chain fires and black powder loads

[fishblade2]

I recently acquired a black powder pistol through some trading. I am not sure what it is completely. I know it's a colt replica from CVA. I'll add pictures of it below. I believe it to be a .44 cal as well (not completely sure though). The .44 cal powder loads will be used as the prime example but I'm also asking this in general for all black powder. When asking the company the max load to place in the revolver they said 25 grains. Then duelist1954 on Youtube (a huge black powder lover that knows his stuff) stated his favorite load was 30 grains for the .44 cal. Now when I was asking the company they thought I was talking about black powder substitute and the guy on youtube was using real black powder. Does this make a difference? Is there a load difference like this for all black powder pistols/rifles when using a substitute vs. real black powder?

My other question is about chain fires. Chain fires I know occur when you don't properly lube the chambers but the procedure that people do is different so I was wondering from others who have possible experimented with this, which of these will work. Some people just place lube over the chambers after loading them with the round ball. Some people place wonderwads between the powder and round ball and some people do both of these. My question is which is the correct way? I don't want to waste money on wonderwads and lube if one of the two can be used and that's enough.

Is there anytime in which maybe the power of the load would result in using both for extra safety? If only one of the two can be used and it will be safe from chain fires then which one is more effective at preventing chains (between lube and wonderwads).

My last question is still about chain fires. For a long time I had only seen and read that chain fires were due to improper lubing of the chambers but recently I watched a video where a guy testing different brands of black powder pistols had a chain fire because he added a couple grains more then the gun was apparently able to handle. Can this cause a chain fire? what else can cause a chain fire in pistols?

Because of seeing that the smallest load difference can cause chain firing I was wondering if anyone knew where I could go to get load manuels for black powder rifles/pistols of certain calibers so I know the safe loads for them all. Thanks for all the help!

 

[Slamfire]

My other question is about chain fires. Chain fires I know occur when you don't properly lube the chambers but the procedure that people do is different so I was wondering from others who have possible experimented with this, which of these will work. Some people just place lube over the chambers after loading them with the round ball. Some people place wonderwads between the powder and round ball and some people do both of these. My question is which is the correct way? I don't want to waste money on wonderwads and lube if one of the two can be used and that's enough.

I have used Ox-Yoke wads and I have smeared crisco on the front of the cylinders. After shooting with crisco, my pistol and myself were covered with crisco. It is messy. The Ox-Yoke wads kept the barrel clean, as clean as if it were centerfire.

You have to use wads under each bullet, or grease all the chamber throats.

Is there anytime in which maybe the power of the load would result in using both for extra safety? If only one of the two can be used and it will be safe from chain fires then which one is more effective at preventing chains (between lube and wonderwads).

Heck if I know. I don't think crisco and wads is a bad idea, just takes more time.

Another issue for chain fires is flame getting under the caps. This was something Col Colt addressed in the 1850's in a lecture in England. He designed his pistols to deflect the cylinder gap flash away from the rear of the cylinder.

 

[Foto Joe]

The reality of chain-fires is that lubing over the ball has little to no effect on preventing them. The primary function of lube or lube wads is to do just that, lubricate. It helps keep the Black Powder fouling softer so that it cleans up easier. There are many out there, myself included that from time to time use NO lube whatsoever.

The best way to prevent a chain-fire is to ensure that you are A: using the correct size ball and B: use the correct size cap for the nipples on that particular gun.

An undersized round ball can allow hot gases to get past and ignite the powder below it, as well as the possibility of recoil dislodging the ball. I can see no way in which changing the powder charge could possibly cause a chain-fire.

An improperly sized cap can also allow hot gases to penetrate only this time through the rear. A lot of folks "pinch" their caps to get them to stay on. In "my" opinion this is a great way to find out first hand what a chain-fire feels like. Don't get me wrong, I've pinched my fair share of caps to get them to stay on, but it was only done until I could locate the correct size nipples.

And finally....Chain-fires are extremely rare, you can talk to folks who have tens of thousands of rounds through cap and ball guns and they'll tell you that they've never had one. On the other hand, take and inexperienced shooter who happens to spill powder all over the front of his revolver then load .451's into a gun that really should have .454's and that person might have entirely different results.

