in 2001/2002. What did you use before that?
Pete

Those were the bad old days. Used black powder back then. Hated the stuff.