Brandishing

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LT1coupe

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My wife & I recently attended a CCW course in AZ because now that we are residents our TX CCW is not valid here:scrutiny:
The instructor was giving examples of when you would be justified to draw your weapon & that's were he & I were at odds. He gave scenarios where gang members were surrounding you & your wife, threatening your life, getting right in your face & shoving you. They had no visible weapons so you might get bruised up a little but since there were no visible weapons so you would not be justified to draw your weapon to enable a retreat. He went on to talk about getting beat up a little was also no justification to draw a deadly force type weapon & suggested we carry pepper spray as a first response. I just turned 47, I don't know how many hits I can take & maintain control of my weapon while waiting on the BG to show his, so I'll choose to not let anyone start. AZ just recently passed a stand your ground law that allows you to defend yourself in your own home instead of option B of leaving your home instead of endangering the BG's life:scrutiny:
I left the class a little disillusioned, or is it just me?
 
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Check your state code. In VA it would be perfectly legal to draw a weapon in the situation you describe.

From the Code of VA:

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.
 
I'll look it up, but he showed the way it was worded in class & you had to be in reasonable fear of your life, not in fear of getting beat up. Since there were no visible weapons..... A small man or a woman could be justified, but a healthy 200+ man may have a hard time defending himself for drawing a deadly weapon.
I'll do what ever I think is necessary & then hire a good attorney if I must.
Hopefully, I'll never be in a situation that requires either the gun or the attorney.
 
A small man or a woman could be justified, but a healthy 200+ man may have a hard time defending himself for drawing a deadly weapon.
Click to expand...

You know what they say -- better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
Your instructor was right but also wrong. If its 2 on 1...or even worse odds than that, its called "disparity of force". Same goes if your attacker is much larger. (or if he is a ninja, zombie, Mike Tyson, or just a smaller fella who has a giant visible Navy SEAL tattoo)

Now if you are standing there and there are 5 gangmembers yelling at you, you are probably not legal to draw at that moment. If they start to surround you, then I believe I recall my instructor saying that is an okay situation to draw because them surrounding you is an actionable threat with a real disparity of force and you cannot walk away as you are obviously surrounded.

IMO you won't find 12 jury members who all feel bad you shot some gangbanger.

But here is another factor. If 3 men rush at you to attack you, you may shoot two as much as needed, but not the third if the first two are disabled before you have a chance to start firing upon the third, unless there is still a weapon threat or the person is still much larger.

So my instructor pointed out a rule his momma told him so no one feels left out.
"Everyones get served before anyone gets seconds."
Click to expand...

Now the new AZ law if I recall is not just your home, but any place you have a lawful reason to be. That includes just going to the corner store for smokes. So if someone robs a liquor store with you in it, you don't have to run, you can just smoke them instead.
 
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They had no visible weapons so you might get bruised up a little but since there were no visible weapons so you would not be justified to draw your weapon to enable a retreat. He went on to talk about getting beat up a little was also no justification to draw a deadly force type weapon & suggested we carry pepper spray as a first response.
Click to expand...
I know of no law that requires you to take a beating before you can draw a weapon.

Pilgrim
 
++Outlaws

Disparity of force.

I would take some pains not to allow a gang to surround me.

I would consider my defense to have failed if I allowed myself to be surrounded.

Aside:
Even when I was young enough to be "competitive" I was not large enough or strong enough for that kind of encounter. The only three times I found myself in a confrontation, I also found myself soundly trounced. I only started one of those, and I was all of 9 years old. The last one I was 19 and in the military. The dude that crunched me was 6'2" and 220 lbs.

At that tender age, I discovered I was not cut out for fisticuffs or other physical contests.

I could fence. Pretty good with a long blade, actually. Unhappily, nobody drags those around any more.​

Consequently, I'm afraid I'd engage a little earlier than someone macho enough to "duke it out" with 2 or more belligerent homies.

It is well to remember that it is altogether possible for a couple of "unarmed" assailants to stomp a victim to death. It's not even all that rare.

Finding myself on the wrong end of multiple assailants in the process of encircling me and cutting off my escape would constitute "fear for my life."

I'm afraid those lads are going to "discover" I'm carrying.
 
Virtually any situation in which you can be beaten up can also very easily result in being killed. The fact is that you DO NOT have to allow others to injure you, no matter what your CCW instructor said.
 
Check AZ law for disparity of force. For example, 3 or 4 young males, for example, can represent a disparity of force that put you at risk for grave bodily harm or death. However, they must be doing some thing to place you in Jeporday, have the Ability and the Opprotunity to do gravely harm you and your wife or kill you and/or your wife. While I realize state laws very greatly (as anyone who reads this should), if JAO are all present, then you are more likely to prevail in court if it goes tthat far. If any of of JAO are missing, then you are very likely to go to court and less likely to prevail there.

