Blackpowder weapons for concealed carry?

[Preacherman]

I just had to start this forum out with the funniest post I ever read on The Firing Line's "Black Powder And Cowboy Action Shooting" forum (see here for the original). It started with the question:

Does anyone use a black powder firearm as a defensive weapon? If so what are you using and why?

Has anyone ever actually had to use a black powder firearm for defence? If so what happened?

The immediate answer, that had me rolling on the floor with laughter, was posted by Kalindras: I've "censored" some of the more robust language for this thread.

Only person I know who's a lunatic enough to do it is my friend Terry.

Terry went out, just after they passed the law, here in Texas, and applied. Despite everything, he was issued a permit in the first 1000 (I'll have to check on the number). His reason?

"I've always wanted to carry an 1860 Cap-n-Ball."

And he does. He carries a reproduction 1860 Army (an Uberti) in a custom-made leather shoulder holster (did I mention that Terry is very TALL?!?). He carries (or carried, haven't asked him in a while) it with one empty chamber, two chambers loaded with nothing but powder and wadding, and three chambers loaded up with lead.

One night, we were down in Austin, walking down Guadalupe after hitting 6th, and this little punk comes around the corner of the Celtic store (there's bit of open space, there, so we'd seen him coming...but we were drunk, and didn't really think anything about it. Terry was REAL drunk. Red-in-the-face drunk.). He sticks his hand in the pocket of his jacket and thrusts it forward at me. Even drunk, I did what any little black duck would do. I slipped behind Terry. Unabashed, the kid pointed at Terry and demanded our wallets. Terry, drunk and belligerent, told him to go **** himself (actually, he described it more graphically, but let's not belabour the point). The exchange from there went something like this:

BG: Man, I'll blow your head off!
Terry: With what? *laughs*
BG: [Thrusts hand in pocket forward] I've got a gun, man! I'll put a cap in yo' fat a**!
Terry: S**t. That finger wouldn't even get THROUGH the fat on my a**! Why don't'cha get a REAL gun?!? [reaches into jacket]
BG: Man, I'm warning you! I'll blow you away!
Terry: Then do it! It's you or me... [pulls out "The Cannon"]
BG: HOLY S**T!!!! WHUT THE **** IS THAT?!?
Terry: Punk-a** insurance! [points it in the air as the kid turns to run]
BG: MOTHUH******!!!

At this point, Terry squeezed off the first "BANG-BANG" chamber, with the resultant cloud of smoke and that low roar that BP makes. When the smoke cleared, Terry was on the ground laughing hysterically. The kid was nowhere to be seen. And me? I was sober. Totally, completely, and unquestioningly sober. Total time? About twelve seconds. If I could market stark terror, I'd be rich. It cures hangovers, lethargy, curiousity, and a HOST of other ailments, in my experience.

When he sobered up, Terry was aghast. He was like, "OH, S**T!!! What if the cops had busted me drunk?!?" At no point had he even considered that the kid just MIGHT have had a real gun. It had never even entered his head--that he might have gotten shot and killed.

Haven't partied much with Terry in a few years...but I hear he's still a bit of a Heller. Kinda strange. He seems to get worse as he ages, instead of mellowing...

Kal

May we have equally hysterical posts on this forum from time to time!

 

[C.R.Sam]

Responsible....no.
A hoot....definately.
I see nothing wrong with usin a big bore BP gun for defence if one is practiced with it. Beats the whey out of a derringer.

Firing it without cause is a bit over the line tho.
Carryin while hammered drunk is WAY over the line.

Some mellow with age.
Others of us ripen with age...and smell like it.

Sam

 

[Steve Smith]

Another way to look at it.

You can't buy a handgun 'till you're 21. In CO, you can't carry concealed 'till you're 25 and get a permit.


You don't have to be 21 to buy a blackpowder gun.

How's an 18 year old going to carry a little protection?


Sometimes you follow the rules as best as you can, and then you do what it takes to get along.

 

[Preacherman]

Steve - I think you meant "blackpowder" gun...

 

[Steve Smith]

A wise-guy, eh?


Fixed it.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The blackpowder advantage for the 18 year old.

