Blackpowder weapons for concealed carry?

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"And how on earth did Wild Bill unload his?"
Simple - he fired them off. Practice does make better...
Self defense is a tricky issue. I have a Class A Permit to Carry in MA, and I rarely carry (got a nice little Ruger Speed Six). The thought of carrying an 1862 .36, or an 1860 .44 etc makes me chuckle. As a former cop, I gotta tell ya, always look ahead to court, with you as a Defendant. "You pulled and fired WHAT kind of weapon? You actually carry a 150 year old weapon for self defense?" As a former self defense instructror, I'd hesitate kicking someone, even in self defense, due to the "shod foot" concept - kick someone with a bare foot, you're OK, kick someone with a shoe on that foot and you're in trouble. Self defense is more than the weapon in your coat - it's a state of mind. Also, it's a last resort. You do what you gotta do so you won't have to pull that hogleg, even if it means running like a scared rabbit. Not a popular concept, but either is jailtime or losing your house in a civil action. You can be right and still be in the wrong.
 
Mostly agree with gopguy. As for the "18-to-21" argument: just because you can buy one through the mail since it isn't subject to the same Federal restrictions as more modern firearms doesn't mean that your state or municipality doesn't classify it as a "deadly weapon". If you're thinking that you could carry one on your person or in a vehicle with even a little impunity-think again.

As for home or personal defense, I'd refer you to Clint Smith's work. Handguns are seldom the "best" choice for those purposes, though they are likely to be the most convenient (or even the only) option in many circumstances. As even the 'best' modern cartridges and handguns often fail at the task of putting an immediate end to an assault, do you really want to handicap yourself even further by betting the well-being of your Personal Favorite Behind on something with much less in the way of reliability and energy?

In most jurisdictions you can legally buy and own a longarm, rifle or shotgun, at 18. For anything other than concealed carry, you'll be much better served by either in defense of your life and home. Buy a C&B revolver for fun and recreation; don't bet your life on one.
 
how on earth did Wild Bill unload his?
Click to expand...

the version I have heard is that he would shoot each gun
in target practice, clean it, and reload it fresh. (Never
being without one gun fully loaded at any time).

now, whether he did that every day or once a week or
whenever he felt like it needed be done, depends on who
tells the story. but he fired his weapons regularly and
was always carrying fresh, reliable loads.
 
I think Missouri is the state that accepts all other states' permits, and has an age requirement on their own of 23 years? Just get a Maine or North Dakota permit, and buy a regular handgun from someone in state.
 
The thought of carrying an 1862 .36, or an 1860 .44 etc makes me chuckle. As a former cop, I gotta tell ya, always look ahead to court, with you as a Defendant. "You pulled and fired WHAT kind of weapon? You actually carry a 150 year old weapon for self defense?"
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They've been working well for 150 years, so why not carry one? There are no legal implications different from carrying a modern semi. None whatsoever. I can see reliability as an issue, but if you've got a hog leg that works all the time and you want to use it, use it.
 
"There are no legal implications different from carrying a modern semi. None whatsoever..."
Unless you do not have a permit/license to carry.

My reply was mostly directed at the 18 -21 yr olds who suddenly want to carry a BP revolver for self defense because they can't get a permit for a modern firearm, with the thinking that a concealed BP revolver doesn't fit into the concealed weapon category. Well, it does. Want to carry a BP revolver for self defense? Knock yourself out. Ask an opinion, you'll get it. I have an 18 yr old son with more sense than to go running around with a BP revolver for "defense."
 
I see your point. That's certainly true--it's may be a WEAPON under state law even if it it isn't a firearm under the NFA.
 
This whole permit thing drives me crazy, mostly because I live in MA. My son has a Henry .22 and a .50 caliber Hawkins (he has to shoot with me), but he couldnt buy a rubber band for a sling shot at Walmart until he turned 18. I worry more about teens in car accidents than shooting accidents. I just would hate to see someone buy a BP revolver thinking that it didnt fall into a firearms category when it actually does. I remember 18...
 
Missouri recognizes all concealed carry permits issued by other states. The only problem is that a Vermont resident, who needs none while at home, will have no permit to allow concealed carry in Missouri.

No permit is needed to carry concealed in a vehicle.

My daughter carries a 1960s vintage, brass framed Italian replica of an 1851 navy, except in .44, in her car. The old gun isn't worth much if it gets stolen but still is capable of being used effectively for self defense.