I would also check this, but I doubt you would ever be justified in brandishing. If you draw your weapon, you must be prepared to use it unless the BGs retreat.

For the situation you describe, disparity of force exisits.
 
While you should have been more aware and not gotten to this point.....

In that scenario, you are ALREADY in a deadly fight. They are just playing with you, til the game gets old, and that will be about 30 seconds. Surounded, badguys outnumber you, threatening your life and your wife, and you can't retreat.

Disparity of Force
Manifest intent
Overt verbalized threats
no opportunity to escape conflict

You heard SOMEONE threaten to cut off your ears or shoot you, didn't you? I'm sure you heard something like that. Your wife heard that too, RIGHT?

I think you have all the particulars you need to justify any shooting.

If you aren't going to draw now.... WHEN? When they're raping your wife? When they pound you to the ground, break a few ribs by kicking you, and gouge out your eye? When they take your pistol off you and decide to test it on your head? Kinda LATE then, isn't it?

People get killed with fists and feet all the time.

I have little regard for "self defense" training which encourages such "paralysis by analysis".

Good way to get dead.

--Travis--
 
Your instructor was/is a moron. Given the example situation, there'd be a few dead homies in da' hood.

Proper articulation of the facts is key with respect to explaining the reasons for your actions.
 
whether you're a 150 lb black belt or 280 lb pro football linebacker, anyone can get a lucky hit on you and leave you open to further damage that could ultimately be life threatening. Better to pull the weapon and maybe not have to use it than to take the chance that you won't be killed or seriously hurt.
 
forshizzle my nizzle you might have ta pull da strap and bust a cap in they asses.
 
I had an incident about 6 months ago. I was being cornered (with my only escape route being blocked off by a large semi truck) by three guys/homie's much bigger than me and I drew my CCW to as I felt my life was in danger.

They backed off but it was pretty tense for a while. I look back and I'd still do the same.

Better to be judged by 12.....as they say.
 
In the scenario described, were retreat not possible - while hemmed in or cornered - I would use deadly force before the first hand touched me or my wife. In such a circumstance described, to do otherwise would be to surrender control of your survival. Not gonna happen.

In Texas one may display or point a firearm at any threat to which actual deadly force would be justified. But there is no way I would let a gang as described gain physical control of my person or anyone that accompanied me.

---------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Try to keep clear of these situations but like said before. "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
 
This is silly.

You thought you saw a gun, right?

You heard threatening language, right?

Bottom line: You were in fear for your life and that can be reasonably backed up in some way.

Case closed.

I'd report the instructor - he's going to get people killed.
 
I would never draw unless I was prepared to follow through, in some of the scenarios he went through, drawing your weapon may have allowed you an opportunity to walk away possibly without firing.
I'm sure his point was "you better be sure". It just floored me when he insinuated that getting beat up a little did not call for deadly force. What's a little beat up? I agree with the post about being alert & not getting in that situation. I believe most people unknowingly get evaluated as a potential victim all of the time. Deliberate people are rarely bothered.
One other that I didn't agree with was an enraged man beating on your car with you & your family inside. As long as the window was not broken there was a barrier between you & you were in no real danger.
 
The instructor was trying to cover his butt in the event someone in the class tries to drag him into court after a shooting. Many state laws are unclear about what is and what is not allowed so the instructor must tap dance around the "What if's". State laws should be more clear in light of so many states allowing CCW. In the above incident Mr. Gangbanger would get a gun show and a loud "Get Away From Me!" What happened next would be up to him.
 
It just floored me when he insinuated that getting beat up a little did not call for deadly force.
Click to expand...

Thats because he is correct. Getting into a fist fight with someone (even if they hit you first) who isn't massively larger than you isn't a legit reason under law to draw a weapon. You cannot draw legally until you feel it is an uneven match up or you are getting worked over good. Now that is a real grey area in the law, but if someone witnesses you getting punched and then sees you draw your firearm and shoot the person, you could likely face manslaughter charges under the law.

I ain't saying its right or wrong, just saying its the law here.
 
So how much are you going to let me and my "homies" beat you and YOUR wife, before you feel like you're going to draw your gun?

And what exactly makes you think you'll be in any condition to do so?

--Travis--
 
He went on to talk about getting beat up a little was also no justification to draw a deadly force type weapon
Click to expand...
Well,,, once you are thoroughly "beat up" a little, then you are ate the mercy of the BG to do whatever they want. Then it may be too late to draw. :uhoh:
 
How many hit's? for me I might take a couple, if they swung at my wife I'd need an attorney......
This is an open carry state, so removing you jacket to defend yourself accidentally exposing your gun could be acceptable :neener:
 
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