Break In -- What do you do?

[RonDeer10mm]

Well in my case Im usually the one doing the waking but if Im the one being waked, Id tell my family members to call 911 and sit tight in the room with me and be as quiet as possible (so I could have an Idea were the BG is and what he's doing) and to get in a prone position on their stomachs and away from the door (the bad guy could have a gun too!) I will be in the same position too aiming at the door if the intruder trys to get too close.
When the cops arrive I will tell them what happened, I will go to the fridge and throw out all the food for safety reasons.

 

[RonDeer10mm]

C) is closest to my response, so ITS C for me.

 

[Sam1911]

May we keep this in the real world? It's not an assassination.

Really? Ok. I didn't know which kind of violent home invasion you were planning to have.




But seriously, what about the armed bad guy in the car outside, the lookout, or the rest of the gang? There are many realistic situations that don't require assassination as a primary goal, but which still involve multiple hostile individuals, and not all in one place.

If you can get out, cleanly, you should do so.

Maybe. If you are sure your path is clear. But being sure your path is clear involves a lot of skill and quite a bit of luck. It could be the route you need to take. But it might not be the best decision, either. If that's part of your planning, you'd better practice how you'd do it and what you need to watch out for.

 

[1stmarine]

Sam1911,
Good advice.

Use all your senses. you also can learn that in training not just shooting.
Training is not just to train the finger but acquire a mental attitude.
Being ready doesn't mean being ready to jump at once.

Cheers,
e.

 

[David E]

Personally, if at all possible, I'd prefer to avoid the latter situation and advantage myself by cleanly fleeing the scene while I still can.

You don't have kids, do you.

 

[David E]

Was it a book falling off a shelf? The cat chasing a mouse? The wind?

Maybe. Probably. 99.9% sure !!

You can use your other senses to discern what might be taking place and whether that call to the police and hunkering down is reasonable

Obviously.

or if maybe after 10 minutes you should go put the cat out and double check your locks.

No, I'm going to do a search and do it right to remove that .1% nagging doubt

 

[LAK]

I have a big problem with this issue of "clearing rooms" etc. There are some points to bear in mind before it is accepted that the "untrained" not do anything else other than hunker down in the bedroom and call 911.

First and foremost, when the cavalry arrives they are not going (or likely) to say "OK, we're coming in", and make their way to your position and rescue you.

No, they are not going to come in; at least it is very unlikely. It depends on your local agency's policy on such responses. But it is more likely that they are going to call or shout for YOU to come out.

You have a big problem now - with a potentially higher level of risk than before the police arrived. If any shooting starts, the police have no idea who is shooting at who.

So you have to leave your defensive position, and move through the very areas you are "untrained" to clear - but are now magically qualified to pass through. If you run into your uninvited guest(s) on the way to the door you are potentially in a firefight. The cavalry are at the very least at bay and at the very worst a liabilty to your health.

My opinion is that one should be king of one's own castle. Make it Your Castle. If you are in rented property, a trailer or dwelling with special considerations your options may be alittle limited on some issues. Do what you can.

Make the inside a system of lighting and reflective objects, mirrors, where you are in control of visibility, effective cover. Consider directional lighting controlled from the bedroom or other location(s), strobe lights etc.

If someone does breach your castle walls, by all means call 911. But you should be able to establish control of as large a portion of the dwelling as possible with the goal of securing a passage to an outer door.

Forget the posturing and other visual images commonly associated with co-ordinated teams clearing rooms. Be intimately familiar with your tools, handling them as you do when you practice, with confident precision and economy of movement. Avoid quick movements. Move very slowly instead. Be stealthy.

When you are not moving and just listening, be completely still. Look by moving your eyes, not your head when possible. When you must move, move very slowly. In trying to remain unseen, movement will nearly always be your first betrayer.

Step toe to heel. Avoid anything that makes noise

If you are alone, or your wife is to remain in the "safe" area, take your handgun(s), handheld inspection mirror, flashlight, long gun (if you have and prefer one) and move slowly using your five senses. Move little - stop, listen and look alot.

