Blanks for a 21 Gun Salute

[Durango_Dave]

My Dad was recently buried at a military funeral. A 21 gun salute was performed and they gave the spent shells to family members.

These were no ordinary blanks. They seem to be similar to 7.62×51 but the tip, where the bullet would normally be had a long snoot with a plug in it.

Looking over these shells I realized the rifles could not shoot regular 7.62 ammo. A bullet would prevent the round from chambering.



If these blanks were ever used in a normal rifle chambered in 7.62×51 the "snoot" at the end would rupture under pressure. The rifles must have been modified to only shoot these special blanks. I'm sure this was done for safety reasons. The guns could never be loaded with anything more dangerous than blanks.

To my surprise one of the blanks they gave us was unfired. You can see the primer in the picture. There is a red plug a tenth of an inch down the snoot.

I'm posting this just in case someone has more information about these specialized guns. This seems like something Ian McCollum from FogottenWeapons.com would have a video on but I couldn't find one.

Note about my picture: I don't have a 7.62x51 cartridge so I used a .300 Savage for comparison. The only difference is the .300 Savage has a slightly shorter neck and steeper shoulder.

Thanks in advance for your condolences but Dad was 97 years old, bedridden and in pain. It was good when his suffering was over.

EDIT: this wasn't really a 21 gun salute. Since this was a funeral it was a three-volley salute.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

97 years old, bedridden and in pain. It was good when his suffering was over.

Mad lad to have lived so long, to have endured so much. God has one more solider with him in heaven.

Note about my picture: I don't have a 7.62x51 cartridge so I used a .300 Savage for comparison.

Which makes sense, as .308 was actually based on the .300 savage scaled up, rather than a 30-06 scaled down as most perceive.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Sorry for your loss.

That is Cartridge, 7.62mm, Blank, M82. They are "ordinary" blanks for all 7.62mm weapons. They do not require "special" weapons, and can be fired in any rifle chambered in 7.62mm NATO or .308 Winchester without modification (other than a blank firing device for automatic operation)

The reason they have a long nose where the bullet is is because the M60 was particularly sensitive about feeding, and would not reliably feed normal rosette crimped, or rolled crimped blanks. It needed something to simulate the bullet.

 

[12Bravo20]

First my condolences for your loss.

@lysanderxiii is 100% correct, those are standard 7.62x51 M14 blanks.

 

[kwb377]

R.I.P. for your father.

We used those when I was on SWAT for marksman/observer training. We'd fire them in our bolt guns to simulate a "sniper initiated" entry for the entry team when we were training at venues outside our range, and also used them in training courses where the instructor would try and spot us when firing from a hide. I've still got a 200 rnd. linked belt of them at the house somewhere.

 

[illinoisburt]

Surprisingly enough at my father's funeral two years ago they used 30-06 Garands. The fired cases don't look any different than normal ammunition, so roll crimped card type. I'll have to check but I think they might have been commercial headstamps.

 

[entropy]

Look like the same 7.62 mm M82 Blank we used in M13 links for the M60's . I see lysanderxiii already covered it quite well.

 

[DukeConnor]

I have a hundred round m60 belt of blanks. They look similar.

 

[Old Dog]

These are the blanks (crimped noses) our honor guards used to use at funerals:


They did not cycle the action, so after every shot, the rifle had to be pulled down to port arms and the bolt swiped to eject the cartridge...

Looks as though the technology may have changed.

Since this was a funeral it was a three-volley salute.

That's what the honor guard did at my Dad's graveside service back in December 2022. Did the rifle squad have to manually cycle the bolts after each volley?

 

[Durango_Dave]

These are the blanks (crimped noses) our honor guards used to use at funerals:
View attachment 1173063

They did not cycle the action, so after every shot, the rifle had to be pulled down to port arms and the bolt swiped to eject the cartridge...

Looks as though the technology may have changed.

That's what the honor guard did at my Dad's graveside service back in December 2022. Did the rifle squad have to manually cycle the bolts after each volley?

I don't know. They were off to the side. I didn't pay any attention to them at the time.

 

[Mizar]

They did not cycle the action, so after every shot, the rifle had to be pulled down to port arms and the bolt swiped to eject the cartridge...

