Certaindeaf
member
People in real life are by and large eminently gracious. Most times I am truly humbled and proud of humanity. However, when I get head butted in the groin by some brass theif, graciousness ceases.
Brass Chasers
- Thread starter Remllez
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I'll add one other note that may be of some merit:
When things do go very badly, like when one guy assaults or shoots another, and someone tries to claim self-defense, the prosecutor looks at the totality of the situation before he agrees to accept your self-defense claim.
(Or, if he does not accept your claim, the jury will look at the totality of the situation.)
If your actions are seen to have lead to escalating a situation to assault or homicide -- no matter how much you might have been "right" in the small initial disagreement -- your self-defense claim is shot.
Now, I can't really imagine any of us would go to guns over a few cents worth of brass, or because someone else might have been causing some potential danger, but these things start small, and you never really know this other guy you're dealing with.
If he's socially awkward enough to insist on violating your space and stealing your brass -- after being told not to -- who knows what circuits are shorted up in his head?
If you get in an argument with this guy, and it escalates, and you end up shooting him in self defense, you're going to have a real hard time proving that you were not "mutual combatants." Mutual combatants do not have the luxury of a self-defense claim. One's dead and one's guilty of manslaughter. That's a bad way to end the range trip.
The judge is not going to instruct the jury, "Now remember, the deceased DID actually steal the Defendant's brass...so maybe Mr. Jones is not really at fault here."
When you stand up for yourself, and engage in argument and low-level violence, you share the blame for whatever ends may come.
When things do go very badly, like when one guy assaults or shoots another, and someone tries to claim self-defense, the prosecutor looks at the totality of the situation before he agrees to accept your self-defense claim.
(Or, if he does not accept your claim, the jury will look at the totality of the situation.)
If your actions are seen to have lead to escalating a situation to assault or homicide -- no matter how much you might have been "right" in the small initial disagreement -- your self-defense claim is shot.
Now, I can't really imagine any of us would go to guns over a few cents worth of brass, or because someone else might have been causing some potential danger, but these things start small, and you never really know this other guy you're dealing with.
If he's socially awkward enough to insist on violating your space and stealing your brass -- after being told not to -- who knows what circuits are shorted up in his head?
If you get in an argument with this guy, and it escalates, and you end up shooting him in self defense, you're going to have a real hard time proving that you were not "mutual combatants." Mutual combatants do not have the luxury of a self-defense claim. One's dead and one's guilty of manslaughter. That's a bad way to end the range trip.
The judge is not going to instruct the jury, "Now remember, the deceased DID actually steal the Defendant's brass...so maybe Mr. Jones is not really at fault here."
When you stand up for yourself, and engage in argument and low-level violence, you share the blame for whatever ends may come.
jcwit
member
I believe your rights end at the tip of the other persons nose or any other body part that belongs to him, unless he is doing something illegal.
Why do folks think they have the right to just go punching/assaulting other people when things do not go their way. Lot of anger out there for very little reason. Do they actually think they are that important.
Why do folks think they have the right to just go punching/assaulting other people when things do not go their way. Lot of anger out there for very little reason. Do they actually think they are that important.
Sam1911, well put. People seem to confuse freedom of speech, rights, responsiblity, and consequences. As you said, you have the freedom to do all sorts of things because you have the right to do so. Whether it's wise is the consequence of doing so. People get upset that their freedom of speech got them in trouble. Yeah well, threatening someone can make that happen. The freedom part doesn't disconnect said statements from the responsibility of making them.
I see I'm now off in the weeds... steers back onto topic. Was it wise for the guy to get right behind a shooter? No. Was it wise to trip someone who's holding a loaded pistol? No. Yelling at him for it? That could go either way.
I see I'm now off in the weeds... steers back onto topic. Was it wise for the guy to get right behind a shooter? No. Was it wise to trip someone who's holding a loaded pistol? No. Yelling at him for it? That could go either way.