If your wife is actively involved it should be primarily as a rearguard, and cover when moving through rooms, open areas etc.

Use the handheld mirror to clear blindspots like doorways etc. These will be your most vulnerable points. At blind spots you should use the mirror weakhand, positioned low to the floor, crouched on one knee. If active, wife standing back covering high, including the opposite direction you are scanning.

You should plan and practice these things with your wife if she is going to be active.

Unless your invader(s) are professional thieves with no intention of stirring a confrontation, it should not take long for them to make some sounds and or movements that should enable you to zero in on their general position. Remember that if there are more than one of them, they may not stay together.

It is almost certain you will confront them. Either they will come your way, or you might be compelled to displace them and drive them out. At least this will occur on your terms - at least with less surprise on your part. If you are fortunate they will leave the way they came in before this happens, or before or as the police arrive.

If not you are going to have to challenge them, and it should be from some form of cover. Best is with strong directional lighting, fixed oir handheld. And rather than a "hands up", a strong "get out get out get out" - suggesting and giving them an exit.

----------------------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[bobbarker]

At this point in time, I'd choose C as it's just me and my wife.

Now, each situation, and each house is different, so clearing the house isn't a bad idea for everyone. It's not the ideal answer, but may be necessary for a variety of reasons. I will say, however, I've cleared training houses, and I've cleared houses in Iraq. There is a reason the preferred method is 4+ guys in body armor. The reason you want 4? Because entering the room is the most dangerous thing you can do. There is a natural funnel there, and one or more of those people in the funnel is going to get shot. This is not an acceptable risk if it can be avoided. Also, an item of note, an 80% casualty rate is considered a success in a CQB/clearing operation.

Also, as David E. said, sometimes you think you hear something, and then you hear nothing after that. In this case, I do grab the gun and surefire and check things out, so I'll be able to sleep.

 

[Sam1911]

We've said it before: The only time that it is safe to clear your house is when there is nothing there to find. Best to use every possible other method to make sure that's the case before you do your check.

 

[M2 Carbine]

My house is small and I live alone, so I go for
E- Have a shootout pretty quick, whether or not I want one,
or,
F- My favorite. Try and get out of the house and wait to shoot the BG's when they come out. My first choice HD gun is a Red Dot, laser/light equipped AR, so I'd rather get in a gunfight outside and at night.
Besides, my rugs would stay clean.




.

 

[BigMustard]

I would choose C. Also advising the police that I am heavily armed and they should announce their presence repeatedly upon entering my residence.

 

[Sam1911]

wait to shoot the BG's when they come out

I know you're joking, but just for clarity, it would NOT be a good idea to shoot someone leaving your home. If the threat is vacating, there is no justification for using lethal force.

(Yes, in TX, sometimes you can get away with that, but even it TX, it's always a good thing to be able to survive a violent encounter without having to kill anyone.)

 

[M2 Carbine]

I know you're joking, but just for clarity, it would NOT be a good idea to shoot someone leaving your home. If the threat is vacating, there is no justification for using lethal force.

(Yes, in TX, sometimes you can get away with that, but even it TX, it's always a good thing to be able to survive a violent encounter without having to kill anyone.)

Oh No, I'm not kidding at all and in Texas that shooting would be, and has been, completely legal.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:.......................
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property...................

And I would be attempting to survive a forced entry into my home (or property). If I shoot someone for breaking in my house, frankly I couldn't care less what happens to them.
I have seen far too many good men die to be concerned with whether a criminal lives or not.



Actually this came up just yesterday, on another site.
Some time back, when a (TX) man started up his driveway he saw burglars coming out of his house. With his "truck rifle" he killed one, shot another (killed?) and about blew the third's arm off (as I recall).
No charges against the homeowner.

I heard a rumor that a couple Deputies bought the man some ammo to replace what he shot.

 

[Sam1911]

We've gone 'round and round about TX laws here and pretty much have to ignore them as instructive for anyone outside of that state.

In no other place in the country (maybe one other...) can you shoot someone who has committed a robbery but is now fleeing.

It isn't a matter of not shooting them in the back -- it's a matter of the threat to life having ended or minimized to the degree that violence is not imminent.

