Brandishing

[mdao]

In Texas one may display or point a firearm at any threat to which actual deadly force would be justified. But there is no way I would let a gang as described gain physical control of my person or anyone that accompanied me.

You can actually do more than that. According to PC §9.04. Threats as Justifiable Force, displaying your weapon is not a use of deadly force. Rather, it falls under the guidelines for the use of force in PC §9.31. Self-Defense, rather than the stricter guidelines for use of deadly force in PC §9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person.

Is it tactically sound? Up to each individual to decide.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

Getting into a fist fight with someone (even if they hit you first) who isn't massively larger than you isn't a legit reason under law to draw a weapon.

Not singling anyone out here, just picking the last statement about the big guy hitting the little guy. I have been the big guy all my life, and most fights I have been in have been started by some little puke with something to prove. When I was in elementary school I got my butt kicked a couple of times because my parents drilled it into my head that it was not proper to hit someone smaller than myself. I got tired of that and started hitting back. It worked great!

If someone big or little, individual or group, comes up to me and starts to threaten me, they may not get shot, but they will find out that I am carrying. I see these threads, and I see the endless analysis, and I have to wonder how many people here have really been in any sort of situation. Sorry, but no one is laying a finger on me or anyone with me. I am not going to let myself get "a little beat up" to avoid the possibility that I might be charged with brandishing.

In the vast majority of cases, people who start these things do not do so out of the blue. They are not honest, law abiding citizens who suddenly snap. They usually are already known to the local LEOs. If it is your word against someone like that, who do you think the cops are going to believe? Been there and done that a couple of times, not with a gun, but in one, I had to take a knife away from a little guy who was determined to stick me. I disarmed him and beat the stuffing out of him to keep him from continuing his aggression. When the cops arrived, he demanded I be arrested for assault. The LEO in the room replied, SHUT UP! Whatever he did to you, you deserved!" He went off in handcuffs, and I was told to have a nice day.

But regardless of the official attitude, I was not about to get "just a little bit stuck" with a kitchen knife to justify my actions, just like I am not about to get knocked around by the BG so as not to have to pull my piece.

 

[LT1coupe]

I've only been in one situation that I reached for my gun & that action was understood well enough that the 3 BG's returned to their picnic table. I carry MOB, but they recognized the motion. The responding officer typically knows who's the thug & I've seen several situations that the officer made the decision to not do anything to the citizen. The police know what it takes for us to be approved for the CCW permit, that helps our credibility if they are trying to decide who to cut loose.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

pnnsy plinker

sorry about that! i was one of those lil sob's for a bit of my life and you described it too well. i finally grew up (mentally) and then the size thing went away. but you bring up a good point for guys like you you are at an unfair disadvantage when folks look at you its assumed that the lil guy wouldn't start it. and thats patently untrue.and i can see it placing you at great disadvantage in court.unfairly

 

[KC&97TA]

What was the saying? That went something like, "a mans freedom to swing his arms ends were another mans nose bleeds".

I'm not too into haveing a bloody nose, legal CCW or not, and I'm not about to get any kind of physical force delt to my family or myself

I've also heard the, 'if you're being attacked by 3, kill 2 and try to detain the 3rd'. I'd claim some PTSD, USMC training and just cap everyone that is/was hostile.

 

[LAK]

mdao

You can actually do more than that. According to PC §9.04. Threats as Justifiable Force, displaying your weapon is not a use of deadly force. Rather, it falls under the guidelines for the use of force in PC §9.31. Self-Defense, rather than the stricter guidelines for use of deadly force in PC §9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person.

There is a difference between merely drawing and holding a low ready (for example) and actually pointing it at a person. The latter, without the appropriate justification, constitutes deadly conduct - a felony.

-------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[carpettbaggerr]

You heard SOMEONE threaten to cut off your ears or shoot you, didn't you? I'm sure you heard something like that. Your wife heard that too, RIGHT?

This is silly.

You thought you saw a gun, right?

You heard threatening language, right?

Perjury is a bad idea. It is, however, a good way to get convicted of a crime you didn't commit.

Using a gun to defend yourself when being surrounded by a gang is reasonable, even if no-one in the gang is armed. If you perjure yourself, there's a good chance the cops and DA won't believe you. Then there's a good chance the jury won't believe you. You may have a long time to convince your cellmate of your innocence....

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

+1 for carpettbaggerr

i can't believe some people here putting words in people's mouths. THR members advocating lying and fabricating evidence in order to justify the use of deadly force, or at least, brandishing a firearm.

don't be stupid. why don't we just advocate going to the local gun show and getting some throw-down knives and guns so people can just shoot people for any reason and plant the deadly weapon in their dead hand? geesh.

personally, in the original described situation, being surrounded, outnumbered, and hearing a threat of death should be good enough to justify the brandishing of the firearm for self-defense.