CountryUgly
Member
I see nothing wrong with you doing that and if I was in your shoes I'd wear a T-Shirt with Brass Hound on both sides and carry one of those handy grabbers (they really save your back) labeled Litter Control. Just wait till the line is cold to scavenge.I've recently gotten back into shooting and last year, I decided to start reloading. That said, I find myself walking around the range, looking down a lot.
I try to be courteous to others around me and show interest in their firearms as well as what I'm shooting. I'm always learning. Our range has a rule that if the person shooting doesn't mind, so long as the brass is on the floor, you can pick it up WHEN SAFE TO DO SO. If it goes in the trash can, it's the range's brass.
I've asked some folks around me if they reload and, if not, would they mind me picking up the brass if it's a caliber that I reload. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they don't. That's fine and I respect that but, I still can't get past the feeling of being the kid in the lunchroom saying, "Uh, yeah, you gonna eat that?"
Some say you get over it, sometimes I think it also helps keep us courteous.
Either way, I don't believe there is any place for guns around heated tempers.
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
1) I, am a brass, and lead whore.
2) I, am respectful of other's brass, and expect them to be respectful of mine.
3) If a range is populated by shooter's who upon hearing a loud voice will cause them to uncontrollably spray the range down in 360 degree fire may prove the anti's are right about us.
4) Most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday. It is the control of this urge that make's us the highest on the food chain.
Sometime a loud, rude remark is all that will penetrat someone's mind. The OP was not in the wrong. I, might approach it a little differently, but the urge to punch the vaulter would be there.
I, think a year suspension is a little harsh, but only a little.
2) I, am respectful of other's brass, and expect them to be respectful of mine.
3) If a range is populated by shooter's who upon hearing a loud voice will cause them to uncontrollably spray the range down in 360 degree fire may prove the anti's are right about us.
4) Most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday. It is the control of this urge that make's us the highest on the food chain.
Sometime a loud, rude remark is all that will penetrat someone's mind. The OP was not in the wrong. I, might approach it a little differently, but the urge to punch the vaulter would be there.
I, think a year suspension is a little harsh, but only a little.
I fully support all the brass rats out there who gather more than they'll ever need then sell it off cheap just to get rid of it. 
However, having never been to a public range nor planning on ever going to one, I don't have to deal with them or any of the other consequences of enjoying my hobby alongside people I don't know, trust, or care to associate with.
ETA:
And also, they ain't hafta deal with me.
However, having never been to a public range nor planning on ever going to one, I don't have to deal with them or any of the other consequences of enjoying my hobby alongside people I don't know, trust, or care to associate with.
ETA:
And also, they ain't hafta deal with me.
Last edited:
I have read the original post about 5 times and cannot determine if the firing line was on ready or cease fire. To me that would make a good bit of difference. Where I shoot we have no target in and out system on the pistol range. However if this was a case of someone crawling on the floor 1/2 step behind me on a firing position. I would have been yelling for a cease fire as loud as I possibly could. The individual crawling for brass would have been a safety hazard due to the possibility of tripping me with a firearm in full battery. I would not have sought physical remonstrance but would have tried to ban the guy for life, his as well as the other persons who could have been injured. Anyone crawling within a step behind a "HOT" firing position is just looking to collect thier Darwin award.
blindhari
blindhari
Steve CT
Member
So he got thrown off the range for a year, and you didn't punch him (like you would have 20 years ago) but sounds like you wanted to?
Frankly, I'm glad I'm not on the range with you.
IMHO-Sam1911 has it right here
Frankly, I'm glad I'm not on the range with you.
IMHO-Sam1911 has it right here
MachIVshooter
Member
I, think commas, should, be used, with some restraint.
Seriously, it can be just as difficult to follow what you're saying when you overpunctuate as when it's lacking.
On your #4 point; I don't believe "most normal human's feel the urge to punch someone everyday". Overly hostile folks might, but I think the average person has many levels of irritation before the wanting to swing point is reached, and I don't think it happens every day to normal people.
Powerglide
Member
Let's be real freakin honest.The feller was in the guys space at the wrong time while the guy was either shooting or standing. Period.But that doesn't mean punch or shoot.At least not that early in the confrontation.Lot's of options to go thru first.
