chain fires and black powder loads

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BC Rider,

I was extremely interested in your comment about the vegetable oil. Is there any way that you could find and send me a link of that video you watched? I might have to result to this before I can do my own lubed wads.. also you may of explained this somewhat in your previous statement but does this method shorten your shooting time on the range before having to clean the gun some?
 
That's actually a nice looking brass 1860. I would recommend that the powder loads be kept between 15 and 20 grains with a filler such as cornmeal to take up the extra space in the chamber. You'll still get plenty of smoke and BOOM and if the gun hasn't already been mistreated it will last a very long time with those loads. I load my brass Navy with 16gr 3f and 20gr cornmeal and it is arguably my favorite shooter.
 
fishblade2 said:
If I shot 25 grains out of it would it damage the brass revolver?
Click to expand...

Not on the first shot and maybe not on the tenth but you WILL destroy the gun sooner rather than later with anything except light loads. Keep it below 20gr, you'll never even feel the difference but your brass gun will.
 
okay so less than 20 grains of gun powder but I also saw that i could add 20 grains of cornmeal along with this to fill space. If I use cornmeal do I place the wonder wad between the powder and cornmeal or on top of the powder and cornmeal?

If I used less than 20 grains of powder and don't fill the space I realize the ball will be seated much lower in the cylinder but couldn't that affect the accuracy?

On average how deep or shallow should the ball be from the opening of the cylinder?
 
If you're going to use a lubed wad it goes as follows: powder, cornmeal, wad then ball.

The problem isn't necessarily the ball being so far down in the chamber, the problem is the possibility of the ball actually not being set down onto the powder. This could result in a pressure issue that "might" damage the gun or the holder of said gun. The filler is 50% there to ensure that there is no airspace between the powder and the ball and 50% there to bring the ball closer to the forcing cone of the barrel.
 
you guys have been so helpful and I just wanted to say thank you for this. I do have a few more questions. In a brass .36 caliber gun normally I see people use around 22 grains in a steel frame but how much should be used in a brass frame? How much cornmeal do you usually use it?

When using the cornmeal what if i put too much and with the ball seated all the way down it doesn't come flush to the chamber? could I safely just shoot the one chamber since I would be experimenting and that would be the only chamber loaded?

With the suggestion of 16 grains of powder and 20 grains of cornmeal is that without a wad taking up space in the cylinder?

Last quick question I had was do you guys use cornmeal in the steel frame revolvers or just the brass frame ones?
 
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1) seating the ball 'flush' with the chamber opening: this is done only to improve accuracy, and there is some debate about whether the majority of us will ever see the reputed improvement. There are no, repeat, no, safety implications involved with seating the ball flush with the opening or further down. If you have too much 'stuff' in the chamber, so that the ball can't be fully seated below the chamber mouth you can still shoot it safely IF you can get the chamber to rotate into battery. That's unlikely, nowever, as the frame clearance is usually too tight to allow that to happen. If you've loaded too much the only recourse is to remove the cylinder from the gun, then remove the nipple from the offending chamber and push the load out the front of the chamber with a wooden or brass dowel.

2) The amount of corn meal necessary (notice I said necessary, as in truly needed) in a .36 cal brass frame is the amount necessary to get the ball to seat with 15 grains of powder loaded. That varies from gun to gun and even sometimes from chamber to chamber. The ONLY reason you need the corn meal is to be sure the ramrod can seat the ball. In some guns, 15 grains of powder is so little that the ramrod runs out of travel before the ball is seated, so corn meal is used to take up that extra space.

3) 15 grains of powder plus 20 grains of corn meal would probably be used when no wad is present, simply due to space reasons.

4) corn meal is used (or not used) in both steel and brass frame guns.
 
what about nickel plated black powder guns? Do they damage or have to take lighter loads such as brass frames?
 
