Break In -- What do you do?

[shootingthebreeze]

Thanks Sam 1911

 

[WALKERs210]

First thing is don't do what I did.. About one year ago around 12:30 -1:00 heard someone banging on the door. My son lives next door and first thought was something was wrong. YES there was, but it was not my son but a guy so messed up on crak or what ever he was in his underware. I didn't even have an ashtray close, I started talking to the guy and put my hand in the small of his back and walked and talked him out the door. Never again do I just OPEN the door. That guy wound up going into 3 other houses in the area before our Proud Protectors showed up.

 

[sonick808]

C. It just happened last night. had someone jump onto my balcony and pry my storage unit open, then started trying to open the inside door. Got spooked when I yelled out that I had called the police. Police came, took report; now it's just me and my nerves and wondering if they would ever come back again.

regarding someone running away ? No way would I fire. He could be carrying 20 grand from my safe and I still wouldn't fire. Shooting at someone running away doesn't make sense. I can't think of any hypothetical where it would make sense

 

[M2 Carbine]

Actually this came up just yesterday, on another site.
Some time back, when a (TX) man started up his driveway he saw burglars coming out of his house. With his "truck rifle" he killed one, shot another (killed?) and about blew the third's arm off (as I recall).
No charges against the homeowner.

No charges so far, anyway. A future DA or Grand jury, or new evidence, can always bring the shooter to trial--until he dies or has been pardoned.

The DA does send such shootings to the Grand Jury (without charges) and Grand Jury will "No Bill" it.

The fact of an unlawful break in made with force gives the occupant a legal presumption that he is in imminent danger and may protect himself as necessary. It does not give him the right to shoot someone who has fled the house; there have been a number of convictions for doing so, including one not so long ago in Texas.

I am not familiar with that Texas incident but I guarantee there's more to the story if the homeowner was charged and convicted of anything.

Then there's the famous Joe Horn case, where he killed two (illegal aliens) that were leaving after breaking into a neighbor's house.
Grand Jury-No Billed.
Horn was No Billed---even after tremendous pressure from "minority" organizations to hang him for a completely legal shooting.


So back to the original question, "Break In -- What do you do?"
Considering the OVERALL situation, I would do what is LEGAL and what I am able to do, up to and including shooting the criminals as they LEAVE my house.

 

[Sam1911]

I would do what is LEGAL and what I am able to do, up to and including shooting the criminals as they LEAVE my house.

Ok. You've voted, I think four times now. Let's say that you have given your "final answer" on the subject to the OP.

Now, for those of us who AREN'T in TX, it would be a very good idea to forget that we read any of that as it is VERY bad advice, at least outside the borders of that specific state.

 

[xXxplosive]

I have an automatic room clearer.....he's a 2 1/2 yr. old male German Shepard. Once he goes off...... it's on.
Had a similar situation as described by the OP....I was awakened by my wifeand got up while my she dialed 911. Cleared our house after the dog went through. The BG's decided not to come in after all...smart decision on their part as we were ahead of them and well prepaired.

 

[txhoghunter]

If you are SURE someone is in your house you DO NOT go looking for them. In your own bedroom with cover you have the advantage. The intruder does not know where you are, but more than likely must enter a "fatal funnel" (doorway) to get to you. Should you have to fire, this would be the time and he (or she) would not have a good chance of winning that fight. You should call 911 immediately and let them know that you are armed and ready to shoot if it comes to it. Don't worry about if it is a police officer entering your room, as they will declare their presence to make sure that you don't shoot them.

If you aren't sure if there is an intruder in your house you have a couple options:
1. Call the police (better safe than sorry)
2. If you feel like it is safe enough to do so (not a good chance that there is an intruder) clear the house yourself. (I would recommend leaving the spouse outside with a phone and instructions to call 911 if a gunshot is heard or if you don't emerge in 'x' amount of time)

Just a few things to remember:
1. Knowing the layout of your house is the biggest advantage you have over any intruder.
2. Leaving cover of your room to clear your house leaves your spouse unprotected. If she has a firearm and knows how to use it maybe not as much, but I would still prefer to be with her. (After all, two trained guns mean the threat has a better chance of being neutralized without you being harmed)

The only reason I see leaving the cover of your bedroom would be to go get your children and bring them back into your bedroom with you. This would involve clearing parts of your house, but only those necessary to allow you to get to your children safely.

