Black Powder Substitutes and Users Deserve Respect
- Thread starter The Bolt Man
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messerist
Member
My black powder club buys GOEX in 25lb lots. Everyone puts their order in and pays what they owe. We get it from Track of the Wolf. They have a minimum of 25lbs. If you don't have a club nearby maybe you can hook up with fellow shooters at your range and go in together. Sagetown also mentioned Powder Inc. Another great mail order source.
Dlc43
Member
Wow, Long original post.
This one might be close to that long.
I'd say use whatever floats your boat.
I've tried several black powder substitutes and the only one that ever worked was Pyrodex and that requires immediate clean up the same as BP.
It just fouls somewhat less than real black while shooting but is just as corrosive.
Pyrodex doesn't work in flintlocks though.
I tried something called golden powder or something like that once and it was worthless.
I tried another that I think was called clearshot and I literally could see the ball fly downrange out of my black powder revolver.
I'm serious about that.
That stuff was a joke.
I have never seen a BP substitute that didn't require immediate clean up after use but I admit I quit trying substitutes after the Golden and Clearshot misadventures.
As far as clean up I have never used anything other than lukewarm water to clean any of my black powder guns.
Black powder fouling is completely water soluble and doesn't require anything but water to clean up with a light oiling afterwards.
I've never had a single gun rust or have problems with simple water cleanup of Black powder.
I use 3F for everything.
from 32 to 75 caliber brown bess's and load and prime with the same powder.
it works and i don't have to mess with a bunch of different granulation's.
There is only ONE gun I use a substitute black powder on and that is an 1866 Winchester copy in 45 Colt.
I use "P" grade pyrodex in that gun because it fouls less than black powder and develops 1375 FPS out of a 24 inch barrel which is close to 200 FPS faster than I can get using black powder.
I use that gun for deer so I try to squeeze it for all it's worth while keeping the pressure within the SAMMI specs for the brass framed 66.
Other than that one rifle I use regular old 3F in all my other black powder guns.
This one might be close to that long.
I'd say use whatever floats your boat.
I've tried several black powder substitutes and the only one that ever worked was Pyrodex and that requires immediate clean up the same as BP.
It just fouls somewhat less than real black while shooting but is just as corrosive.
Pyrodex doesn't work in flintlocks though.
I tried something called golden powder or something like that once and it was worthless.
I tried another that I think was called clearshot and I literally could see the ball fly downrange out of my black powder revolver.
I'm serious about that.
That stuff was a joke.
I have never seen a BP substitute that didn't require immediate clean up after use but I admit I quit trying substitutes after the Golden and Clearshot misadventures.
As far as clean up I have never used anything other than lukewarm water to clean any of my black powder guns.
Black powder fouling is completely water soluble and doesn't require anything but water to clean up with a light oiling afterwards.
I've never had a single gun rust or have problems with simple water cleanup of Black powder.
I use 3F for everything.
from 32 to 75 caliber brown bess's and load and prime with the same powder.
it works and i don't have to mess with a bunch of different granulation's.
There is only ONE gun I use a substitute black powder on and that is an 1866 Winchester copy in 45 Colt.
I use "P" grade pyrodex in that gun because it fouls less than black powder and develops 1375 FPS out of a 24 inch barrel which is close to 200 FPS faster than I can get using black powder.
I use that gun for deer so I try to squeeze it for all it's worth while keeping the pressure within the SAMMI specs for the brass framed 66.
Other than that one rifle I use regular old 3F in all my other black powder guns.
Shoey and Matt, salvation is nearby.
Bill's Sporting Goods in the little town of Lomira, WI stocks Goex black powder.
http://www.billssportlomira.com/
I know because this particular Cheddarhead drives from Token Creek to Lomira every now and then to buy it from him, usually 5-10lbs at a time.
It's not like I can get it at Gander Mountain or Cabelas...
Bill's Sporting Goods in the little town of Lomira, WI stocks Goex black powder.
http://www.billssportlomira.com/
I know because this particular Cheddarhead drives from Token Creek to Lomira every now and then to buy it from him, usually 5-10lbs at a time.
It's not like I can get it at Gander Mountain or Cabelas...
shoey
Member
Boy, I even stopped at Midwest last time I was through Lomira and asked them. And of course they didnt say anthing to this effect. oh well, thanks for the info!
Smokin_Gun
Member
Mr. The Bolt Man, sorry to pop your bubble but I got thru the first paragraph and it was all I could read...you are either venting and whining or lookin' for an argument on BP verses subBP...
You must be fishin' or you have not shot enough Black powder or Pyrodex to dirty your fingernails...
I was thinkin' maybe you wrote books, like fiction or fairy tales...
Good luck reguardless!
Let the Subs show a reason for more respect, it ain't the shooters that use it it's the line fed to them by the substitutes.
