Bolt-action .223 rifles - can they all shoot 5.56 and or steel-cased ammunition?

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roscoe

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Just what the thread title says. I am looking for a reasonably-priced bolt gun in .223 for my daughter, but have a fair amount of steel-cased 5.56 for my Saiga. It would be nice to be able to use the 5.56 ammo in a pinch for plinking, but so far, only the CZ youth 527 advertises itself as being able to shoot steel-cased and 5.56.

My Saiga obviously shoots anything, so I am not really clear on whether bolt guns in general are restricted to brass .223. Any info would be very helpful. There are some crazy prices on rifles like the Savage Axis, but will pay more for more utility.
 
roscoe wrote:
My Saiga obviously shoots anything, so I am not really clear on whether bolt guns in general are restricted to brass .223. Any info would be very helpful.
Click to expand...

To begin with, Steel versus Brass case isn't going to materially impact the life of the rifle. What will impact the life of the rifle is the construction of the bullet.

Next, the section of the Wikipedia article on the differences between how pressure is measured in 5.56x45 versus .223 Remington should help explain the significance of the apparent pressure differences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#5.56mm_NATO_versus_.223_Remington

Finally, while liability concerns mean nobody (including me) will tell you that it is okay to shoot even one 5.56x45 round in a gun marked .223 Remington, the fact that .223 Remington rifles must be proof tested at pressures 130% of their designed maximum does suggest that "use the 5.56 ammo in a pinch" would be unlikely to result in catastrophic failure.

I have a Savage Axis in .223 Remington. I also have a lot of ammunition I loaded below the maximum charge listed in the Hornady Handbook #4. Subsequent revisions now list that 4th Edition load as over maximum. Since I have hundreds of these legacy rounds that were supposedly safe when Hornady #4 was published, I have continued to shoot it in my .223 Rifle and I have had zero problems.

If you're in the market for an American-made bolt gun in .223 Remington, I would not hesitate to recommend the Savage, Mossberg or Ruger. All are making "entry-level" rifles that today shoot better "out of the box" than accurized premium rifles of just a few decades ago.
 
My understanding is that it's not just higher pressure to be concerned with when considering firing a 5.56 round in a .223 Rem chamber. I believe the physical specs for 5.56 call for a slightly longer overall cartridge length. if the .223 chamber/throat is made "long" then the 5.56 might fit just fine. (I'm only talking physical fit.....you then have the pressure issue to consider that hdwhit mentions above.) But if that particular chamber/throat config is somewhat short, then the 5.56 round might be too long, causing even greater pressure spikes if the bullet is touching the lands.

I've read accounts of a .223 chambered gun firing 5.56 rounds just fine. But it seems dicey enough, even if effort was made to make sure the physical fit would work, I wouldn't do it.

OR
 
Steel cased ammo affects nothing. 5.56 in .223 "can" but probably won't. But if you can't find a rifle that shoots both (you've found one) buy the correct ammo.

As an aside, the CZ is a GREAT rifle. You'd be hard pressed to beat it.
 
Internet "lore"says it's OK to shoot either.
The people MAKING the guns say NO in most cases unless gun is duel rated, meaning it has a hybrid or 5.56 cut chamber leade.

It's my understanding the 5.56 chamber has a longer leade which actually reduces chamber pressure. When people started wringing accuracy out of the 5.56 by cutting tight short leade chambers, manufactures changed the cartridge to the .223

That being said my Savage .223 has such a long leade I have to load OAL to 2.40" to reach the rifling, spec is 2.26 max OAL.
My Howa .223 is so tight I'm at the rifling with a 2.26" load

It's your call if you want to go against manufacturers recommendations.
 
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FWIW, I fire 5.56 in my R700 on occasion. Other than being slightly louder and faster, it's unremarkable. The brass/primers look fine. As per usual when going off the reservation, YMMV.
 
Eh, it may be an old wives tale but I've always known it as you don't want to shoot 5.56 in a .223. But I've seen several bolt guns chambered in 5.56 so why not go that route to cover you either way?
 
From the CZ site on the youth 527 in 223:

Built to CIP specifications, our .223s will happily eat 5.56, since CIP doesn’t differentiate between the two cartridges and just has the higher pressure as its standard. So our .223s will shoot everything from the cheapest Russian steel to match .223 brass ammo.

