Brass Chasers

[Prince Yamato]

Was it really necessary to shame the guy? I don't reload at all but I think
yelling at him when you could calmly have told him why he can't be scurrying around would have sufficed.

Drama belongs on stage, not at the gun range.

 

[Dentite]

There are two ways to tell the guy what he's doing isn't safe.

The way you did it will cause him to forever think of you as a d-bag.

Another way could have caused him to actually take it to heart and better understand range safety.

And the way you "would have done it 20 years ago" by punching him could land you in jail and lawyer fees. But wow you are tough right?!

 

[Sam1911]

Seems like a bit of a "dogpile" at this point.

Some folks are insensitive to others, and place their desire to scavenge semi-valuable range brass above propriety, to the point that sometimes even range safety could be compromised. That is not cool, and should not be tolerated. Nobody needs to have a short fuse, though. A carefully chosen, polite but firm, word of correction -- perhaps delivered by the range Staff instead of by the shooter himself -- would be the most appropriate response.

Having said that, I think it safe to at least hope that Remllz's reaction was not quite so over-the-top as it became in the re-telling of it. We all do that from time to time, right? Find ourselves in a terse situation that ends without too much strife, but when the story comes out later there's a little, "I'd ah knocked his head CLEAN OFF iff'n he'd a gimme one reason ta!" thrown in for flavor.

Brass vultures and brass wasters have managed to get along more or less without killing each other for generations now. No real reason I can see for running to any extremes simply to head off the (rare) occasional fellow who gets out of bounds one way or another. Someone's making an unsafe situation, call the range COLD and explain the problem, maybe even use a little psychology: "Hey, we'll all stop so you can pick up that brass, if that's what you want. Maybe next time, though, you could wait for us to be done?" Someone stealing your brass? "Hey, just so you know, I was going to save that. I reload too. But if you're real short, I could spare some. Do you need more?"

Be polite but firm in safety matters. Be forgiving and long-suffering in all other things. Be the good you'd like to see in the world, right?

 

[Strange Bob]

Both actions were wrong!

Have to agree with those who feel a measured calm response to be by far the better path to take. This thread and the guy taking pics at the range thread both picture an unneeded angry response.

I see this as our society becomes a society that percieves itself individually self important. This "me first" society will is sad to me. What happened to politeness? What happened to the common sense approach of an armed society being a polite society?

Very immature if these things went down as relayed here. Danged shame!

 

[Rail Driver]

I've stepped on the fingers of "brass-vultures" before (not on PURPOSE - I'm clumsy like that). It generally keeps them away from me on the firing line. My .45ACP brass isn't cheap, and I pay for it - taking it is no different than stealing from me.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Why can't common sense win, just once?

This pretty much says it all for me.

I scrounge for brass myself, but not around people's lane and not when I think the brass may belong to someone else when they're still standing there.
I do watch people shoot and silently hope that they leave their brass behind when they leave. I only shoot at an outdoor range BTW. I have also seen people about to start picking up their brass, and noticed they were shooting ammo from factory boxes. I have asked if they handload. If they say yes, it has at times led to an interesting conversation. If they say no, I tell them I do and that I would be glad to pick their brass up for them. It saves them time and keeps me in brass. Win-win.

But don't be an idiot, like the guy the OP is talking about. Be respectful, and considerate. Walking near someone else and picking up brass they just shot is just plain stealing.

 

[Double Vision]

Recently a guy at my outdoor range was wandering around with one of the brass roller devices picking up everything in sight - including my .45 ACP brass while it was still being ejected!

I caught him out of the corner of my eye. Since the line was still hot I had to give him the international look and hand signal for "don't touch my brass".

 

[blarby]

Huge difference between the bad lot, and the good lot.

Sorry you encountered a "vulture".

Not all of us are that way.

 

[qwert65]

I usually have people ask me if I reload and since I don't they usually pick up my brass for me- win-win
However, if someone is a half step behind someone's knees on a HOT range(allowing someone to fall backward with finger on the trigger), they deserve a punch in the mouth.

 

[Sam1911]

if someone is a half step behind someone's knees on a HOT range(allowing someone to fall backward with finger on the trigger), they deserve a punch in the mouth.

Why do we go right to the caveman-dumb ape response? Hey, that's guy's causing a potentially dangerous condition. I think the best thing to do is commit assault!

Folks, we have GOT to be better than this.

And, further, we have GOT to stop lying to ourselves and each other. I'll wager there's not one of us reading this that would even consider for a second striking (i.e. "assaulting") another man just because he was too close behind, picking up brass. Even if he was stealing (Oh, the horrors!) your brass our from under you.