Steve
 
If you live in Vermont, you have the option of having your county sheriff write a letter saying you're of good character, which will allow you to get a non-resident New Hampshire permit for $20. That'll let you carry in MO, and many other states, very easily.
 
I live in MA, have a MA permit and a NH permit. MA doesn't recognize the NH permit, and I'm not sure if NH recognizes the MA permit. But I buy all my BP guns and supplies in ME without a permit, but ME won't sell me any modern firearms. Then you got the mayor of Boston blaming all of Boston's gun problems on NH. Is Alaska still wild and wooly and free?
 
I've been watching this thread for a couple of days and I see some interesting thoughts from both sides of the question. A big point to remember for anyone who does not have a CCW permit to remember is that these are weapons and though laws vary from state to state, if you get stopped by a LEO for whatever reason and you have one of these concealed on you--it will be considered a firearm at the time and you'll have more trouble than you know what to do with. If you do have a permit and want to carry a bp revolver, I don't see any reason why not--just make sure that the one you carry is reliable and that you are intimately familiar with its operation so that under stress you won't have to think about the mechanics.

I've seen a lot of opinions about the power of a bp revolver to stop an attacker and I've done some reading about "stopping power" of various firearms. There's endless debate about which caliber is better and one shot stoppers, kinetic energy dumping, velocity and all manner of such. My opinion is that each situation is unique and some people will stop and fall down if you yell "BANG!!" loud enough and others won't stop if you entirely remove their head with the first shot. I read an account of a BG who had fired shots at officers and was on the run trying to escape. He was shot with a shotgun slug that passed through the seat of the vehicle he was in, then through his chest leaving a 1 inch diameter hole all the way through showing daylight and he continued to run and shoot at officers for several seconds before he layed down and died from blood loss.

I see a lot of stories in American Rifleman about people who have stopped intruders in their homes with .22 caliber weapons, (rifles and pistols), sometimes it kills the intruder and sometimes not. I'm of the opinion that you should carry what you are most confident with that still fits your situation. If you are confident with your weapon, you'll be more likely to hit your target where it counts. Just my 2 cents, carry what you are comfortable with for your situation.
 
Yes, but a few states don't issue permits for MO to recognize. Vermont. Kansas. Nebraska. Wisconsin. Illinois. Hm. What's the 6th then?
 
Yes, but a few states don't issue permits for MO to recognize. Vermont. Kansas. Nebraska. Wisconsin. Illinois. Hm. What's the 6th then?
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Here is a hint....you have to swim to it. lol:evil:
 
Really now folks CCW is for protecting your life. I understand the argument about being between the ages of 18 and 21, but unless you are prohibited from having a modern handgun I am afraid you are taking a terrible chance by relying on obsolete technology. Heck, if you have to draw that thing and the bad guy knows much about guns and sees you pull a Colt 1862 pocket Navy or a huge Ruger old Army he may not take you serious......
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I doubt there's a crack head in da hood that's ever seen an 1862 Colt OR a Ruger old army. He stares down that .45 caliber barrel and sees the balls in the cylinder, I think he'll know what's going on. ROFL! However, I quite agree about not relying on antique technology, one reason I don't carry a 1911...:neener: ...but I wouldn't mess with a man with a .44 caliber cap-n-ball cause I'd figure he might just know how to use it if he's THAT into it. :D

I don't think the gun and the mods RyanM is talking about qualifies, exactly, either. Heck, I can see advantages there and might try that sometime myself if I can get to where I can afford to try it. You're talkin' about a TINY gun for which there's no comparison in concealability that will produce probably at LEAST the power of a .32 with a simple conical or round ball in .22 caliber. Call it a "watch pocket gun", whatever. I carry my little NAA .22 everywhere just because it's so danged convenient and it does have uses, like a good jack knife, around the place. I've sent feral animals to their grave with it, filled the frying pan with rabbit meat with it, and shot a few snakes with it when it was the only suitable firearm at hand and the ranges weren't too excessive. I even shot a possum with it that had invaded my kitchen once. That one was worth the price of admission just to watch the wife going nutso. ROFL! "AAAAAAAAAH, IT'S A HUGE RAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I didn't have the nerve to grab it by the tail and chase her with it, really prefer keeping my marriage. :D RyanM's idea would give you in excess of .22 mag effectiveness in a similar size gun that has one quick reload. That's a pretty good idea I think, cartridge or not.