 

[txhoghunter]

I am in Texas as well, but shooting someone running away is not something that I would consider unless there are outstanding circumstances. Self defense means protecting yourself until the threat is no longer there. IMO, someone running away is no longer a threat to my life and I will hold my fire. JMHO

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M2 carbine: The DA does send such shootings to the Grand Jury....

Yes, all shootings.

....and Grand Jury will "No Bill" it.

They may or may not. Nonetheless, a future Grand Jury (or the same one, if new evidence comes to light) can always return an indictment in the future, provided that the suspect is still alive and has not been pardoned.

I am not familiar with that Texas incident but I guarantee there's more to the story if the homeowner was charged and convicted of anything.

I misremembered; Mr. Raymond Lemes of San Antonio was in fact indicted for murder after he shot an intruder fleeing his house, but I can find nothing about what happened after that. Perhaps he plead to a lesser charge, or perhaps he was tried.

http://www.ksat.com/news/19790219/detail.html​

Then there's the famous Joe Horn case, where he killed two (illegal aliens) that were leaving after breaking into a neighbor's house.
Grand Jury-No Billed

Oh yes, that was famous, and you are therefore undoubtedly well aware that the entire reason for the "no bill" was the testimony of an eyewitness LEO that Horn fired in self defense because the decedents appeared to attack him.

So back to the original question, "Break In -- What do you do?"
Considering the OVERALL situation, I would do what is LEGAL and what I am able to do, up to and including shooting the criminals as they LEAVE my house.

Do you not believe that Mr. Lemes did what he thought to be legal? The problem is, someone else makes that determination.

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http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=561603​

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[Deanimator]

1. How do you KNOW there's somebody in the house?
2. How will the police get in?
3. How many false alarms will cause you to get NO response?

I heard a loud crash one night in my apartment. I picked up my M1911 and a flashlight and carefully walked out into the living room... where I found that a shelf in a bookshelf had collapsed, dumping books on the floor. Had I called the police, they would have had to both kick in the outside apartment door and the unit door. How often do you think they're going to respond to that kind of call from you, if you call without KNOWING there's somebody in your home?

While I have no illusions about being "protected" by the police, it would be nice if they EVENTUALLY showed up, if only to draw a chalk outline around any wouldbe assailants and put me down as the OFFICIAL victim. And don't forget that not that long ago, the police in Arizona(?) shot a home owner in the back multiple times without warning, then conspired to cover up their "mistake". Given that you could be shot by the POLICE, you probably ought to exercise a certain degree of due diligence in determining that somebody actually IS in the house.

 

[Deanimator]

Don't worry about if it is a police officer entering your room, as they will declare their presence to make sure that you don't shoot them.

Not necessarily.

 

[uspJ]

I agree with Deanimator when it comes to not being sure if someone is actually in your home. If I hear a noise I will investigate very cautiously, if I see/hear anything that makes me believe someone is there I will go no farther and fall back to a more defensible position. I would let them know that I have a gun and am prepared to fire and the police are on the way. If nobody is there I'll likely not hear anything and will only have given the house a stern talking to. If someone is there they will likely leave because they most likely will not want to stick around to be arrested or shot which will be the outcome if they linger or advance on my position after I have given a clear verbal warning.

I have no problem checking out a noise but as soon as I realize it is a threat I am going to the most advantageous position. I will not go searching for an unknown intruder with unknown number of accomplices potentially armed. They can come looking for me instead.

 

[david58]

It always, well, "it depends..."

My house now only occasionally has visitors, just me and the wife. I would vote C/D - we would hunker down, call police, but if need be can quietly slip out of a closet window, 4' drop to the ground, and be hidden behind nice shrubbery that we have left tall and trimmed just for this escape reason. We do that because the window from our room is only about 6' from the entryway to our house - easy to get out of but we'd drop right at the front door with no cover.

I really struggle with how to safely hunker down if someone was in the front of the house and we had kids or company staying with us (and grandkids some day) - I can cover from my bedroom, but part of that fatal funnel is made up by the sheetrock walls of a guest room. I am a cheapskate, but I think a security system is going to be the next investment. And, soon, a nice family friendly, BG-eating Rottweiler.

 

[Sam1911]

I heard a loud crash one night in my apartment. I picked up my M1911 and a flashlight and carefully walked out into the living room... where I found that a shelf in a bookshelf had collapsed, dumping books on the floor.

Hopefully, this leads back to what we were saying before about using all your senses and having some prudent level of patience.