As for myself, I've never had one and they never cross my mind. If I should one day get surprised I can take a little comfort in the fact that Sam Colt designed his guns in a way that a chain-fire is usually just a conversation starter, nothing more.

 

[Lightning12]

I started shooting a colt army BP revolver about 3 months ago. I've learned quite a bit and everything goes quicker and easier than my first couple of outings.

I had a chain fire that affected one extra chamber a couple weeks ago. I don't really know what caused it, but it was no big deal. There was no explosion or rupture of the cylider or anything else.

I use 28 gr black powder per chamber with a lubricated felt wad over the powder and a .454 Hornady lead ball. Use no. 10 remington caps. I don't use grease and don't see any advantage to it. I get some minor fouling in my chambers and barrel, but nothing too difficult to clean up. I have read that chain fires are usually the result of a powder trail that leads from the front of the cylinder over to the next chamber. You don't want a lot of sticky residue on the front of your cylinder because the powder will stick to it.

Chaz

 

[BCRider]

I haven't shot as much as the others here. Likely only around 350 to 400 rounds worth of C&B pistol since I got into the whole thing a couple of years ago.

Because much of my own shooting is done at Cowboy Action meets reloading time is a factor. As such I started out not worrying about wads or fillers. My Uberti Remingtons and Navy Arms (older house brand) 1851 and '60 Colts get a 28gn pour (it's what my powder flask measureing tube drops) from the flask and the ball gets swaged into place on top of it.

Chain fires had me rather cautious as well. For the first two or three matches I wore a leather glove on my shooting hand "just in case". But by the time I'd shot my third match with gloves on I felt like I could trust my technique.

The key factor is the fit of the ball as noted already. You want to use a size of ball that shave off a full ring of lead when pressed in. Or if your chamber mouths are flared you want to feel like you're putting a good 15 to 20 lbs of effort onto the lever to force that ball into place. Anything less means you are risking a less than perfect seal.

I'm basically both cheap and lazy of soul so I've not bothered with either buying lube wads or casting and cutting out my own lube pills to fit behind the ball. But on my Remingtons the ball seats WAY down in the chamber. That would require a bucket load of over top grease. So I've been using a method I found on You Tube that showed a guy simply placing a drop of vegtable oil on the ball to chamber wall joint. The oil wicks around the sharp V joint and seals the ball to chamber joint with a film of oil. The guy claimed to have been using nothing but a drop of cooking oil for many years. The tools and other kit he was using had the look of a long time BP shooter so I felt it was work a try too.

Well, it works. And it works well. To date this is the only system of sealing and lubing that I've used. And it seems to be working since the fouling in the bore stays VERY soft. Dangly spider web like greasy/goopy in fact. And bonus, the Canola oil I've been using for this turns out that it's a darn good fouling dissolver. If/when my cylinders get stiff to rotate a drop of oil worked in at the cylinder pin gap frees them up for the rest of the day. On top of this I recently found out that Canola oil, otherwise known as rape seed oil, was used on some steam engines way back as it protected against corrosion even in the presence of all that steam and water.

Some will say that with the balls set back this far that accuracy could suffer. My Colt clones don't set the ball back that far and they shoot VERY tight groups. The Remingtons I'll need to play with on a practice day to find out what is needed for truly accurate shooting with them. To date it's all been about making big clangs and clouds of smoke...

Run with Pyrodex or 777 if you must. But the most fun comes from using the real thing and knowing that you are seeing and feeling exactly the same thing when you shoot as the folks did in the 1800's. And the real thing isn't THAT hard to find.

And welcome to the magic of Black Powder and rolly balls...

 

[hang fire]

Lawyers forces makers to keep recommended loads low.

I have been shooting BP revolvers for about 50 years and have not had a chain fire take place.

 

[SleazyRider]

... inexperienced shooter who happens to spill powder all over the front of his revolver ...

Thanks, Foto Joe! Though I've never had a chain fire, I should probably pay closer attention to this myself. Excellent post!