If used with the right components for lubrication a Rev using Black Powder will shoot all day for you.
Anyone too lazy to try it will never know and fall on the fallacy that subs all foul less and clean up eazier.
I don't poke fun at Substitute powders, but when it's put to me this way I tell it like it is.
You must be fishin' or you have not shot enough Black powder or Pyrodex to dirty your fingernails...
I was thinkin' maybe you wrote books, like fiction or fairy tales...
Good luck reguardless!
Let the Subs show a reason for more respect, it ain't the shooters that use it it's the line fed to them by the substitutes.
If used with the right components for lubrication a Rev using Black Powder will shoot all day for you.
Anyone too lazy to try it will never know and fall on the fallacy that subs all foul less and clean up eazier.
I don't poke fun at Substitute powders, but when it's put to me this way I tell it like it is.
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Matt-J2
Member
Thanks Gewehr98, I'll have to stop in there next time I'm down that way. 
Ginormous
Member
Perhaps a state by state list/database of gun shops known to stock black powder is in order? I know it would have been extremely beneficial to me to know where to go to get my instant fix of Goex and BP accessories when I first went on the great search. Much gas could have been saved, lowering my total carbon footprint. 
This is probably not the thread for it, but if someone has the wherewithal (a la the Walker Club) to put something together, I can offer up a fine shop in Northern Georgia (Atlanta area) that carries BP accessories and stocks Goex BP in granulations from 1F to 4F:
Deercreek Gun Shop*
280 S Fairground St SE
Marietta, GA 30060
(770) 425-5060
Anyone have any thoughts on doing this?
This is probably not the thread for it, but if someone has the wherewithal (a la the Walker Club) to put something together, I can offer up a fine shop in Northern Georgia (Atlanta area) that carries BP accessories and stocks Goex BP in granulations from 1F to 4F:
Deercreek Gun Shop*
280 S Fairground St SE
Marietta, GA 30060
(770) 425-5060
Anyone have any thoughts on doing this?
Smokin_Gun
Member
Yeah all one has to do is type Powder Inc. in search here and you'll see how many times i may have posted it.
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Ginormous
Member
I believe it's in our common good to take notice of and patronize those gun shops that still attempt to stock items like BP. These shops have to undergo additional scrutiny to be able to have the product onsite. The ATF and most states certainly treat it differently than smokeless powders. So yeah, I think they deserve our support, whenever, and wherever we can.
The fewer viable alternative to that exist to procure our raw materials, bodes well for no one, except those that would rather you could not have it at all.
For what it's worth, I got my expensive can of Goex locally, at the store above. And my volumetric measure, and my flask. I am glad I did. Good people servicing a niche group there.
For more serious outings, Marj Graf is my Huckleberrry:
http://www.grafs.com/powders/
The fewer viable alternative to that exist to procure our raw materials, bodes well for no one, except those that would rather you could not have it at all.
For what it's worth, I got my expensive can of Goex locally, at the store above. And my volumetric measure, and my flask. I am glad I did. Good people servicing a niche group there.
For more serious outings, Marj Graf is my Huckleberrry:
http://www.grafs.com/powders/
Umm, guys?
There's a sticky at the top of the Blackpowder Shooting Sub-Forum.
It's called "Black Powder Essentials", and if you click on it, you'll see a thread there, generated by yours truly, that invites all to list their local stocking BP dealers. It went to 3 pages in length as of January 2009.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238769
The thread with the nation-wide list of stocking BP locations:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232905
So, yeah, it's been attempted here at THR already.
There's a sticky at the top of the Blackpowder Shooting Sub-Forum.
It's called "Black Powder Essentials", and if you click on it, you'll see a thread there, generated by yours truly, that invites all to list their local stocking BP dealers. It went to 3 pages in length as of January 2009.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238769
The thread with the nation-wide list of stocking BP locations:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232905
So, yeah, it's been attempted here at THR already.
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Ginormous
Member
Thanks Gewehr98!
I think this list is a great idea. Glad to see it stickied too. Just more reason to go into gun shops I've not visited before!
I think this list is a great idea. Glad to see it stickied too. Just more reason to go into gun shops I've not visited before!
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fordlover35
Member
I only uses Pyrodex. I put over 100 rounds through my Hawken just about every month. The last time I saw the real stuff here for sale it was going for almost $40.00/lb. I just can not afford it. I have had no trouble with Pyrodex. It fires every time. I still go home with black hands and smelling like burnt Pyrodex. I LOVE EVERY MINUTE OF IT!!!!
fordlover35
Member
Yea thats what I thought. There are only three places around me thta deal in it. I pay $14.99/lb for Pyrodex at Gander Mountain. I asked if they stock the real stuff and was told that they dont.
Ginormous
Member
Jeez, talk a getting screwed and not kissed. . .that's ridiculous pricing.