One would assume that you heard a crash, armed yourself, and then tried to assess what you had heard before you headed out to confront it.

This would only make good sense in a small apartment, but a larger home would give even better opportunities to exercise surveillance.

If you wait a few moments (or minutes, depending), listening intently, and you hear nothing further at all, you have established a reasonable level of surety that a book fell down, or the cat REALLY wants out, or something else innocuous took place.

Most people, in their own home, (assuming) late at night when things are supposed to be quiet, can discern the difference between a book falling off a shelf (once) and windows breaking or opening, stealthy footsteps, doors opening/closing/creaking, floorboards creaking, hushed voices, and other cues that a human being is present when and where they should not be. They do not have to go set eyes on the intruder (possibly catching a bullet or a knife wound) to make the decision that a) armed interaction is imminent and b) the police should be called.

And, once armed and barricaded, a shouted challenge and a mention of outgoing munitions would be likely to produce either flight, or a startled apology and explanation (in the case of pranking friends, late night family visits, drunks at the wrong house, or whatever). If you really can't tell for sure, and there is still some tangible indication of an intrusion taking place, stay put. Let them come to you -- you have tremendous situational advantage as they come through your bedroom door. And go ahead and call the police as soon as you have reason to believe a BG is present.

Yes, there is always a chance that you might call the police on a false alarm. It happens. They don't refuse to come back the next time just because you once called in a mistaken alarm of an suspected intruder.

 

[Deanimator]

They don't refuse to come back the next time just because you once called in a mistaken alarm of an suspected intruder.

I'll bet your PRIORITY of response can go WAY down.

A previous history of crying "wolf" is a bad way to create a sense of urgency in others.

 

[Sam1911]

Sure, sure. If you do this a lot. But cops aren't such fools as to write you off as the paranoid old (insert whatever feeble-minded classification here) after one or two false alarms over some fairly lengthy period of time.

If this is happening to you multiple times in a year, you really need to take a new approach at your security strategies (and maybe how well you secure your personal belongings).

Much like the question a few months back of entering to "clear" your home if you return to find the door wide open -- and you can't remember whether you left it open or not.

If this happens once, well, stuff happens. If it happens with any frequency, FIX your door, develop better habits, and solve the broader holes you're creating in your situation through your own negligence.

Calling the cops to clear your house (or because you're reasonably certain there are intruders) once or twice in a few years isn't a problem. Having to do so every couple of months or so indicates that there are larger flaws you should take responsibility for.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by ryanrichmond: Break In -- What do you do?
You're in bed and are jarred awake by your spouse shaking you saying someone is in the house.
You grab your gun, get your spouse behind cover and...

A. Clear the house while having your spouse call 911 from behind cover
B. Clear the house WITH your spouse just as you've practiced
C. Stay hunkered down with your spouse and dial 911
D. Exit the house through a window and then call 911

Personally I'm saying (A)
I've never been in this situation but I think my instincts would lead me to take charge of the situation instead of waiting for the BG to come into the bedroom.

All qualified instructors, and all professionals who have been trained in clearing operations and who have responded to this perennial question in the past, advise against "clearing" one's home.

There is one limited exception: one must see to the safety of loved ones first.

The usual phrase is "let the threat come to you". He who walks into another's ambush will almost always lose, whether he is the resident or an intruder.

That has been demonstrated time and again in role playing and simulation. When one thinks about it, it is borne out by simple common sense:

• If one is defending against entry through a door, one knows from where the target will come;
• if one goes looking for a target, he does not know where the target is;
• the "hunter" can easily be ambushed from more than one direction at the same time;
• one on the move is likely to make enough noise to give away his position, if visible movement does not do so.

When one then distinguishes between the lawful occupant and an intruder, there is another very important consideration: the occupant must identify his target before firing; an intruder may not feel the need.

Having said all of that, I will point out that many people, including myself before I knew better, have "successfully" "cleared" there own homes without difficulty. The common denominator in almost all instances has been that it turned out that there was no one there.

One question that always comes up in these discussions is, "how can I know when I really need to call for help?" Sam1911 has once again provided the answer:

If you wait a few moments (or minutes, depending), listening intently, and you hear nothing further at all, you have established a reasonable level of surety that a book fell down, or the cat REALLY wants out, or something else innocuous took place.

