Brinell, Trail Boss and a .38

[bsparker]

For loading cast bullets with Trail Boss how much would you factor in BHN when selecting a bullet?

I have some cast loads that are 18 BHN, but if I'm doing the math correctly for a .38 sp load using 158gr over trail boss, I'd be somewhere around 11,400-13,700 PSI. Needing only about 12 BHN. The 18 BHN seem to fit and fire well (although I haven't tested them extensively).

Is it worth buying a softer cast bullet? Will I see much difference in shooting or cleaning?

(Note: I saw an old post from 2012 that covered something similar, but the post focused more on fit of bullet. I want to know if I will see better accuracy and less leading in 12 BHN vs 18 BHN? Is it worth another purchase? I can easily use the 18 in my 357 loads, and would like to save them for that if I'll get better loads with 12 for the .38. Otherwise, I'll use 18 in both.)

 

[AJC1]

A soft bullet will opterate at the base easier. If you have exellent fit already it's less of a consern. If they are a lot cheaper maybe, but I would be testing before spending

 

[Herman B]

Re: leading, fit is king! Pin gauge cyl throats and slug bbl to really get it dialed. I load the softer bullets (BHN 12) in the Special rounds (38, 44) and BHN 18 in magnum/hard charging rounds, incl 10mm.

Depends on what's meant by better loads. Softer loads may be more prone to leading with hard bullets. (Who doesn't enjoy a soft load?) I'd order BHN 12 bullets, if for no other reason than to compare as you may find better performance.

 

[twistytorn]

If the bullet fits, you can get away with harder bullets with lower pressure loads. It doesn't always work the other way. Your Trailboss load is low pressure, so if you're not getting leading and the accuracy is acceptable you're not going to gain anything with the 12 BHN.

At those pressures even 12 is overkill.

 

[mdi]

I have my "Mystery Metal" alloy runs 10-11 BHN. Comprised of WW, range lead and shop scraps, I can load some +P or Magnum loads under them but as long as they properly fit the gun, leading is a minor concern...

 

[twistytorn]

I have my "Mystery Metal" alloy runs 10-11 BHN. Comprised of WW, range lead and shop scraps, I can load some +P or Magnum loads under them but as long as they properly fit the gun, leading is a minor concern...

Not surprising, really--your alloy sounds a lot like mine. I've run full magnum loads without a hint of leading from 6 and 7.5" barrels with the same mystery mix. A lot of people jump immediately to "more hardness = better." I've seen instances where undersized hard bullets lead barrels pretty badly at low pressure. I assume that hard alloy fails to obturate and gas cutting occurs.

 

[bsparker]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m inclined to buy the 12 BHN. Price is good about .07/rd but shipping is the kicker at about half the price of the rounds. Not bad overall though. I think I’d like to keep the 18 BHN for the .357 and be better suited to load them a little hotter.

thanks for the input. Excited to see how they perform.

 

[racepres]

Not surprising, really--your alloy sounds a lot like mine. I've run full magnum loads without a hint of leading from 6 and 7.5" barrels with the same mystery mix. A lot of people jump immediately to "more hardness = better." I've seen instances where undersized hard bullets lead barrels pretty badly at low pressure. I assume that hard alloy fails to obturate and gas cutting occurs.

My Snubby .38 load with Trail Boss (4.2 gr)is very mild, and seems best with Swaged (Speer or Hornady for instance] SWC
Harder alloys are reserved for Much more Powerful Loadings..

 

[milsurpguy]

My Snubby .38 load with Trail Boss (4.2 gr)is very mild, and seems best with Swaged (Speer or Hornady for instance] SWC
Harder alloys are reserved for Much more Powerful Loadings..

How much does 4.2gr trail boss fill the case?

 

[AJC1]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m inclined to buy the 12 BHN. Price is good about .07/rd but shipping is the kicker at about half the price of the rounds. Not bad overall though. I think I’d like to keep the 18 BHN for the .357 and be better suited to load them a little hotter.

thanks for the input. Excited to see how they perform.

Any fast powder would be a lot cheaper to load. Trailboss is not a pound but is priced like one. 3.0 grains of tightgroup works great with a 158 for plinking in 38 and there are a ton of other good options. Use what you can find for sure.

 

[racepres]

How much does 4.2gr trail boss fill the case?

Just touching the bottom of my loaded Boolits, when seated to Crimp groove... Giving 742fps out of my 3-1/2 (actually Prolly 2-3/4 barrel with Chamber)
Feels very mild indeed.. especially as compared to a load of 3.0 gr Red Dot, for nearly the same Velocity.. That little Piece benefits greatly from a Houge Grip!!!!

Note; These loads are safe in My Gun... and will probably blow yours up and Kill/Maim you...

 

[bsparker]

Any fast powder would be a lot cheaper to load. Trailboss is not a pound but is priced like one. 3.0 grains of tightgroup works great with a 158 for plinking in 38 and there are a ton of other good options. Use what you can find for sure.

Good point. I've been keeping my eye out for different powders if they come up for sale. Hadn't planned on starting with Trailboss but it was available. I'll add Titegroup to my watch list. Thanks

 

[racepres]

Good point. I've been keeping my eye out for different powders if they come up for sale. Hadn't planned on starting with Trailboss but it was available. I'll add Titegroup to my watch list. Thanks

Red Dot has been available, and fairly inexpensive, thru the Panic...., Lucky for Me it is Extremely Versatile... I buy it by the 8# when on sale..
Better accuracy accross the board, no matter the cartridge, thusfar, than T.B. But nothing is as Mild and fills the case as well as T.B.