Grafs' makes it a more tolerable at less than $20 when ordered in 5 lb. quantities.
Goes down to a more digestible $16.29 lb in 10 pound lots.
The extra spending cash you'll save comes in handy for the lube you'll need the next time some gun shop tries to spread a li'l luvin'
Grafs' makes it a more tolerable at less than $20 when ordered in 5 lb. quantities.
Goes down to a more digestible $16.29 lb in 10 pound lots.
The extra spending cash you'll save comes in handy for the lube you'll need the next time some gun shop tries to spread a li'l luvin'
The idea that black powder (i.e. potassium nitrate/charcoal/sulphur) is in some way special, proprietary, exclusive, holy or THE preferred pre-20th century propellant is not grounded in fact. Even as early as the 15th century there were black powder substitutes, and by the nineteenth century there was a plethora of black powder alternatives.
One of the more popular varieties was white gun powder (available in a large variety of formulations), which was cleaner and more powerful than the typical black variety. There was also a red gunpowder and a gray, each utilizing different ingredients and manufacturing methods. Some of the more popular black powder alternatives of a hundred and fifty years ago include:
Augendre's white gunpowder;
Hafenegger's gunpowder, available in six different varieties;
Dr. Borlinetto's gunpowder, a very popular white gunpowder
that was even used to load paper cartridges for percussion
revolvers and was used by the South during the Civil War;
Sharp's and Smith's Patent gunpowder;
Spence's Powder;
In addition, there were numerous European proprietary propellants that were rare or unheard of in the US, including one made from sawdust.
Virtually all of the "black powder substitutes" in use today are simply reformulations of old patents, some aren't even altered, made from the same ingredients as they were when first introduced almost two hundred years ago.
I've also ran into shooters who disparage and insult anyone who doesn't use the "Holy Black". But putting down someone who uses Pyrodex, for instance, because it is a "substitute" is like putting down someone who uses HP-38 because it is a "substitute" for Bullseye.
There is nothing special or inherent about black powder, nor is it anymore authentic. It's only in the modern era that black powder has become anything more than simply another way of getting your bullet down the barrel.
One of the more popular varieties was white gun powder (available in a large variety of formulations), which was cleaner and more powerful than the typical black variety. There was also a red gunpowder and a gray, each utilizing different ingredients and manufacturing methods. Some of the more popular black powder alternatives of a hundred and fifty years ago include:
Augendre's white gunpowder;
Hafenegger's gunpowder, available in six different varieties;
Dr. Borlinetto's gunpowder, a very popular white gunpowder
that was even used to load paper cartridges for percussion
revolvers and was used by the South during the Civil War;
Sharp's and Smith's Patent gunpowder;
Spence's Powder;
In addition, there were numerous European proprietary propellants that were rare or unheard of in the US, including one made from sawdust.
Virtually all of the "black powder substitutes" in use today are simply reformulations of old patents, some aren't even altered, made from the same ingredients as they were when first introduced almost two hundred years ago.
I've also ran into shooters who disparage and insult anyone who doesn't use the "Holy Black". But putting down someone who uses Pyrodex, for instance, because it is a "substitute" is like putting down someone who uses HP-38 because it is a "substitute" for Bullseye.
There is nothing special or inherent about black powder, nor is it anymore authentic. It's only in the modern era that black powder has become anything more than simply another way of getting your bullet down the barrel.
Uh...I shoot Pyrodex, and I haven't had anyone throw rocks at me, called me names, give me the fing$er, call my ancestors names or threaten to kill my dog because of it....so what's the fuss about here?
Mr. Bolt, don't worry, be happy - shoot whatever you like.
Mr. Bolt, don't worry, be happy - shoot whatever you like.
I don't think anybody in this thread is throwing rocks at Pyrodex users.
I appreciate the history lesson, but don't know how it's relevant to the current discussion here in 2009, or how it ties into the OP's rant. You forgot about Cordite, too.
Pyrodex exists, as developed by Michael Levinson and the late Dan Pawlak, for one reason and one reason only: DOT shipping regulations. The stuff is less sensitive, so it's classified not as an explosive, but as a flammable. That's great for the UPS driver, not so great for the flintlock owner.
Gun shops and sporting goods stores would be more than happy to stock Holy Black if they weren't encumbered by those shipping regulations, insurance policies, and fire department rules. That's a fact, so they stock the substitutes, including the plethora of sucrose and ascorbic acid based variants we're seeing on the shelves these days.
I've shot Pyrodex and American Pioneer substitutes in my BP firearms. I find them no better, and actually worse than real honest-to-Gawd BP. Pyrodex as loaded in a BPCR .45-70 Sharps? Forget it. My muzzleloading and cartridge BP loads are more consistent over the chronograph (try within just a few FPS shot-to-shot), and I could care less about cleaning, since I clean all my BP guns immediately after I'm done shooting them. In that respect, I've actually found Pyrodex to be more corrosive than BP. Since I can purchase Goex BP fairly easily, I have no need whatsoever to buy the substitutes, but I understand completely why folks are relegated to them, and I respect them for their decisions.