I've got a .31 Remmie. I'd hate to have to carry that for self defense. It's not exactly a Gold Cup National Match for accuracy. :rolleyes: I plan to get a 5 1/2 inch Remmie that might be applicable. It's a lot lighter and probably more compact than that same barrel length Ruger and plenty for defense. I won't likely carry it, of course, got far better cartridge options for that. If I got that little NAA, though, it WOULD replace my current NAA .22. I'm interested in hearing the range reports on THAT one, very practical idea, there and makes for a danged sight better back up than a .22 long rifle mini if it pans out.
 
Perhaps 15 years ago in the American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" section, there was a report of an elderly man who was walking his dog. He had a reproduction Colt M1851 in his belt -- dunno why. He was accosted by a knife-wielding would-be robber.

Local prosecuting attorney filed no charges against the elderly man. Robber lived.
 
Hawaii issues a permit, and is listed on the Packing.org list. I guess I could swim to Michigan since I'm in PA, but they're listed too.

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I even shot a possum with it that had invaded my kitchen once. That one was worth the price of admission just to watch the wife going nutso. ROFL! "AAAAAAAAAH, IT'S A HUGE RAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I didn't have the nerve to grab it by the tail and chase her with it, really prefer keeping my marriage.
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Bwa ha ha ha ha haaa! I woulda paid money to have seen that.
 
The typical "big bore" cap and ball revolver delivers a ~148gr pure lead .454 caliber round ball at ~850fps.

Not exactly "major", but nothing at which to sneer.
 
Blackpowder in Michigan

Some things of interest to note in Michigan. First, the firearms laws were recently changed so that blackpowder handguns are no longer considered "firearms", and therefore no purchase permit or "safety inspection" (read: registration) is required.

Also, the governor recently signed into law a package of bills known collectively as the "castle doctrine". In a nutshell, the Michigan castle doctrine says that:

1) If you are anywhere you have any legal business being, you are under no duty to retreat if you are threatened. Doesn't matter if it's your own home, a friend's house, or in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

2) If you DO have to use lethal (or less-than-lethal) force in a justifiable defensive situation, you are immune from civil liability, and...

3) If some whiny, liberal scumbag tries to sue you because you plugged him (or his precious crack-addicted little boy who only wanted to kill you for your wallet to feed his harmless little habit) in self-defense, the court will automatically award all court and lawyers fees to you, the defendant.

BTW, I have an old cheap mule-eared sidelever Belgian double-barrel shotgun from 1892 or earlier (according to the proofs). Not a "damascus" gun (it says "steel barrels" on the top rib), so I'm not too worried about the barrel bursting as long as I don't use smokeless. Anybody have any recommendations for defensive loads in 12-gauge 2-3/4" brass shotshells? I have a .312 roundball mold that would cast decent "buckshot" (or even a .375 mold that would cast shot slightly larger than 000 buck). Loading data for "punkin balls" would also be appreciated (the gun is a cylinder bore so I'm not too concerned about shooting solid balls in it). A roundball, due to its ballistic inefficiency, tends to dump all of its energy inside the target NOW, and has stopping power all out of proportion to its paper ballistics. Could I use Triple Se7en safely or is that just a bit TOO hot for an antique gun? Also, the barrels are 30" long. The gun has little if any collector value. Should I have the barrels professionally cut down to a more manageable 20", or retain the length for better power (blackpowder relies on barrel length for power more than smokeless does)? Keep in mind I'd like this to be a multipurpose gun, possibly using it for hunting feathered and furred game as well as managing 2-legged predators.
 
Twains references to the pepper box which he called an Allen's revolver were in "Roughing It." He called it a cheerful weapon because it would either fail to fire altoghther or set of all of the barrels witha "rattling crash." Whoever developed the character " Monk" (pre-festus Ken Curtis) for Have Gun Will Travel, lifted twain's pepperbox discussion whenever monk used his pepperbox.

Here is the definition of a fire arm in Texas Penal Code 46.01

made, or adapted for delivery or shooting an explosive weapon.
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to
expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an
explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to
that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral
part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons
made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before
1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

Non cartridge pre 1898 guns are not considered firearms> neither are replicas of those guns. Cartridge arms are considered firearms regardless of vintage.

The definition of Handgun under texas law starts out (sic)" A Firearm that..."

So, techinically the percussion revolvers and replicas fall outside texas law. A lawyer might be able to make that point for you at some point in the process.
 
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