Even in TX, it is better to NOT have to kill someone.

 

[M2 Carbine]

We've gone 'round and round about TX laws here and pretty much have to ignore them as instructive for anyone outside of that state.

In no other place in the country (maybe one other...) can you shoot someone who has committed a robbery but is now fleeing.

True. But the question was, "Break In -- What do you do?".
Not what does everyone but Texans do?

Even in TX, it is better to NOT have to kill someone.

True also.

 

[uspJ]

C for me. I also have the advantage in my home of having the other two bedrooms directly across from mine. If I hear something and need to cover the other rooms I can still do so from my bedroom and use the hallway leading to these rooms as a fatal funnell.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

I've always said that the cell phone is our second weapon. I would choose A.

East Lansing police responds extremely fast, under 4 minutes.

 

[Sam1911]

I would choose A.

That doesn't seem to follow.

If the response time is under 4 minutes, then you can afford to wait out that 4 minutes in the tenfold safety of your defensive strong point.

Four minutes is still plenty of time, though, to leave your strong point, try to clear your house, and get yourself killed for no good reason.

It isn't some kind of race, like "o.k., the police are on their way...I've only got 4 minutes to clear this house before they arrive!!!"

Even if you remain alive for that four minutes, now the police arrive on scene with (possibly) several armed people wandering around inside. If you tell them that you're in the bedroom, barricaded in a defensive position, there's very little likelihood that you'll end up mistaken for a bad guy. If you tell them, in essence, "I'll be one of the armed folks you'll find stalking through some random location in the house," well, that's not so good.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M2 Carbine: Oh No, I'm not kidding at all and in Texas that shooting [of someone leaving your home] would be, and has been, completely legal.

Only if certain circumstances exist.

Quote:
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:.......................
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property...................

We do not recommend trying to interpret statutes without knowing the case law, and it is never a good idea to rely on part of the code.

Here is the part you left out:

(B) and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Personally, I don't think it would be worth risking one's fortune, record, and personal freedom on the belief that one could present convincing evidence that such a belief was reasonable. All downside, no upside.

If I shoot someone for breaking in my house, frankly I couldn't care less what happens to them.

The fact of an unlawful break in made with force gives the occupant a legal presumption that he is in imminent danger and may protect himself as necessary. It does not give him the right to shoot someone who has fled the house; there have been a number of convictions for doing so, including one not so long ago in Texas.

Shooting someone "for breaking into [one's] house"? Be very careful! The citizen may use deadly force to defend himself and his family, and in Texas, to protect property under some circumstances, but no citizen can lawfully use deadly force because someone has committed a crime, without due process.

Actually this came up just yesterday, on another site.
Some time back, when a (TX) man started up his driveway he saw burglars coming out of his house. With his "truck rifle" he killed one, shot another (killed?) and about blew the third's arm off (as I recall).
No charges against the homeowner.

No charges so far, anyway. A future DA or Grand jury, or new evidence, can always bring the shooter to trial--until he dies or has been pardoned.

 

[BBQLS1]

C is the right answer.

 

[gym]

All situations are different, you would need to be there to decide which course of action was best. Plans change according to the situation, and situations change from the plan. You need to learn how to adapt to what is happening at the time. Having been in one, it happens so fast that sometimes you have no time to decide, you are forced into survival mode, or you can just freeze up. Everyone reacts differentlly, it's impossible to use a one size fits all with this kind of thing.They knew they were coming, you didn't. They may be very good at this or very bad, same goes for you.If you have a room that can be secured, secure it and wait for help. You don't know what you will be walking into. They may be ex military gone bad and know things that you don't or just some kids ,or a homeless person. Trying to guess at how to react is the first mistake. secure a room and call the police. Home invasion in progress, we are in the "were you are" there are "x" amount of people, that I saw, my family is here in the home. I saw this or that, please hurry, I am armed and have secured myself as best as I can, We are dressed in the following, They are already rolling as you are talking and your info is going out to the cars on the way in. Then you wait, they will call and tell you they are at the scene and what to do after that. Please don't try to set up an imgiary scenario in your head, it will never work out that way.