Yes, most of the factory nickel plated revolvers do have a brass frame.
To verify that it's brass and not steel, check it with a magnet.
The nickel plating doesn't make a brass frame revolver any stronger.
 
the thing about using heavier loads on a brass frame is brass is soft and hotter loads will stretch the frame.
20 grains is plenty enough instead of using grease to seal the chamber use parafin or bees wax it is not nearly as messy

get the parafin just hot enough that it is like warm butter then cap off the top of the ball with the paraffin to the top of the cylinder and let it get hard.
I have never had a chain fire doing this. corn meal on top of the powder charge to seat the top of the projectile closer to the top of the cylinder chamber can also help to prevent a chain fire but still top off the chamber with paraffin or bees wax this has two purposes 1 to prevent a chain fire and 2 to lube the bore.
you are more likely to get a chain fire not lubing the top of the ball to the top of the cylinder.

pyrodex is measured by volume not grains IOW 20 grains of pyrodex is a hot load

Read the instructions before using pyrodex. pyrodex also comes with its oen powder measure.
777 is measured grain for grain but also burns hotter than black powder so read up before loading your pistol

after shooting make sure to clean good because black powder and pyrodex is corrosive, 777 is corrosive too but not nearly as corrosive as pyrodex or BP

something you need to check is
cock the hammer and put some pressure to the back of the hammer at full cock the hammer should not fall when putting pressure on the back of the hammer if you can make the hammer engage by putting thumb pressure to the back of the hammer then it is unsafe and should be fixed before firing.
also when cocking the hammer the cylinder should lock in position just before full cock or at least the same time you bring the trigger to full cock.
if the cylinder locks in after the hammer is in the full cock position this indicates the gun to be unsafe and should be fixed before firing.
 
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get the parafin just hot enough that it is like warm butter then cap off the top of the ball with the paraffin to the top of the cylinder and let it get hard.
Click to expand...
That is really inconvenient to do at the range! :rolleyes:
 
The grips look short, like a '51 Navy but the "upper" is typical 1860 Army. Look under the rammer for a maker's logo. I have an ASM ".44cal 1861 Navy" that is steel framed but is an Army upper with Navy grips like yours. I'm gonna guess yours is either and Armi San Marco (ASM or SM) or an Armi San Poualo (Euroarms). The grips don't look Pietta to me.
 
so since pyrodex is closest to BP then I can load it similiar but 777 since it's burns faster would that mean that I need to load less powder vs. real BP?
 
Fishblade,
Yes, You ought to get about the same velocity out of 777 with 15% less volume compared to Pyro & BP. BP & Pyro are pretty equivalent volume for volume (not by weight, Pyro is less dense than BP). 777 is less dense than BP. I put 15 grs by weight of 777 in a 357case. the same volume is about 22grs FFFg BP.
 
Fishblade, sorry but I can't seem to find the right set of keywords to locate that one particular video. There was simply nothing at all miraculous about his whole loading process other than his use of oil instead of one of the varieties of bulky grease. The rest of the info about how it keeps the fouling soft and mucky and works to free up sticking cylinders is from my own findings.
 
I have posted my experience with chain fires many times but-once again.
I have had 4 "chain fires".
In all cases the chamber in front of the barrel "in battery" and the chamber to it's immediate left fired together.
In all cases the cap remained unfired on the fired chamber to the left of the chamber "in battery"
Two instances had ball only, one had ball and lubed wad and one had lube over the ball.

Investigation proved that all had happened for the same reason. Improper alloy in the home cast balls.
Alloy was several grades too hard.
Poor casting procedures caused wrinkles in the balls.
Wrinkles did not swage out on the hard balls leaving a gap for the fire from the fired chamber to sneak into the charge on the next chamber.
Solution. All hard balls were melted and turned into 44-40 rifle bullets.
ONLY dead soft lead should be used for casting roundballs for percussion pistols.
I use lubed wads because of the extra lube seems to keep the gun operating easier over a 60 shot match and it has become a habit.
I do not believe that a gun loaded with proper sized and proper alloy balls needs anything to prevent "chain fires"
Sam Colt said to charge the chambers, press an oversized ball onto the powder, cap and fire. It still works.
 
Noz said:
Improper alloy in the home cast balls.
Alloy was several grades too hard.
Poor casting procedures caused wrinkles in the balls.
Wrinkles did not swage out on the hard balls leaving a gap for the fire from the fired chamber to sneak into the charge on the next chamber.
ONLY dead soft lead should be used for casting roundballs for percussion pistols.
Click to expand...

After all the "Chain-Fire" threads, discussions and dead horse beatings that have taken place on THR on this topic, I don't ever recall hearing this particular causation before. It surely makes pure and simple sense and although it wouldn't apply to someone new to Black Powder unless they were casting their own round balls or using hand cast from a friend. For someone like me who has threatened to cast is own it's just one more reason to make sure I know what I'm doing BEFORE I start doing it, shall we say.

Thanks for putting that out there Noz.
 
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