 

[ClemBert]

Like Foto Joe said, it's all about having the right sized ball for your chambers and the right cap for the nipples. Smearing lube over the ball, IMHO, is for when you want to lube yourself head-to-toe. Keeping the powder residue soft is easily and more cleanly accomplished with lubed felt wads. If you make them yourself then lubed wads are inexpensive. A lubed wad is likely to "seal" your chambers just as well as over ball lube when you haven't figured out what the right size ball to use to properly seal the chamber. Get the right ball! Get the right cap! Use lubed felt wads!

 

[towboat_er]

I use SG's lube pills.


SG's:
Dang I'm broke Lube Pills

What I did was start out with:
Parafin comes in a brick divided to to 4 like a stick a butter, I used a stick.
Then 1/4 of a Bolwax Toilet Seal Ring(Beeswax)substitute or beeswax or use with the parafin.
Then 8-10 Tablespoons of Olive Oil/soy oil
The Olive oil is the Lube the Waxes just carry it and keep the pill as
you want it.(consistacey/hard or soft...climate time of year)
And that made alot about 600 pills...about 1/8" thick for the most part.
Place the lube mixture in a small saucepan, place the small saucepan in a larger pan with water
boilin' the water and sorta poach the lube mix to a liquid.
level stiff heated pizza pan(or 7-9" heavy pie pan)is the best thing to pour your mix into...
so mix cools evenly(flat) .Place in fridge when it's set stiff(optional)
And worked good for me...you need to try your best guess and add/subract as you like them
for your use.


Punch out to the caliber of your choice, with a tube. Place lube pill over powder with ball

 

[foghornl]

I had it happen ONCE in my CVA "Army Remington". I was shooting quite a bit, grease way flying all over the place, so I decided to skip the 'grease' over the balls. Second shot was immediately followed by the third. EEEEEEEEEEEK!

Not really sure where the chain-fired ball went. Didn't skip the grease after that.

 

[Pancho]

I have to preface my opinion with the old statement "Never say never" but with proper fitting caps and balls there is a very slim chance of chain-fire.
Seating the proper sized ball resulting in lead waste ring gives one confidence that chain fires from the front of the cylinder are rather impossible.
The irritating facts that there are no industry standards for cap sizes or nipples worsens the problems we have to face. Pinching a cap is a lousy substitute for a proper fitting cap. It is common for an oversized cap being pinched to fit will fall off adjacent cylinders increasing the likelihood of chain-fires.
The fact that I've recently learned that an aftermarket nipple manufacturer can and does design and machine their nipples to a given cap manufacturer specs. proves to me that we don't have to put up with the crap we are offered. According to a telephone conversation I had with the designer/machinist at Track of the Wolf they design and machine their nipples using CCI#11 caps as their criteria. To date I've not had a chain-fire nor have I had to pinch an over sized CCI#11, or had to set with a wooden dowel an undersized CCI#11. I've never had a cap fall off.
My first suggestion is to buy aftermarket nipples and talk to the manufacturer about what cap manufacturer they used to design there nipples around. If the sales guy can't answer the question hang up the phone and shop the next.
As for original equiptment. I would collect varies sizes of varies manufacturesl
and try them with a small charge or none. A proper fitting cap should slide on stiffly using the various inline cappers requiring a mere snuging with a finger nail. This proper fitting cap should require a small pocket knife to remove a proper fitting cap. If this is
accomplish there is little chance of them falling of due to the recoil of adjacent cylindersl
Lastly, Uberti suggest using .375 round balls in my 1862 'colt Police. I've opt to use .380 ball instead witch result in a larger waste ring,better ball to cylinder fit and a complete elimination of ball creap. I do use a treated felt wad that I believe extends my shooting time. These described methods have kept me chain fire free since 1964.

 

[FreddyKruger]

the amount of powder is up to the shooter. as long as you can seat the projectile low enough then you are pretty right. but then you can be at a point where you are simply wasting powder. my 1858 remington can do 30gr of FFFg but most of it is still burning as it comes out of the end of the barrel.

30gr + filler in my Walker however is pretty right with its massive cylinder and long barrel.

 

[arcticap]

Now when I was asking the company they thought I was talking about black powder substitute and the guy on youtube was using real black powder. Does this make a difference? Is there a load difference like this for all black powder pistols/rifles when using a substitute vs. real black powder?