And if you would -- you really, really would -- LEAVE. You're going to (rightfully) end up in jail and we don't want to be associated with you in any way!

 

[Rail Driver]

Why do we go right to the caveman-dumb ape response? Hey, that's guy's causing a potentially dangerous condition. I think the best thing to do is commit assault!

Folks, we have GOT to be better than this.

And, further, we have GOT to stop lying to ourselves and each other. I'll wager there's not one of us reading this that would even consider for a second striking (i.e. "assaulting") another man just because he was too close behind, picking up brass. Even if he was stealing (Oh, the horrors!) your brass our from under you.

And if you would -- you really, really would -- LEAVE. You're going to (rightfully) end up in jail and we don't want to be associated with you in any way!

While I agree with Sam1911, to a point - I'm also of the opinion that stupidity should be painful.

Stealing my brass is a crime - criminal negligence (crawling around on the ground at my feet while I'm shooting) is also a crime - You should hear the laughter from the county sheriff's office when you call to report something like that.

A "stern talking to" usually does about as much good as calling the cops to be laughed at.

So lets get right down to the point - We can't assault the guy for having the nerve to endanger the lives of everyone on the shooting line and the gall to steal my brass out from under me before it even has a chance to cool... Talking to him is unlikely to do any good or prevent it from happening again... The cops don't think such a petty crime is worth a response... Where does that leave us? Suck it up and deal with it or leave? Sorry, but carrying a gun imparts certain responsibilities - folding at the first sign of opposition and refusing to speak up for yourself are not part of that.

 

[Ryanxia]

Generally if you're picking up someone else's brass you ask or wait for them to pack up and leave. And that's what most people do.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Rail Driver, you're right that while technically a crime, it would get laughed at by the authorities. However, if you resort to physical violence, they will not laugh. They will come, rather quickly, and you will be charged with battery, which is both a crime and a tort, so not only will you be in trouble legally, but likely have to pay some sort of restitution to the idiot you hit, even though he was an idiot.

It boils down to, "Is it worth it?" And it's not. Not by a long shot. Now, by all means, tell the moron to step away from you and/or your brass. You're also correct in that a stern talking will do as much good as anything. You're also right that we have a right to speak up for ourselves. But violence should be an absolute last resort in any situation, not the first thing that pops into our heads.

Sam pretty much nailed it for me. We need a "like" button on here for posts like that.

 

[Sam1911]

Stealing my brass is a crime

Pretty petty crime, that. And quite arguable, considering that the range may have claims on the brass, and that it is a generally (though not necessarily, of course) discarded, waste item. So it falls in seriousness between someone stealing a few loose coins you left on the bench and someone stealing the sunflower seed shells you spat out on the ground. We're going to "man up" and give someone hell over this? And expect the law, or society, to side with us against this outrage?

criminal negligence (crawling around on the ground at my feet while I'm shooting) is also a crime

Er...no one has been hurt or even grossly inconvenienced here. Crawling around on the ground is pretty par for the course at shooting ranges, as many of us do collect brass. We all need to watch what we're doing, but there is no crime being committed here just because this guy might have, hypothetically contributed to a dangerous condition by his presence.

And if there IS a crime being committed here, it is NOT one that rises to the standard of giving you an affirmative defense for assault.

You should hear the laughter from the county sheriff's office when you call to report something like that.

Yes...quite.

A "stern talking to" usually does about as much good as calling the cops to be laughed at.

That's not my experience at all. A polite word diffuses 99% (actually far more than that) of the daily potential conflicts and frictions most of us will ever face. Why should we expect this to be different?

But if a polite word doesn't do it, the range Staff certainly will (and DID!). So what are we worrying about here? We have to "man up" and bust this guy down for his mistakes? Why? What's the point? How are we so fragile that we've been insufferably harmed and must defend the right? Be the bigger man, folks. None of this comes close to being nearly within sight of shouting distance of something we aught to assault someone over, go to jail over, or maybe get ourselves KILLED over. Where in the world is our perspective? Are we this messed up?

So lets get right down to the point - We can't assault the guy for having the nerve to endanger the lives of everyone on the shooting line and the gall to steal my brass out from under me before it even has a chance to cool...

... no, we can't... OBVIOUSLY...

...Talking to him is unlikely to do any good or prevent it from happening again...

...again, in what world? It sure seems to work in mine! And if it doesn't? Oh well! I'm out a few cents worth of brass and maybe even decided to walk off the line to avoid this guy. We preach avoid, de-escalate, and escape in S,T,&T all the time. But we need to throw our street smarts and civility out the window when we're on the range of all places?