When I was researching this I noticed this little blurb was just on the youth model and not on any other flavor of the 527, so I called and asked. They said that all the micro center fire rifles will take both flavors of ammo just fine 223 and 556. Ok.....I am trying to remember if it was said in the manual....I can't remember.

I can tell you that I have shot steel cased ammo in mine...as I as well have tons of the junk....and junk is the word for it. I go from 5 holes touching at 100 to 5 holes on paper with the steel cased garbage....it is not even worth it to me.
And the "good" brass stuff is walmart bulk stuff...I have some reloaded and I wait to see what I get out of it with that stuff.
 
See the SAAMI
TECHNICAL DATA SHEET
UNSAFE FIREARM-AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS . Google it.

A 223 Remington chambered rifle, should not shoot 5.56mm Military ammo.

I would avoid ammo with the Nato headstamp, for sure.

This subject has been debated a million times. :uhoh:
index.php
 
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If you should buy a bunch of once-fired 5.56 cases you'll no doubt find each and every one needs some considerable trimming to bring them to .223 spec before reloading. I think they purposely left them a bit long to give more material for crimping while maintaining the same OAL as the .223. If you get a short chamber this additional case at the mouth has nowhere to go when it tries to release the projectile and is the reason for all the cautions about 5.56 in .223's. Should the .223 chamber leade be long enough to let the 5.56 release the projectile normally there's no harm in interchanging them.
 
I would say unless the maker of the stupid gun says it is ok then it is not OK. In the youth 527 their site says:

If your research shows that the Savage says it is ok, then you are ok no matter what any internet expert says.

Default back to the people that made the item, what they say is bottom line.

Capture_zpsci5wbnzr.png
 
edwardware said:
FWIW, I fire 5.56 in my R700 on occasion. Other than being slightly louder and faster, it's unremarkable. The brass/primers look fine. As per usual when going off the reservation, YMMV.
Click to expand...

In practice, nothing bad ever happens. You don' end up much if any over 5.56 SAAMI pressure with factory ammo. The modern rifles are so strong when chambered in small rounds (= extra steel) that there's no danger whatsoever. But you are doing something "wrong" and "unsafe". That bothers some people. Perhaps rightly so. It's always an option to just run a .223 wylde chamber reamer in if you're concerned.
 
Llama Bob said:
But you are doing something "wrong" and "unsafe". That bothers some people. Perhaps rightly so.
Click to expand...

You're correct, and I'm not one to be bothered.

I make a living as an engineer designing and testing complex mechanical products, and writing usage guidelines not unlike reloading data. I'm perfectly comfortable pushing the edges of the envelope, because I understand it pretty well.
 
The short answer is that it depends on the construction of the particular rifle and the way the throat is reamed. 5.56 specs a longer throat. A max-pressure 5.56 round in a .223 that has a shorter throat can cause a pressure spike.

As to any particular rifle....
 
My Browning bolt action is marked for both 223 and 5.56.

Yes, the maximum allowable length of 5.56 is longer than 223. But in practice, it probably doesn't make much difference because 5.56 has to be short enough to fit in a standard magazine. An M855 cartridge pulled at random measured 2.247", which is comfortably within the 2.125-2.260" which SAAMI specs for 223.
 
Steel-cased 5.56 is low end, low quality ammo. You really think your daughter should learn on low end, low quality ammo? However, it'll depend on whether or not a particular rifle shoots it well or not. Has a lot more to do with the extractor than the rest of the rifle anyway.
"...The people MAKING the guns say NO..." For liability reasons. Same as they do when they say no reloaded ammo. People shot .223 in assorted semi'd 5.56 battle rifles and 5.56 milsurp in .223's for eons before the internet said it was bad. 5.56mm and M855 is just a NATO/U.S. Military designation anyway. No such thing as 5.56NATO reloading data.
 
Just to note, EVERY Ruger manual for rifles and handguns I have read says that the warranty is voided if you shoot handloads...This is relevant since a 223 can be loaded to 5.56 pressure levels (or even much higher).
 