You make do with what you can get. There used to be a bazillion domestic BP companies back in the day, and now we're down to just one, with a couple other varieties being imported. I've even got a couple pounds of DuPont FFFg, but they're now gone, too. The smokeless fad pretty much saw to that. If there are going to be any upstart companies providing muzzleloading propellant, you can guarantee it's going to be a DOT-approved substitute.
I appreciate the history lesson, but don't know how it's relevant to the current discussion here in 2009, or how it ties into the OP's rant. You forgot about Cordite, too.
Pyrodex exists, as developed by Michael Levinson and the late Dan Pawlak, for one reason and one reason only: DOT shipping regulations. The stuff is less sensitive, so it's classified not as an explosive, but as a flammable. That's great for the UPS driver, not so great for the flintlock owner.
Gun shops and sporting goods stores would be more than happy to stock Holy Black if they weren't encumbered by those shipping regulations, insurance policies, and fire department rules. That's a fact, so they stock the substitutes, including the plethora of sucrose and ascorbic acid based variants we're seeing on the shelves these days.
I've shot Pyrodex and American Pioneer substitutes in my BP firearms. I find them no better, and actually worse than real honest-to-Gawd BP. Pyrodex as loaded in a BPCR .45-70 Sharps? Forget it. My muzzleloading and cartridge BP loads are more consistent over the chronograph (try within just a few FPS shot-to-shot), and I could care less about cleaning, since I clean all my BP guns immediately after I'm done shooting them. In that respect, I've actually found Pyrodex to be more corrosive than BP. Since I can purchase Goex BP fairly easily, I have no need whatsoever to buy the substitutes, but I understand completely why folks are relegated to them, and I respect them for their decisions.
You make do with what you can get. There used to be a bazillion domestic BP companies back in the day, and now we're down to just one, with a couple other varieties being imported. I've even got a couple pounds of DuPont FFFg, but they're now gone, too. The smokeless fad pretty much saw to that. If there are going to be any upstart companies providing muzzleloading propellant, you can guarantee it's going to be a DOT-approved substitute.
Sagetown
Member
Amen! I even have some Pyrodex in my stock.
Smokin_Gun
Member
Black Powder is not more authentic that Pyrodex? Check with the Chinese and the Spanish that took it from them... :O) Or did I misunderstand you?
And I strongly disagree, The Holy Black is a way of Life and another element in being... for some of us :O)
Although I can understand what you are saying...
Did you buy Clean Shot to forego smoke?
Or to have an easier time of cleaning the gun?
If I remember correctly, Clean Shot is one of those substitutes that was marketed for easier cleaning of the firearm...
You're not supposed to see the ball go downrange with BP.
There's too much white stuff wafting in the air immediately afterwards.
Although you will at times see a neat smoke ring after each shot.
Or to have an easier time of cleaning the gun?
If I remember correctly, Clean Shot is one of those substitutes that was marketed for easier cleaning of the firearm...
You're not supposed to see the ball go downrange with BP.
There's too much white stuff wafting in the air immediately afterwards.
Although you will at times see a neat smoke ring after each shot.
"Black Powder is not more authentic that Pyrodex? Check with the Chinese and the Spanish that took it from them... :O) Or did I misunderstand you?"
Well, my point is that black powder substitutes have been in use almost as long as black powder has. I'm just saying that b.p. substitutes aren't anything new, and that using a b.p. substitute in a two hundred year old gun (or reproduction) is just as authentic as using actual black.
I would also argue the point that the early use of black powder is solely in the hands of a Chinese proprietorship. Roman records detail a concoction that sounds just like black powder, and this information predates any Chinese source by at least 500 years. Of course, there was trading between the Chinese and Roman Empire, albeit on a limited basis, so perhaps the Chinese got it from the Romans or vice-a-versa.
And then of course there was Greek fire, not a propellant per say but certainly on the right track. This is all incidental to the topic but interesting nonetheless.
Well, my point is that black powder substitutes have been in use almost as long as black powder has. I'm just saying that b.p. substitutes aren't anything new, and that using a b.p. substitute in a two hundred year old gun (or reproduction) is just as authentic as using actual black.
I would also argue the point that the early use of black powder is solely in the hands of a Chinese proprietorship. Roman records detail a concoction that sounds just like black powder, and this information predates any Chinese source by at least 500 years. Of course, there was trading between the Chinese and Roman Empire, albeit on a limited basis, so perhaps the Chinese got it from the Romans or vice-a-versa.
And then of course there was Greek fire, not a propellant per say but certainly on the right track. This is all incidental to the topic but interesting nonetheless.
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