Nushif
Member
I feel the urge to at least tackle people quite regularly, but I will be the first to admit that I am as my wife puts it "a little jumpy." Call it an occupational hazard.
But I will agree with the poster that said that impulse control is a very important trait in a person. One of the lousiest people I've met have had the least impulse control, for sure.
But to keep this forearms related, even me, who is "a little jumpy" doesn't feel this urge to punch people for carelessness. Was it careless? Sure. Does it need a new range rule to boot everyone who ever picks up a piece of brass again? Nope. Does the guy need to be told "Hey, you spiked my adrenaline real hard there. How about you keep your distance?" Absolutely.
jcwit
member
Then in your world I'm obviously not normal. One of the better things about being brought up and living in a small town with lots and lots of friendly helpful folks.
Arkansas Paul
Member
4) Most JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL KIDS feel the urge to punch someone everyday.
There. Fixed it for you.
Adults prefer solve problems in nonviolent ways, unless they are in physical danger and there is no other alternative.
mgmorden
Member
As with what everyone said, I believe there may have been a tad bit of an overreaction here. The guy obviously was in the way, but it sounds like someone's pride may have been hurt a wee bit due to a stumble.
As to the brass stealing thing, there are two things that came to mind here:
1. There are a few cues in the original post that suggest to me that the OP may have been stating that this guy was picking up his own brass that was being thrown into that vicinity. If he's picking up his own brass that went over there he's still not right, but the level of response becomes even more suspect.
2. As has already been noted, though its not ALWAYS the case, brass is often regarded as a waste item. Its the trash our guns spew out. A few save it to reload, but not many (the stat is elevated somewhere like a gun forum, but the ranges as a whole aren't populated by people as dedicated as the members of such a forum). Some people may assume without asking that the person doesn't want it. Again, a bit presumptuous, but I can see somebody doing it. In particular, if it indeed was the OP's brass, then being a revolver shooter if you're dumping empties on the floor most people are going to assume you're not saving them. Still not right to touch without asking, but in reality myself and every other person I know who shoots revolvers and handloads will drop the empties into a bucket or a box or something.
And as always, I think Sam1911 is secretly the gun-Budda or something. Always wise words.
As to the brass stealing thing, there are two things that came to mind here:
1. There are a few cues in the original post that suggest to me that the OP may have been stating that this guy was picking up his own brass that was being thrown into that vicinity. If he's picking up his own brass that went over there he's still not right, but the level of response becomes even more suspect.
2. As has already been noted, though its not ALWAYS the case, brass is often regarded as a waste item. Its the trash our guns spew out. A few save it to reload, but not many (the stat is elevated somewhere like a gun forum, but the ranges as a whole aren't populated by people as dedicated as the members of such a forum). Some people may assume without asking that the person doesn't want it. Again, a bit presumptuous, but I can see somebody doing it. In particular, if it indeed was the OP's brass, then being a revolver shooter if you're dumping empties on the floor most people are going to assume you're not saving them. Still not right to touch without asking, but in reality myself and every other person I know who shoots revolvers and handloads will drop the empties into a bucket or a box or something.
And as always, I think Sam1911 is secretly the gun-Budda or something. Always wise words
.Powerglide
Member
Just become a corrections officer.You'll learn real quick how to "deal" with fools.You'll also learn that "making nice" can save you.
Nushif
Member
Lul, actually not. But I'll claim it.
bbuddtec
Member
not a brass chaser problem, its a moron problem. Solution seems extreme, but I wasn't there.
Beaux Nehr
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
- Messages
- 460
I agree with Sam1911 on almost every point.
The world would be a lot better place if more people had common sense, and less people liked to puff themselves up at the expense of those they perceive not to have common sense. (Yes, I'm aware of my circular logic)
The world would be a lot better place if more people had common sense, and less people liked to puff themselves up at the expense of those they perceive not to have common sense. (Yes, I'm aware of my circular logic)
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
How wet is water.