 

[Jspotto]

C: Best choice. I have not seen this mentioned. When you call 911, be sure you describe youself and any family members (Pets too if you desire),what you look like, what color your PJ's are and the FACT YOU ARE ARMED! Unless I'm wrong, LE will clear the house upon arrivial. You and Family members will be in those rooms if hunkered down. You don't want to get shot by the local LEO's think you are the Perp!

 

[Myles]

Shooting someone "for breaking into [one's] house"? Be very careful! The citizen may use deadly force to defend himself and his family, and in Texas, to protect property under some circumstances, but no citizen can lawfully use deadly force because someone has committed a crime, without due process.

The laws depend on the state. I live in NC, and there is no "Duty to Retreat" and force is allowed to prevent the forcible entry itself, not to mention what happens once entry is gained and you are in fear for your family and your own lives.

Frankly, I cannot imagine there being any good and friendly reason that someone is smashing through a door or window. (Aside from LE performing their duties)

N.C. Gen. Stat. Sec. 14-51.1

§ 14‑51.1. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.

(c) This section is not intended to repeal, expand, or limit any other defense that may exist under the common law. (1993 (Reg. Sess., 1994), c. 673, s. 1.)

EDIT: To answer the OP, it would really be situational for me and my wife. If it was certainly someone "inside the home," I would say A or C.

I live in a very rural mountain area with some fenced and gated acreage, and keep 3 dogs inside the home. Dogs are a great defense, but can give you false warnings. Often times, the dogs are up and barking at night, it might be a raccoon, possum, bobcat, or wandering bear. It's not inside my home, but I do want to know what is outside. Spotlights, not 911 and hide. It may be someone broken down, or wrecked, needing help - this has happened several times - bad mountain road.

If it is a home invasion, they are coming to you, let them pass through the funnel. If it's a burglar, I am not letting them walk away with whatever they want. Dogs would be the first line of defense, while grabbing a light and something better than a sharp stick, while the wife has the phone and her own something better than a sharp stick.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Myles: The laws depend on the state.

Very important point. They depend not only upon the code as written, but also upon the rulings of appellate and state supreme courts.

I live in NC, and there is no "Duty to Retreat" and force is allowed to prevent the forcible entry itself, not to mention what happens once entry is gained and you are in fear for your family and your own lives.

One key area in which castle laws vary lies in whether or not the unlawful entry must be made with force; another involves whether or not deadly force may be used to prevent an attempted unlawful entry that has not yet been effected. No state, however, empowers the citizen to shoot someone as punishment for having broken in.

Frankly, I cannot imagine there being any good and friendly reason that someone is smashing through a door or window.

That is the underlying principle behind the castle doctrine: the mere fact of an unlawful entry (sometimes, depending upon the jurisdiction, an unlawful entry made with force or "tumultuously"), and in some jurisdictions, the fact of an attempt to enter unlawfully and with force, provides the occupant with a presumption that he has reason to believe that deadly force is justified to prevent the death, serious injury, or kidnapping of an occupant. That presumption, however, is usually rebuttable.

The important point to remember is that once the intruder has ceased to be a threat, deadly force is no longer justified. In almost every jurisdiction, that means that, once he no longer presents an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm or kidnapping, deadly force is not justified; the key word is prevent. As discussed above, the law in Texas also encompasses the protection of property under some circumstances.

 

[Myles]

The important point to remember is that once the intruder has ceased to be a threat, deadly force is no longer justified. In almost every jurisdiction, that means that, once he no longer presents an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm or kidnapping, deadly force is not justified; the key word is prevent. As discussed above, the law in Texas also encompasses the protection of property under some circumstances.

Good point. I am not a LEO - I am not trying to make an arrest. I want them to stop and leave. I've forgotten which book I've read this from, but the instructor recommended that if you must confront an intruder, you should shout "Get out! I've got a gun! Get out!" not "Freeze! Get down!" His point was that the encounter can be made easier, by giving the intruder an option to exit - you are not trying to arrest him. You've got his description to give the police. If they proceed to attack rather than leave, then you may have no other option than to use force.