Most people, in their own home, (assuming) late at night when things are supposed to be quiet, can discern the difference between a book falling off a shelf (once) and windows breaking or opening, stealthy footsteps, doors opening/closing/creaking, floorboards creaking, hushed voices, and other cues that a human being is present when and where they should not be. They do not have to go set eyes on the intruder (possibly catching a bullet or a knife wound) to make the decision that a) armed interaction is imminent and b) the police should be called.

Sam then answers the OP's question directly:

And, once armed and barricaded, a shouted challenge and a mention of outgoing munitions would be likely to produce either flight, or a startled apology and explanation (in the case of pranking friends, late night family visits, drunks at the wrong house, or whatever). If you really can't tell for sure, and there is still some tangible indication of an intrusion taking place, stay put. Let them come to you -- you have tremendous situational advantage as they come through your bedroom door. And go ahead and call the police as soon as you have reason to believe a BG is present.

That strategy offers the best hope of one's not getting killed or injured and leaving one's spouse at the mercy of violent criminal actors, and it minimizes the chance of shooting the wrong person.

I cannot imagine trying to escape from my own home through a window in my jurisdiction, but it may be necessary if safely possible in others.

 

[txhoghunter]

Deanimator, it says in the article that the homeowner did not address the fact that he was armed in the 911 call. There was nothing saying the officer did not announce himself. If you as a homeowner are armed, you need to give the dispatcher that information as well as your location in your home.

 

[Deanimator]

Deanimator, it says in the article that the homeowner did not address the fact that he was armed in the 911 call. There was nothing saying the officer did not announce himself. If you as a homeowner are armed, you need to give the dispatcher that information as well as your location in your home.

1. The officer shot the homeowner in the back without ever SEEING a gun.
2. Other sources have stated that the homeowner was shot without ANY warning.

You have NO control over the training or judgment of any LEO who shows up. You could get Popeye Doyle or Chief Wiggum. It's purely luck of the draw. I don't want the police in my house, on edge, unless there's no alternative. Given that they'd have to kick in TWO doors to get there only reinforces that.

 

[xXxplosive]

How will the police get in...?

Well, for one, have a house key attached to one of those light sticks so you can toss it out the window at night to LE. This should be planned while on the 911 call also give your location if your hunkerin' down in one room. Another suggestion might be to have a small laminated sketch of the floor plan of your home attached to the light stick as well with an 'X" marking your location as LE clears your home.

 

[txhoghunter]

Deanimator you need to read the article a little more closely.

" it took less than one minute from when officers entered the home searching for a Hispanic male suspect to the when Lilly reacted to seeing Arambula holding a gun."

The officer DID see a gun and fired when he saw that it was being aimed. He knew that there was an armed suspect in the house and upon seeing an unidentified man wielding a gun he opened fire. If an officer believes there is an imminent danger to life he does not have to give a warning. The warning should have been given by the homeowner to the dispatcher saying that he was armed.

I will not hold the officer at fault in this situation.

 

[Deanimator]

" it took less than one minute from when officers entered the home searching for a Hispanic male suspect to the when Lilly reacted to seeing Arambula holding a gun."

This discussion is not about that incident, but I will say that other sources say otherwise.

And again, I don't want police in my house unless there's no alternative.

 

[Sam1911]

And again, I don't want police in my house unless there's no alternative.

That is understood, but we should not consider that distrust/dislike/preference a compelling reason to justify going on house-clearing expeditions.

Viewing responding LEOs as threats, and indeed, equal in risk to violent criminal invaders is absurd.

We've covered many times what good practices and procedures -- and communication -- would be to avoid being shot by responding officers. If you're wandering around your home with a gun, and the police are responding, that's not exercising wisdom or best practices.

If you're hunkered down in your safe room, on the phone with 911, have explained where you are, how you can be identified, and that you are armed, and you establish verbal communication with the officers as they enter the building -- the chances that they'll burst into your safe room and shoot you out from behind the bedstead are pretty minuscule.

 

[Deanimator]

If you're hunkered down in your safe room

On a more substantive note, I live in a miserable apartment. There's no such thing as a "safe room" here. A ten year old girl could kick in any door in this place. The only thing protecting me from an assailant is me.

 

[Sam1911]

On a more substantive note, I live in a miserable apartment. There's no such thing as a "safe room" here

And that may be reality for many people. You probably could/would still attempt some kind of ambush to maximize your situational advantage -- assuming you don't merely wake up to find an invader in the same room as you.

But that special circumstance rather precludes some of the advice given from being appropriate for someone in a different kind of home.