I, am sure the O.P. is using his dramatic license to tell his story, and to describe his feeling's about the incident.
I am pretty sure that the vast majority of people who feel moment's of anger, rage, and violence, are also able to say please, thank you, I'm sorry, and even chew with their mouth closed.
Good manner's, and politeness is something most of us will start to learn, and use at a very young age, and continue to learn, and use throw out our live's. Many of the most important of these lesson's will be learned, as stated by another poster, in junior high, and high school. Even I, a polite, and well mannered teenager growing up in the metropolis of 2000 people had to wake up in a puddle of my own blood on a couple of occasion's because of rude behavyer.
This is my long winded way of saying that someone yelling at another person when they are acting rude, and dangerous is not out of bound's.
Could the O.P. have allowed the vulture to finish scrounging the spot? Yes.
Could the vulture have asked to finish scrounging the spot? Yes. Would the O.P. have let him? I, don't know. I, would of. Should the vulture have been disciplined? Yes.
I, think that a year is a little harsh, unless this is not the first time it happened. If that is the case maybe this was the range's way of ridding themselves of a problem.
Also, just for the record, my son graduated from high school last week. He attended the 3rd largest district in the county, and we had to bring in one of the local farmer's cow to even out the ceremony. Or was she the prom queen, I couldn't tell.
For the three, or four people on THR, who have no since of humor, that last paragraph is what is known as a joke.
I, am sure the O.P. is using his dramatic license to tell his story, and to describe his feeling's about the incident.
I am pretty sure that the vast majority of people who feel moment's of anger, rage, and violence, are also able to say please, thank you, I'm sorry, and even chew with their mouth closed.
Good manner's, and politeness is something most of us will start to learn, and use at a very young age, and continue to learn, and use throw out our live's. Many of the most important of these lesson's will be learned, as stated by another poster, in junior high, and high school. Even I, a polite, and well mannered teenager growing up in the metropolis of 2000 people had to wake up in a puddle of my own blood on a couple of occasion's because of rude behavyer.
This is my long winded way of saying that someone yelling at another person when they are acting rude, and dangerous is not out of bound's.
Could the O.P. have allowed the vulture to finish scrounging the spot? Yes.
Could the vulture have asked to finish scrounging the spot? Yes. Would the O.P. have let him? I, don't know. I, would of. Should the vulture have been disciplined? Yes.
I, think that a year is a little harsh, unless this is not the first time it happened. If that is the case maybe this was the range's way of ridding themselves of a problem.
Also, just for the record, my son graduated from high school last week. He attended the 3rd largest district in the county, and we had to bring in one of the local farmer's cow to even out the ceremony. Or was she the prom queen, I couldn't tell.
For the three, or four people on THR, who have no since of humor, that last paragraph is what is known as a joke.
ny32182
Member
If it went down like the OP said, as the RO I'd have thrown the OP out rather than the brass chaser, assuming that picking up brass is accepted at that range.
But, I think the reality is that many of us have better social skills in person than on the internet. In all my time on ranges, and I spend a lot of time on ranges, I have never once seen anyone come to blows over a few cents worth of brass. And, I've never seen anyone picking up brass when they should not have been require more than one polite reminder for them to stop.
But even then I have noticed that there is a statisticaly not-insignificant percentage of men who seem to be on edge at shooting ranges (same thing while golfing... same sport, different equipment)... the only thing I can figure is that they have some kind of performance anxiety for lack of a better term. And even then, they all can make it through without getting into a fistfight.
But, I think the reality is that many of us have better social skills in person than on the internet. In all my time on ranges, and I spend a lot of time on ranges, I have never once seen anyone come to blows over a few cents worth of brass. And, I've never seen anyone picking up brass when they should not have been require more than one polite reminder for them to stop.
But even then I have noticed that there is a statisticaly not-insignificant percentage of men who seem to be on edge at shooting ranges (same thing while golfing... same sport, different equipment)... the only thing I can figure is that they have some kind of performance anxiety for lack of a better term. And even then, they all can make it through without getting into a fistfight.
W.E.G.
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