A 5.56 cartridge shot in a 5.56 chamber has the same maximum pressure as a .223 REM cartridge fired in a .223 REM chamber.
A 5.56 chamber is different from a .223 REM chamber.
A 5.56 cartridge that produces maximum pressure in a 5.56 chamber will produce above maximum pressure when that same 5.56 cartridge is shot through a .223 REM chamber.
The reason is simple, given the same brass, same primer, same bullet, same COAL, and same powder the charge/amount of powder for maximum pressure in a 5.56 chamber will be more than the charge needed to reach maximum pressure in a .223 REM chamber.

Thus the differences in the load data for 5.56 and .223 REM are shown below:

POWDER : RAMSHOT TAC

5.56 X 45MM NATO
CIP COMMERCIAL AND NATO/MIL SPECIFICATION (62,350 PSI)
Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-7” ¦ Primer: WIN WSR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.224”
Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 1.760” ¦ Trim Length: 1.750”

68 HDY BTHP-M 23.4 2,851 26.0 3,133 61,995 2.250


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

223 REMINGTON
55000 PSI -- STANDARD SAAMI COMMERCIAL SPECIFICATIONS
Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-12” ¦ Primer: WSR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.224”
Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 1.760” ¦ Trim Length: 1.750”

68 HDY BTHP-M 22.0 2,699 24.4 2,964 54,191 2.250


Notice the 5.56 takes 1.6 grains more powder than the .223 REM.
I don't know about everyone, but I am not going to take a .223 REM load that is listed at max pressure and then add 1.6 grains more to it.
 
Dr T wrote:
Just to note, EVERY Ruger manual for rifles and handguns I have read says that the warranty is voided if you shoot handloads...
Click to expand...

This is absolutely true. The modern manuals for all the major manufacturers specifically diclaim any warranty if reloaded ammunition is used. Yet, I shoot nothing but handloads and nobody has yet to turn away a gun sent to them for warranty repair.

I should also note that my 181-Series and 182-Series Ruger Mini-14 manuals do not mention reloaded ammunition in any sense. This is perhaps because it was during the time that Ruger was specifically NOT providing any form of warranty on the gun and instead saying, "trust us to make it right".
 
ford8nr wrote:
It's my understanding the 5.56 chamber has a longer leade which actually reduces chamber pressure.
Click to expand...

This is correct, the leade in a 5.56x45 chamber is different from a SAAMI .223 Remington chamber. The difference is tiny, but allowing the bullet to travel a short distance before the rifling has to start machining grooves into the bullet does moderate the pressure spike.

When people started wringing accuracy out of the 5.56 by cutting tight short leade chambers, manufactures changed the cartridge to the .223
Click to expand...

The .223 Remington predates the 5.56x45 NATO cartridge, not vice-versa.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#History

1957: The development of the cartridge which eventually became the .223 Remington (from which 5.56mm NATO would eventually be developed) was intrinsically linked to the development of a new lightweight combat rifle.

...

1962: In the spring of 1962 Remington submits the specifications of the .223 Remington to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI). In July operational testing ends with a recommendation for adoption of the AR-15 rifle chambered in .223 Remington.[8]
1963: September the .223 Remington cartridge is officially accepted and named "Cartridge, 5.56mm Ball, M193." The specification includes a Remington designed bullet and the use of IMR4475 Powder which resulted in a muzzle velocity of 3250 feet per second and a chamber pressure of 52,000 psi.[8]
In 1977, NATO members signed an agreement to select a second, smaller caliber cartridge to replace the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge.[10] Of the cartridges tendered, the .223 Remington (M193) was the basis for a new design created by FN Herstal. The FN created cartridge is named 5.56×45mm NATO with a military designation of SS109 in NATO and M855 in the USA.[11] [Emphasis added]
 
hdwhit said:
This is absolutely true. The modern manuals for all the major manufacturers specifically diclaim any warranty if reloaded ammunition is used. Yet, I shoot nothing but handloads and nobody has yet to turn away a gun sent to them for warranty repair.
Click to expand...

To begin with, how is the mfg going to know what you were using? Unless there is some damage from excessive pressure I'm thinking they won't even ask. If there is they will probably just refer you to the ammo mfg. In this case that would be the guy who loaded the ammo.:D
 
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