 

[Travis Lee]

Um.. did you guys notice a hypothetical situation, with "legal advice" from a so called "trainer" which if followed looks likely to get the student KILLED?

The scenario as laid out already involved an obvious deadly threat, and overt verbal threats..... and neither of you quibbled THAT.

Check Ebay, maybe you can buy yourself a humor transplant.

:banghead:

Just for the record, I do not advocate perjury or violating any law. And If you and your wife are surrounded by a hostile mob which is making threats, you had better be focused on the reality, rather than hypothetical legal scare stories.

If you can articulate why you feel in imminent fear of death, rape, or grievous bodily injury you should survive the aftermath.... if you can't, you got trouble. You have the right to talk to your attorney before you are questioned. You'd better have one already on speed dial.

 

[RCouch]

I'm 77 yrs. old, with an ioperable heart blockage, two bad hips, arthritis in my right shoulder, one prior back surgery and ready for a second. My ability to take a beating is limited. I'm taking a CHL course shortly and when armed, don't believe I'll wait until the point where it's obvious their going to do bodily harm.

 

[Gbro]

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/articles/index.cfm?id=30928&section=News&freebie_check&CFID=11880042&CFTOKEN=48743424&jsessionid=8830bedbc0883551571b

This should set a percidence for any argument about our use of deadly force.
This is anywhere USA, I am Sooo sorry to say.

IMO Brandishing is an act of assault. You are threatening deadly force prior to being faced with the need for deadly force.
Therefore if i were to be cornered(God forbid circled) my act of drawing my sidearm would be "Protection" Nothing more!

bran·dish (brndsh)
tr.v. bran·dished, bran·dish·ing, bran·dish·es
1. To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly.

Gbro

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

Travis Lee wrote:

Um.. did you guys notice a hypothetical situation, with "legal advice" from a so called "trainer" which if followed looks likely to get the student KILLED?

The scenario as laid out already involved an obvious deadly threat, and overt verbal threats..... and neither of you quibbled THAT.

Travis please reference my post where i wrote:

personally, in the original described situation, being surrounded, outnumbered, and hearing a threat of death should be good enough to justify the brandishing of the firearm for self-defense.

i agreed with the brandishing portion, for self-defense. i am a CHL Instructor for Texas. i would not, however, advocate the fabrication of a statement, like you suggested.

Travis, you continue:

Just for the record, I do not advocate perjury or violating any law.

of course not Travis. that's why you wrote:

You heard SOMEONE threaten to cut off your ears or shoot you, didn't you? I'm sure you heard something like that. Your wife heard that too, RIGHT?

so it appears you advocate some sort of creativity when talking to responding law enforcement, about what REALLY occurred, right?

And If you and your wife are surrounded by a hostile mob which is making threats, you had better be focused on the reality, rather than hypothetical legal scare stories.

you're right, but reality is just that. reality. you don't exaggerate, embellish, or in your case, flat out LIE and tell the cops something that you heard that you know damn well that you didn't. based upon what the original scenario was, yes, he had in my opinion the ability to brandish his weapon in self-defense and retreat. he did not, at that point, have the legal right to shoot anyone.

If you can articulate why you feel in imminent fear of death, rape, or grievous bodily injury you should survive the aftermath.... if you can't, you got trouble. You have the right to talk to your attorney before you are questioned. You'd better have one already on speed dial.

you're right. but hopefully you're talking to your attorney to preserve your rights, not to ask him how to get your tit out of the ringer because you happened to lie to the police.

 

[RCR29]

Unless completely blindsided, why would you consider getting into a physical scuffle with someone while carrying a firearm. Your weapon could be taken away, ending any advantage that you may have in the situation.

 

[LT1coupe]

Consulting an attorney before giving a statement is the right thing to do.
Tell the police as little as possible until after you've discussed it with an attorney, that gives you some time to get yourself together. I don't mean make up a story, but the detective can not "unhear" anything you say. Most people are remorseful & apologetic to a fault. Leaving out details like you were trying to back away for the second time etc can bite you.

 

[Bottom Gun]

I have two thoughts on this matter:

Brushing your jacket or shirttail aside and placing your hand on your gun is NOT brandishing. It is perfectly OK. That action will defuse most situations.

MOB carry is a bad idea. If you go down and hit your spine on your gun, it will take you out of the action. I got my butt reamed once for carrying handcuffs MOB.