A blank cartridge, no matter what type, can't build enough pressure by it's own to cycle a gas operated firearm - that's why a barrel constriction of some sort is used, to raise the pressure inside the barrel. A blank adapter is nothing more than a barrel constriction, but a visible one and it doesn't require permanent alteration to the firearm, as it's the case with movie guns. Most of the times actually, as sometimes you can get away with a thick stainless washer behind the flash hider/compensator without needing to drill and tap the muzzle end. Recoil operated firearms require a slightly different and more complicated approach, but they still need high pressures (barrel constriction) to "cheat the system".

 

[tark]

Blanks can be nasty dangerous if used in an attempt to propel a projectile down the bore. Or remove a plug of dried mud clogging a barrel...as one soldier found out the hard way in Germany in 69. The blown up M-14 was brought to my small arms shop. The soldier got a face full of gas, some brass particles to his face and a lot of splinters imbedded in him. Luckily, he was wearing glasses which saved his eyes.

 

[.308 Norma]

A blank cartridge, no matter what type, can't build enough pressure by it's own to cycle a gas operated firearm - that's why a barrel constriction of some sort is used, to raise the pressure inside the barrel.

Yeppers, there's a small plate with about a .22 caliber hole through it welded on the end of the barrel of each of the M-1 Garands my Post of the American Legion uses for Honor Guard duties. Occasionally, one of the blanks in someone's rifle misfires, and when that happens, that guy just "pretends" that he's firing in the rest of the volleys - when 6 out of 7 rifles are going off at the same time, I doubt many people notice one rifle isn't going off.

 

[jmr40]

They do it different in different places. Our local American Legion has an honor guard that performs at military funerals and did dad's funeral. My uncle had been in the Navy and was buried in Tampa FL. The Navy sent a military honor guard to his funeral. They used Garands at both funerals. They had to manually cycle each round for each volley. They folded the empty brass into dads' flag that is in a shadow box over my desk. My brother has my uncle's flag.

I lost my dad a little over 10 years ago. He served in Europe during WW-2 and would be 100 if still alive.

 

[AlexanderA]

The reason they have a long nose where the bullet is is because the M60 was particularly sensitive about feeding, and would not reliably feed normal rosette crimped, or rolled crimped blanks. It needed something to simulate the bullet.

WW2 .30 caliber blanks don't have the long nose, and so .30 caliber Browning machine guns adapted for firing blanks, as part of the adaptation, have to have a feedway spacer to make up the difference in length. (The blank-adapted BAR uses a special magazine with a spacer built in.)

With the 7.62 mm NATO M60, it was decided to dispense with the feedway spacer, and move the "spacing" over to the blank ammunition. One less fiddly gadget to get lost.

Also, the blank-adapted M14 rifle accordingly doesn't need a special blank magazine (unlike the BAR).

 

[dh1633pm]

When I was in the Air Force we did military funerals with Garands. The blanks were not longer than normal brass. We cycled them manually. Sorry for your loss.

 

[Robert]

If these blanks were ever used in a normal rifle chambered in 7.62×51 the "snoot" at the end would rupture under pressure. The rifles must have been modified to only shoot these special blanks. I'm sure this was done for safety reasons. The guns could never be loaded with anything more dangerous than blanks.

No, these blanks work just fine in standard rifles. The long nose blanks were developed to aid in feeding in semi autos and machine guns. I've shot tons of these, in 30-06, through unmodified Garands. And I've shot tons of these, I'm 7.62x51, through an M-60.

 

[CapnMac]

Depending upon the American Legion post, they may have M-1917 rifles instead of Garands; the bolt action guns are often more reliable for both firing pin strikes and loading additional rounds.

Military details will use either M-14 or M-16 and have to hand-cycle the rounds.

Blanks are pretty notorious for not going off even with solid firing pin hits. Which gets a touch iffy with 70 year-old firing pins, too.

There was an RFP for "hearing safe blanks" for funerals, that pretty much went no where due to the complexity of achieving that. Firing Parties stand a bit further off when possible, though.

 

[WestKentucky]

I have seen star crimped 5.56 and 7.62 brass, cardboard plug blanks of multiple calibers, and a number of different ways to modify guns into firing blanks, or ONLY blanks. By far the ones that seem the most dangerous are for muzzle loading firearms. Muzzleloaders shooting true black powder need a little compression to pop and go, otherwise they burn up without sound. The cartridge guns also need pressure to operate, but they do so in creative ways. The muzzleloading guns I have seen for reenactment purposes don’t have much if anything in the line of alteration and for pressure they just ram home a heavy wad of paper which in theory burns up as it shoots, but I have seen some burning wads travel long distances while burning, and I have seen some fired up close which left a dangerous projectile moving through the air. At least the cartridge guns are altered to where they will be damaged but likely not be dangerous in most situations. It’s a little bit surprising to me that more people are not injured in civil war and revolutionary war re-enactments.