 

[mdi]

In my opinion and experience the qualities of a cast bullet are, in order of importance;
1. Bullet to gun fit. (bullet must fit for clean accurate shooting).
2. Good lube. (lube that will "last" for the entire barrel).
3. Powder. (some powders burn much "hotter" than others)
4. Alloy composition (tin, arsenic, etc, for mailability and fill out).
5. (or 6) BHN, bullet hardness.

 

[forrest r]

Why is it that the bullet mfg's like speer, hornady, etc sell +/- 6bhn soft swaged lead bullets for standard velocity 38spl loads. And a cast bullet has to be 18bhn or it isn't hard enough???

FWIW:
I've shot countless 1000's of my own cast bullets over the decades using nothing more then range scrap/hill pickin's. I do 150# batches that come out +/- 100# of clean alloy that has been in the 8/9bhn range with every batch I've tested. If I water drop (cool the bullets by dropping them out of the mold into a bucket of water) I end up with a +/- 12bhn alloy.

90%+ of my shooting cast/lead bullets is done with the 8/9bhn air cooled alloy. It does extremely well with loads up to +/- 25,000psi. I water drop bullets making them 12bhn to use in mag loads in the 357 & 44mag along with hot loads in the 9mm, loads up to 35,000psi.

For the hotter rifle loads I use a 14bhn alloy 91% lead 4.5% tin 4.5% antimony for loads in the 35,000psi to 50,000psi range.

 

[mdi]

"Hard Cast" is a relatively new phenomenon. I believe it was the new caster's thinking that "harder is better" and commercial casters gave them what they wanted, 18+ BHN. Harder bullets benefit the commercial casters just like their hard lubes; less shipping damage. I have cast and fired 30 cal. bullets of WW alloy to 2,000+ fps with little/no leading. One common problem with soft swaged bullets is when driven much more than starting loads they experience "bullet skid"' the bullets are soft enough that when driven a bit harder, the bullet doesn't grab the rifling well and skids down the barrel leaving a lot of leading. I haven't had any handgun that needed an alloy harder than Lyman #2, BHN about 15...

 

[forrest r]

"Hard Cast" is a relatively new phenomenon. I believe it was the new caster's thinking that "harder is better" and commercial casters gave them what they wanted, 18+ BHN. Harder bullets benefit the commercial casters just like their hard lubes; less shipping damage. I have cast and fired 30 cal. bullets of WW alloy to 2,000+ fps with little/no leading. One common problem with soft swaged bullets is when driven much more than starting loads they experience "bullet skid"' the bullets are soft enough that when driven a bit harder, the bullet doesn't grab the rifling well and skids down the barrel leaving a lot of leading. I haven't had any handgun that needed an alloy harder than Lyman #2, BHN about 15...

Just how hard to you think the op will be driving those bullets using trailboss in 38spl cases????

 

[bsparker]

Part of my curiosity is why it’s difficult to find anything lower than 16BHN with 18 being the most common. Apart from Missouri Bullet I haven’t found many others who offer <16bhn. Any sources for you guys would recommend other than casting your own (I’m not ready to jump into that yet)?

 

[blackd24]

https://www.brazosprecision.com/38-158gr-SWCBevel-BaseGroove-656ct-00632bullet_p_14.html

Brazos is 13. I have a healthy supply if you wanted to try out 100 or 2.

 

[bsparker]

https://www.brazosprecision.com/38-158gr-SWCBevel-BaseGroove-656ct-00632bullet_p_14.html

Brazos is 13. I have a healthy supply if you wanted to try out 100 or 2.

I guess my question for you is did you notice any difference between the Acme and Brazos?

I’m guessing in shooting at slightly less velocity and pressure, but I can’t imagine the difference is that much.

Acme shot fine in my S&W 686. Was mainly curious if there was a difference as I’m learning more about the process, BHN and bullet fit.

 

[twistytorn]

bsparker--if the bullets you have are accurate and they're not leading, then they're doing what you need. You don't need to change anything. But if you want to try something else, then go for it...

mdi's list of priorities for lead bullets is spot on--once you have good fit and decent lube, the rest gets a lot easier.

 

[blackd24]

I actually never loaded the acme. I bought the acme because they get really good reviews from everyone I see online. But I have so many of the brazos I haven’t tried the acme yet.

 

[bsparker]

bsparker--if the bullets you have are accurate and they're not leading, then they're doing what you need. You don't need to change anything. But if you want to try something else, then go for it...

mdi's list of priorities for lead bullets is spot on--once you have good fit and decent lube, the rest gets a lot easier.

good point. I’m new to this and don’t know what I don’t know yet. So the BHN equation was fairly new to me.

The list of importance is certainly helpful!

 

[mdi]

I have no idea. I have handloaded 38 Special since '69 from a bit less than 700 fps up to about 1,000 fps.

 

[AJC1]

Why is it that the bullet mfg's like speer, hornady, etc sell +/- 6bhn soft swaged lead bullets for standard velocity 38spl loads. And a cast bullet has to be 18bhn or it isn't hard enough???

FWIW:
I've shot countless 1000's of my own cast bullets over the decades using nothing more then range scrap/hill pickin's. I do 150# batches that come out +/- 100# of clean alloy that has been in the 8/9bhn range with every batch I've tested. If I water drop (cool the bullets by dropping them out of the mold into a bucket of water) I end up with a +/- 12bhn alloy.

90%+ of my shooting cast/lead bullets is done with the 8/9bhn air cooled alloy. It does extremely well with loads up to +/- 25,000psi. I water drop bullets making them 12bhn to use in mag loads in the 357 & 44mag along with hot loads in the 9mm, loads up to 35,000psi.

For the hotter rifle loads I use a 14bhn alloy 91% lead 4.5% tin 4.5% antimony for loads in the 35,000psi to 50,000psi range.

I would agree with all of this. Now to get the experience of casting that much to know for sure, is in progress....