My two cents.

 

[up_onus]

I say remember it just needs to be justified enough for the jury to say its ok...
Ill tell you if 5 gang members SURROUNDED me, and they threatened my life?
BANG.

 

[LT1coupe]

Thanks for the MOB info from several, I never really thought about taking a fall on it. I'm going shopping with my wife today & will try to work out a strong side 4 oclock position that works for me.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I just turned 47, I don't know how many hits I can take & maintain control of my weapon while waiting on the BG to show his, so I'll choose to not let anyone start. AZ just recently passed a stand your ground law that allows you to defend yourself in your own home instead of option B of leaving your home instead of endangering the BG's life
I left the class a little disillusioned, or is it just me?

Ask around, pick a good criminal defense attorney, and buy an hour of his time. Ask him (or her) to explain the law to you.

In most states (and please note that I am generalizing here ... I am not saying this is 100% correct for AZ), the point at which you may draw and fire your weapon is the point at which you are in fear that you may be killed OR SUFFER SEVERE BODILY INJURY.

What does that say to you? I know what it says to me. Juries are instructed to apply a "reasonable man" analysis to a case. In other words, if a "reasonable man" would do what you did, you're clear. IMHO, if I am surrounded by multiple persons half my age who proceed to ASSAULT me (laying one hand on me IS assault), I think I would be in fear of at least incurring a breating, and I would not hesitate to haul iron after the first blow or shove. And if they didn't disperse immediately, I don't think I'd hesitate to shoot one or more. I would have already been assaulted, I would be acting in self-defense, and I would be in fear of either death or severe bodily harm.

Brushing your jacket or shirttail aside and placing your hand on your gun is NOT brandishing. It is perfectly OK. That action will defuse most situations.

Depends on the jurisdiction.

I happen to agree with you. By MY definition this would not be brandishing, but the way the laws are written, in some jurisdictions it would be. The Internet is never a substitute for knowing what the law says for the jurisdiction in which you live/operate.

 

[SniperStraz]

Even if that is the law...

... and I'm not sure that it is, you would have to make a judgement call. If that really went down and you truely value your life and of course your wife's, you'd be hard pressed not to draw and fire so fast that 3 seconds later there's smoke coming out of your barrel and your gun is going "click click click" My .02

 

[sacp81170a]

He gave scenarios where gang members were surrounding you & your wife, threatening your life, getting right in your face & shoving you.

Clear cut disparity of force. Several opponents is equivalent to a deadly weapon. They display the capability(numbers), intent(threatening your life, shoving) and the opportunity(surrounding you). Your trainer needs to go back to Use of Force 101. Deadly force is more than justified in the above scenario, but only until the perps break off the attack. If you continue beyond the point they stop their attack, you become the aggressor.

If it were me, BANG!

 

[Byron Quick]

Some states don't have brandishing laws. No such law here in Georgia. Now we have a law against pointing a firearm at another without legal justification. Just nothing about brandishing, placing your hand on your weapon, and such

 

[Outlaws]

Brushing your jacket or shirttail aside and placing your hand on your gun is NOT brandishing. It is perfectly OK. That action will defuse most situations.

Excuse me, but in AZ it is brandishing when you put your hand on the weapon or if you only moved your shirt back for the intent of displaying the weapon. Infact you will more than likely also get charged with threatening someone with a deadly weapon.

Just removing a shirt or jacket to transfer from conceal carry to open carry is not an issue, but doing it with the intent of saying, "look what I got," is not legal here.

 

[Confederate]

I'll look it up, but he showed the way it was worded in class & you had to be in reasonable fear of your life, not in fear of getting beat up.

There might be precious little difference, and how is one to know the outcome? I, myself, would never draw a weapon unless I was in fear for my life. But having been beaten up, I know there's not much of a difference in the long run.

When people begin offensive maneuvers, you're justified in defensive countermanevers. You may choose to sprint out of the way, grasping your gun as you do so. If they match your speed to close, I'd think you could then produce your weapon.

 

[Bottom Gun]

You're excused, Outlaws, but I disagree.
Placing your hand on your gun and leaving it holstered is not brandishing.
Every CCW class I have taken covers that.
From where is your information coming?

 

[LT1coupe]

That was my understanding too. I'm careful where I go & I pay attention, but the AZ laws are different than what I believe in. I have had my hand on my gun twice in my life, niether time did I have to draw. Both times I felt justified, once I definately stopped 3 guys that planned to relieve me of my stuff & the other time I was being evaluated/circled by some guys shoping the parking lot. Here in AZ I need to re think my strategies to keep my self out of trouble.