 

[Reloadron]

Sorry for your loss.

That is Cartridge, 7.62mm, Blank, M82. They are "ordinary" blanks for all 7.62mm weapons. They do not require "special" weapons, and can be fired in any rifle chambered in 7.62mm NATO or .308 Winchester without modification (other than a blank firing device for automatic operation)

The reason they have a long nose where the bullet is is because the M60 was particularly sensitive about feeding, and would not reliably feed normal rosette crimped, or rolled crimped blanks. It needed something to simulate the bullet.

View attachment 1173057

This covers it all. From 1972 to 1975 I served as a USMC Recruiter in Cleveland, Ohio. I was in charge of my share of funeral details. We would draw standard issue M14 rifles along with BFAs (Blank Firing Adapters) from the armory, do the detail, and return the rifles. All the BFA does is choke the escaping gas down simulating a bullet over the gas port. This allows the rifle to cycle in normal semi-automatic fashion. A BFA also allows the same rifle to cycle in full auto operation. Typically 7 rifles with 3 volleys for a 21 gun salute. We typically policed the brass and made it available to family of the deceased, it was a common practice.

At my father's burial the Marines were from a local reserve group using M16 rifles. I never used a BFA on an M16 so no clue what those look like. The detail did a fine job.

Ron

 

[entropy]

The issue ones are a big square red or yellow cage that screws onto the birdcage muzzle brake.

 

[AlexanderA]

The muzzleloading guns I have seen for reenactment purposes don’t have much if anything in the line of alteration and for pressure they just ram home a heavy wad of paper which in theory burns up as it shoots, but I have seen some burning wads travel long distances while burning, and I have seen some fired up close which left a dangerous projectile moving through the air.

When I was doing Civil War reenacting (in the 1980's), no wadding was used. In fact, ramrods were banned from the field, for safety reasons. We just poured loose powder (from a torn paper cartridge) down the barrel. No problem getting a "bang" out of this.

I never used a BFA on an M16 so no clue what those look like.

It's a red attachment (bore restrictor) that clamps on the flash hider. I just saw on the TV news this week, a military funeral that took place in Greece. (This was a Greek army senior sergeant that died on a humanitarian mission after the floods in Libya. He was promoted posthumously to full colonel.) The firing detachment from the Greek special forces was armed with M16 rifles with the BFA's. Interesting that there is a growing issuance of M16's in the Greek armed forces, although the standard weapon is still the G3. Garands are still used for ceremonial purposes, but evidently not in this case. In the same incident in Libya, two officer-nurses were also killed. They were promoted posthumously to admiral and air force general, respectively. (Families get a survivor pension based on the higher rank.)

 

[12Bravo20]

The red M15A2 Blank Firing Device (BFD) is for the M16 series rifles with a 20" while the yellow M23 BFD is for the M4 Carbines only. The reason for two different BFD's is due to the pressure differences between the M16 and M4. The M23 is generally stamped "M4 Carbine Only"

The M13 BFD was for the M60 machine gun. One had to be careful to make sure the BFD was properly installed onto the M60 barrel or it would fly off and cause damage to someone when the first round was fired.I ws once given a defective M13 BFD and it went flying off with the first shot, lucky no one got hit by it as it flew off.

 

[Riomouse911]

We used those same BFA’s when I was on SWAT at my second agency. I played the bad guy lots of times as a junior member, I stared down the barrels of many AR’s wearing those red and yellow cages as I was “arrested” during training (or sometimes “killed” if it was a LFI scenario).

Stay safe.

 

[Outlaw75]

When I was doing Civil War reenacting (in the 1980's), no wadding was used. In fact, ramrods were banned from the field, for safety reasons. We just poured loose powder (from a torn paper cartridge) down the barrel. No problem getting a "bang" out of this.

I was doing it back then, too. The only time I ever remember ramming the cartridge paper was at "Living History" events where we were demonstrating the Load in Nine Times and not specifically firing at anything.