The cops don't think such a petty crime is worth a response... Where does that leave us? Suck it up and deal with it or leave? Sorry, but carrying a gun imparts certain responsibilities - folding at the first sign of opposition and refusing to speak up for yourself are not part of that.

WHAT? There's a huge gap between "suck it up" and "leave" and that huge gap is the space in which polite people deal with the petty differences, annoyances, and frictions that inevitably happen between people everywhere. That's how society WORKS. Not by bluster and bluff and assault. Not by stridency and domination and demanding your due. But by discussion and compromise, and selflessness.

And if the principles of polite society don't resolve the conflict? Yeah, then you give the guy space and remove yourself from the problem. There's nothing on that line that's worth assault, injury, jail, death, or even heartburn.

We must chill.

 

[GEM]

I've seen the stern talking to some person who wanders in front of the shooter making ready at an IDPA match. Said person had to find other place to shoot for a bit.

Shoot Blazer Aluminum, solves the problem.

 

[Rail Driver]

However, if you resort to physical violence, they will not laugh. ...

It boils down to, "Is it worth it?" And it's not. Not by a long shot.

Sam pretty much nailed it for me. We need a "like" button on here for posts like that.

You'll note that nowhere in my post did I condone hitting someone.

As I mentioned before, I've dealt with brass vultures in the past, even to the point of accidentally stepping on their hands more than once and not feeling bad about it - Does that make me a cave-ape? I don't think so. Would I stomp somebody's hands purposefully in a similar situation? Of course not. Will I feel bad if I accidentally step on someone else's hands while they're cherry picking my brass as I drop it? Not a chance.

The point is that not saying something directly to the person doing these things does nothing more than confirm in their minds that what they are doing is ok. This results in the practice becoming more common as people see that nobody says or does anything about it. Eventually you've got a whole generation of shooters running around up and down the firing line, killing each other over empty brass casings and causing accidents in their rush to get that last treasured .357 casing.

Part of being a responsible shooter is educating other shooters that you see doing unsafe things - Lecturing a brass vulture is an annoyance, but I believe it's necessary.

 

[BSA1]

The brass chaser was there first policing his brass.

Was there some reason why you could not have waited until he was done?

 

[kimbershot]

i ask folks if i can chase brass if it appears that they don't want it. i get positive results, don't get in anyone's way and am not greedy. this way if i shoot 100 rounds, i generally retrieve 120--so i am always on the positive.

the range also sorts and sells once fired brass on the cheap.

 

[alsaqr]

But if a polite word doesn't do it, the range Staff certainly will (and DID!). So what are we worrying about here? We have to "man up" and bust this guy down for his mistakes? Why? What's the point? How are we so fragile that we've been insufferably harmed and must defend the right? Be the bigger man, folks. None of this comes close to being nearly within sight of shouting distance of something we aught to assault someone over, go to jail over, or maybe get ourselves KILLED over. Where in the world is our perspective? Are we this messed up?

What Sam 1911 said.

 

[qwert65]

punching the guy would be a dumb thing to do I agree. However, according to the OP he had already talked to the guy about it. Since there is a RO at this range the OP did the 100% correct thing.
Indulge me for a minute though on how potentially dangerous this guys actions were.
What if the OP had gotten hurt? What if it was an older frail shooter? If you're a senior citizen on a limited budget(obviously varies by location)Most of the ranges you can afford to shoot at don't have supervision. Remember this person has already been asked. The stealing to me is unimportant compared to the potential danger involved.
As for jumping straight to violence, most people who have been asked once don't respond any different a second time. In this case he was sent from the range(punished). Some people need to be reminded to be polite.

 

[Double Vision]

And, further, we have GOT to stop lying to ourselves and each other. I'll wager there's not one of us reading this that would even consider for a second striking (i.e. "assaulting") another man...

Amen to that.

Yesterday I was in line at Lowes buying a huge cartload of gardening supplies. There was a problem at the register on my line, and the cashier moved to the other register to help customers. A lady with a flower pot immediately walked up and took first place in line. The guy behind me quickly fell in line behind her. Two more people jumped the line, and suddenly I'm standing alone on line at an empty register with 500 pounds of cart.

I was fuming. I thought to myself, "I'd like to punch that guy right in the nose!"

I was glad I didn't. When it was his turn, that guy waved me ahead, saying "you were next."
I thanked him, my trust in human kindness re-affirmed.