One reason for different size powder charges is if using the more potent 777 which it's recommended to load 15% less volume.
Another reason is to accommodate for different velocities, for instance between loading Pyrodex RS or BP ffg (rifle powder) verses Pyrodex P or BP fffg (pistol powder). Then adjustments are made to tailor the load for personal preference. For instance, it's recommended to load brass frame revolvers with less powder than steel frame revolvers due to the wear and tear factor.
Heavy powder charges of about 40 grains of powder or more can sometimes cause the hammer to blow back, but generally that's not not an issue that's considered to cause chain fires.

I was wondering if anyone knew where I could go to get load manuels for black powder rifles/pistols of certain calibers so I know the safe loads for them all.

Here's the Traditions Owner's Manual PDF with loading information for Pietta C&B revolvers:

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/BPRevolver_manual.pdf

 

[joecil]

Now I've never had a chain fire nor seen one with cap and ball pistol, however I haven't fired one in about 40 years. However this question brings to mind an interview I saw recently with Clint Eastwood in regards to the Outlaw Josie Wales. He was asked about the movie being period correct and his answer was bit surprising to me.

It seems when he was making the early Italian westerns a prop man took him and other of the cast out to show them how the cap and ball guns worked. Well the prop man had a chain fire hence it bothered Eastwood so all the guns used where conversion units which didn't exist during the Civil War and 3 years after the time period of the Outlaw Josie Wales was set in.

 

[72coupe]

I have had several chain fires. As many as 3 cylinders at once. But the last one I had was in 1968.

 

[samcolt1860]

Now I've never had a chain fire nor seen one with cap and ball pistol, however I haven't fired one in about 40 years. However this question brings to mind an interview I saw recently with Clint Eastwood in regards to the Outlaw Josie Wales. He was asked about the movie being period correct and his answer was bit surprising to me.

It seems when he was making the early Italian westerns a prop man took him and other of the cast out to show them how the cap and ball guns worked. Well the prop man had a chain fire hence it bothered Eastwood so all the guns used where conversion units which didn't exist during the Civil War and 3 years after the time period of the Outlaw Josie Wales was set in.

This so called Eastwood comment seems far fetched. Movie prop guns are loaded with 5 in 1 blanks, no matter what, and the cast was not going to be using C&B blank loads in the movie. They take too long for the prop men to reload and do not fire too well. This was just supposedly a demonstration for the casts enlightenment.

 

[fishblade2]

here is pictures of the black powder pistol: Again I need to know the model and caliber it is before I order parts/supplies for it.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I have had several chain fires. As many as 3 cylinders at once. But the last one I had was in 1968.

72coupe,
I took you message literally for a moment when I first read it and was visualizing 3 complete cylinders chain firing.
I hope you meant 3 chambers.

 

[samcolt1860]

here is pictures of the black powder pistol: Again I need to know the model and caliber it is before I order parts/supplies for it.

Now we are getting somewhere.

It was imported by CVA (Connecticut Valley Arms) and it is .44 caliber. The maker would be Armi San Paolo (out of business). It is an 1860 Colt Army. Use .451-454 lead round balls with about 20 grains of 3fg powder since it is a brass frame you must load it on the light side.

 

[72coupe]

Malachi you are correct, my language was imprecise.

 

[1KPerDay]

..........

 

[FreddyKruger]

fishblade2, its a 1860 Colt Army in .44.

Brass frame, so lighter loads would be a good option.

 

[fishblade2]

what is the maximum amount of gunpowder for this gun and still be safe? I have heard 25 grains and also up to 30 grains but since it's a brass I don't know if 30 would be safe out of it.

 

[samcolt1860]

fishblade2, its a 1860 Colt Army in .44.

Brass frame, so lighter loads would be a good option.

Read post #19! Ata way to step on someone.

 

[samcolt1860]

what is the maximum amount of gunpowder for this gun and still be safe? I have heard 25 grains and also up to 30 grains but since it's a brass I don't know if 30 would be safe out of it.

Same goes for you.

Read post #19! Ata way to step on someone.