I bought mine (Ruger Old Army) from Gil Hebard when I was 18. Calif. wanted me to be 21 and go through a FFL. I decided not to wait so I just wrote a check and Gil sent the gun. He's happy, I'm happy and I've never fired a shot in anger (a good man's gotta know his limitations and I'm a good man).

Second advantage of close range firing with the blackpowder is that even if you miss, you set them afire. I use to shoot mine on New Year's Eve or on July 4th. No lead ball, just wadded up foil that wouldn't go beyond 8 feet before it open and float harmlessly to the ground. But the flame. At least 6 feet long and if you stood to the side during the night, you'd see it too. What a flamethrower.

 

[Schuey2002]

I kick this off with a ... ROTFLMAO !!

 

[Mike Weber]

Howdy Gary:
I made it over from TFL. I remember this story from over at TFL. Carry of a BP gun for self defence could work overall performance wouldn't match what we have today in bullets or ballistics. Cap and ball revolvers have proven themselves quite deadly though. I think that the new snub nosed Coltb1860 Army clone being sold by Cabelas would be a good choice of one were choosing a BP CCW weapon. Of course a full sized revolver in a skeletonized shoulder holster would work too. Tuning things up to insure reliable ignition would be top priority with a C&B revolver. I had to camfer the nipples on three out of four of my Navy Arms C&B revolvers a pair of 1860 Colt and a pair of 1851 Colts to make the caps seat and fire properly. I also shoot Remington New Model Army revolvers in CAS competition along with my other C&B revolvers. Even with a reliable C&B there is still the occaisional missfire, usually a problem with the cap ignition. Combine this with poorer ballistic performance than modern handguns and you can see that these aren't the best choice for self defense. They are fun shooters though.

 

[Gewehr98]

I remember that thread over on TFL, too.

I followed through with my intentions for Christmas this year. Now both of my stepsons in Southern California have replica 1858 Remington .44 blackpowder revolvers as their ready weapons. No paperwork on file with either the Feds or Kali DOJ, and they practice for fairly cheap without having to pay an ammo tax where they live near LA. Last I heard, they were going to try those Pyrodex pellets for revolvers, with the conical lubed bullets.

 

[Jim Watson]

Cap and ball revolvers served real well from 1836 til way up in the 1870s. Wild Bill Hickock stayed with them even after the SAA was on the market.

However, from watching CAS C&B shooters, the guns they are turning out these days would have got you kilt daid if you had to depend on them against the hostiles. Most of them need a good deal of tuning for reliability. They are made as toys, not weapons.

 

[Ian]

I've had very good luck with my two 1860 Army clones (Piettas) - my one serious malfunction was my fault (I seated a ball improperly and shaved a big hunk of lead off it, allowing it to slide halfway out of the cylinder and lock the gun up upon firing other cylinders). I would love to use one for an open carry weapon... I reall like the "old" look and feel of them (an SAA would be almost as good). I also found the lack of regulation very nice - I was 18 when I ordered them, and they showed up at the door two days later with nary a hassle.

 

[BigG]

Not exactly BP, but...

I went to a defensive handgun course where we fired about 600 rounds as I recall. One feller brought (this is no bull) a long barreled Ruger single action carried Mexican style. He soon switched to an autoloader.

BTW, love the smell. PU

 

[El Tejon]

Back in my LE daze, one of the security bailiffs on our floor, a retired eastside copper, made a career of doing stuff to irk his boss, the county sheriff. The SD had an issue weapon, but one could carry whatever bug you qual'd with.

The bailiff waits until the Sheriff himself is out at the range qualifying and then proceeds to qual beside the Sheriff with a `58 Remington blackpowder. The Sheriff, coughing, stomped off the range.

Why he wasn't fired I have no idea. The bailiff still works the same post (but the Sheriff is now the US Marshal for the District).

 

[Jim Watson]

Thunder Ranch has done one or a few 19th century classes, Mike Venturino and a few other diehards have run it with black - cartridge, not C&B. You can get the job done, if you work on it.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I guess I could carry my .50 cal. percussion pistol, but I'd have a heck of a time finding a holster to fit it. The danged thing is HUMONGOUS.