 

[Sam1911]

Agreed -- it was resolved by talking it over. Maybe it got louder than it needed to be, which sucks, but the range staff intervened and the offending person was removed. Shame it had to come to that, but we weren't there and didn't hear the exchange.

If there's no supervision? No way to enforce your claim to the brass and your safety space? And this guy really doesn't listen the second time? Leave. Obvious answer. If we agree that we won't (in the immortal words) "go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times" in order that we may aviod the kinds of trouble that such places, people, things, and times attract -- how then can we not see our way clear to leave a bad situation we see developing at the range (or wherever else)?

"But that's not fair?" Heck. Life isn't fair. Hitting, assaulting, or even getting into a shouting match with some jerk who won't let us enjoy the range our way in peace and safety doesn't increase the quality of our range experience or our own safety in any way.

 

[skeeziks]

What I recently started doing is to bring a first-basemens glove & a big shopping bag to the range and what I do is I stand to the side of the shooter to my left and catch the brass as it's ejected and dump it in the bag (which is clearly marked with my name, so no one will think I'm stealing.)
I feel I'm doing a service to all who shoot there by keeping some of the spent casings off the floor where someone could potentially slip & fall.

 

[Rail Driver]

Agreed -- it was resolved by talking it over. Maybe it got louder than it needed to be, which sucks, but the range staff intervened and the offending person was removed. Shame it had to come to that, but we weren't there and didn't hear the exchange.

If there's no supervision? No way to enforce your claim to the brass and your safety space? And this guy really doesn't listen the second time? Leave. Obvious answer. If we agree that we won't (in the immortal words) "go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times" in order that we may aviod the kinds of trouble that such places, people, things, and times attract -- how then can we not see our way clear to leave a bad situation we see developing at the range (or wherever else)?

"But that's not fair?" Heck. Life isn't fair. Hitting, assaulting, or even getting into a shouting match with some jerk who won't let us enjoy the range our way in peace and safety doesn't increase the quality of our range experience or our own safety in any way.

So where do his rights end and mine begin? What makes his rights more important or more applicable than mine? Where's the balance? What rights are too small or unimportant to defend, or is it just the "big ones" or the "important ones" that we should defend?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue here - I'm honestly searching for the answer - I understand the value of politeness in the face of rude behavior, and even the tactical use of politeness to either de-escalate or defuse a situation.

 

[Sam1911]

So where do his rights end and mine begin? What makes his rights more important or more applicable than mine? Where's the balance? What rights are too small or unimportant to defend, or is it just the "big ones" or the "important ones" that we should defend?

Rights? You have rights, and you have repercussions. You can incur terrible repercussions while trying to exercise your rights. The only Constitutional guarantees are that the government is not supposed to infringe some of your rights. If another citizen infringes what you feel are your rights, you have the option to "stand up for yourself," work it out with them, or back down and let it go.

"Standing up for yourself" tends to end badly. I've got the RIGHT to walk down Warren Street in Detroit at 2:00 am wearing a pair of Rolexes on each arm and waving the Stars and Bars. Chances are I will suffer consequences because I exercised those rights. That's not fair. But it's life.

Now, you DON'T have the right to assault this guy in our scenario, period. Even if he's stealing your brass. You can say almost anything to him you like, if you feel you need to. If you're aggressive and loud trying to back him down, that may work. Or it may encourage a similar response from him (look up Rory Miller's "Monkey Dance" concept) and you may both end up in jail, or shot for what its worth.

Talking to the guy and trying to work out a solution that meets both your needs probably will work. If it doesn't, you can go to the range Staff and have THEM take it up a notch. (In larger issues, I'd put legal civil lawsuits into this category. That's still working it out with words, but you're asking the State to give you a hand.)

Again, though, if none of this works, you have to suck it up and leave. You really aren't out much. A few dollars worth of brass and a range trip cut short, maybe. That's peanuts in life's grand scheme. You lived, you're still a free man, your blood pressure's a little up, but it will come down again. (Grab a good beer and a rare steak for dinner...I hear it calms the nerves and is good for the heart! ) Take up the matter with whatever range authority is in place -- later if you have to. They don't want unsafe conditions and rude patrons any more than you want to have to deal with them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue here - I'm honestly searching for the answer - I understand the value of politeness in the face of rude behavior, and even the tactical use of politeness to either de-escalate or defuse a situation.

Yup. Those are very valuable skills, but the biggest one is just perspective. What harm has this jerk really done? What harm am I willing to do, or to suffer, to attempt to defend my own interests? Is there nothing I can do to work this out with the guy and we all go on a little better for having had this chat? If not? That's really too bad. Think I'll go grab that beer.