Plus - I'd have to convert my purse to a "possibles bag" and never, ever leave home without my powder horn.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

A black powder wouldn't be my first choice for a defensive gun -- but it wouldn't be my last, either. I'd rather be armed with my Colt Navy, Dragoon, or Ruger Old Army than with a mousegun. Naturally, these lack the portability of a mousegun but I'd take one of them over anything less than a 9mm Mak for defense.

 

[ruger357]

Why not the ultimate nasel spray from hell, the NAA cap and ball version of their mini revolvers.

 

[Kalindras]

Originally posted by Preacherman
It started with the question:The immediate answer, that had me rolling on the floor with laughter, was posted by Kalindras

May we have equally hysterical posts on this forum from time to time!

Glad I could bring you a smile, Preacherman!! While I certainly haven't hit "Lawdog" status, if I can occasionally score one that folks'll remember, then it's worth it.

Been trying to track Terry down for the last month or so--I try to make it a point at least once a decade or so to track down all of my friends and remind them that our lives once intersected, and may do so again!! He's a trig one, though. Apparently, he moved from Austin in '99. I tracked him to Laredo, and then he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. I'm still on his trail, though. Heck, I may even have to make this a road trip!!!

That's SURE to generate some tales...

Kal

 

[Preacherman]

Glad to know you're here, Kalindras. Bring us some more of those threads!

 

[Random Discharge]

5 1/2" Ruger Old Army ...

Ruger's latest Old Army offering comes to mind for BP concealed carry. Though chopping 2 whole inches from a revolver that starts out over a foot long probably doesn't help much in either the concealment or ballistics department. I've got my eye on one anyway for fun, not CCW.
R.D.

 

[Poodleshooter]

I wouldn't trust my Pietta '58 Remington copy with self defense, but that's just because it was a piece of junk, reliability wise.
Nothing like shooting one shot, then having all the other caps fall off (regardless of brand or #10,#11 size).

 

[sixgun_symphony]

I carried a .31 caliber vest pocket Derringer for 6 months. It was made of bronze rather than iron or steel.

It uses #11 caps and I load 10gr FFG with .31 caliber swaged roundball.

My other weapon was a blackjack kept in my coat pocket.

 

[Jim K]

I once knew a fellow who carried a Colt Pocket Model .31 caliber in Washington, D.C. I kept looking in the papers to see if there were any reports of a body with one buckshot in it, but never did, so I suspect he never used it.

A good BP revolver is just as good as a fixed ammo gun for the first 5/6 shots. And anyone who thinks a BP revolver is not dangerous can ask a fellow named "Jeb" Stuart when they run across him.

I often load with cartridges, though, and this confuses the heck out of the powder flask guys.

Jim

 

[foghornl]

I carried my 1858 Army Remington replica many years back. Was working a shift where I got off at 3:00AM
Left the building after shift, only to find hood of my car up, and some guy working under the hood....
Me: "what R U doing' ? ?
BG: "I'm gonna rip this guys battery. My car quit.
Me: "I don't think so. That's MY car."
BG: (whipping around quickly) "Yes I am"....flashes a medium size kife in my general direction.
Me: Drawing 1858 Army Remington 7 1/2" barrel .44 "Your best bet is to hit the bricks....NOW ! ! ! ! " ...thumbing back hammer.
BG: Oh [very colorful language deleted] ! ! ! ! ! ! ! throws down knife and beats feet accross parking lot.

Popped a round into the ground accross parking lot, drove home. Never saw BG again.

 

[tex_n_cal]

The funniest comment about a BP gun has to be from Sam Clemmons("Mark Twain"), writing about the "Pepperbox" (early revolver)

Apologies, I can't find the reference to it, so it goes something like:

"...and Mister Joe had one of those very new revolving type handguns, referred to by common folk as a 'pepperbox'. He was very proud of it, even though once Joe tried to fetch an ace of spades nailed to a tree, and instead fetched a mule standing about twenty paces to the left. Joe didn't want the mule, but the owner appeared with a shotgun, and obliged him to pay for it, anyway."

I want to say this is from Huckelberry Finn but I'm not sure. Anyone remember?