you dont only carrry a BUG gun if your primary fails you can also use your BUG gun cuz its alot quicker then having to reload your primary gun all you have to do is pull out the BUG and start firing when your primary gun runs out of bullets. it alot quicker then unloadin a empty mag and grabbing a full one and put it in the gun and lock the breech. vs pull out BUG and fire? which is quicker? BUG .
BUG... really?
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Superlite27
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"Two is one and one is none."
I have a very (very, very) accurate and very (very, very) reliable STI 1911 I carry as a primary.
I also have a J-frame in an ankle holster.
The J-frame is nothing more that a BUG. Never will be.
But if I'm ever tackled, and end up wrestling over my primary, I bet it sure will come in handy because my life doesn't depend on winning the wrestling match, it depends only on if I can keep one gun pointed elsewhere while "Mr. Surprise" helps me out.
I have a very (very, very) accurate and very (very, very) reliable STI 1911 I carry as a primary.
I also have a J-frame in an ankle holster.
The J-frame is nothing more that a BUG. Never will be.
But if I'm ever tackled, and end up wrestling over my primary, I bet it sure will come in handy because my life doesn't depend on winning the wrestling match, it depends only on if I can keep one gun pointed elsewhere while "Mr. Surprise" helps me out.
I wouldn't carry three guns, my point on the SHTF was meant more as I wasn't left with a choicee. If bullets are flying and there is good solid cover I'm laying behind it first and then trying to identify the threat and then the means of safe escape. But you aren't always left a safe escape. And at twenty yards or more the BG can still hit you with a lucky shot. BGs have a tendency of ducking for cover when bullets start flying at them. If they don't duck for cover then they'll likely get hit.
I don't care if the BGs are fifty yards away, if there is a hail of lead getting put out there I don't want to be a running target. I want to be a target the BGs are running from, behind good cover able to take aimed shots. I think there was an article in "Combat Handguns" dealing with previous cases where do-gooders got themselves killed trying to do the right thing. The author came to the point that in all likelihood he'd settle for only detaining the gunmen by returning fire and isolating him from harming others. If you got whackos emptying magazines into folks who have done nothing wrong, I'd like to think I'd at the very least buy those folks a few seconds to escape as I fired on the gunmen from good cover with a clear path of retreat. But that's just me. A few seconds could mean a few lives.
I don't care if the BGs are fifty yards away, if there is a hail of lead getting put out there I don't want to be a running target. I want to be a target the BGs are running from, behind good cover able to take aimed shots. I think there was an article in "Combat Handguns" dealing with previous cases where do-gooders got themselves killed trying to do the right thing. The author came to the point that in all likelihood he'd settle for only detaining the gunmen by returning fire and isolating him from harming others. If you got whackos emptying magazines into folks who have done nothing wrong, I'd like to think I'd at the very least buy those folks a few seconds to escape as I fired on the gunmen from good cover with a clear path of retreat. But that's just me. A few seconds could mean a few lives.
You know 15-20 years ago this might have been a valid statement, but we do not live in that world anymore. I have walked through malls where gangs are strolling through, albeit being scrutinized by unarmed security in most cases. Should a situation arise where I would have to use my firearm to defend myself, I would cherish having a BUG for that purpose if need be, or if after a shot or two from my primary, the gun jammed or was hit by a bad guy bullet putting it out of commission, again I would want a BUG to at least try to use to escape the situation. Something else I have read several times is, it has been proven that it is easier and faster to draw your BUG and use it instead of trying to reload the primary weapon. I have tried it and most times I can draw my BUG faster than I can eject an empty mag and insert another, then cycle the slide and bring the weapon back on target.
I am guessing, Dark Knight, that you dont feel the need to carry a spare tire in your car or a set of jumper cables & flashlight. Good luck if & when the chips go down......me I will keep my BUG!
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george29
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DK, why carry at all? According to your philosophy even one is too much to carry unless one goes into harms way!
I don't go into harms way but I find it crosses my path often enough. At night, I have a minimum of two, usually 3. The biggest (M&P) stays in the car, the 642 and NAA in my pockets.
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I don't go into harms way but I find it crosses my path often enough. At night, I have a minimum of two, usually 3. The biggest (M&P) stays in the car, the 642 and NAA in my pockets.
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I understand many of the situations posted and agree with carrying multiple weapons if you feel your situation requires or if it makes you feel more comfortable and capable... I just hate to hear "back up gun" placed on a gun in an inferior way. as I said originally, I cannot imagine carrying any gun that I wouldnt consider to be my primary should the situation require... in fact, as some of you have pointed out, the back up should be even more reliable than the primary seeing as it is the "last resort"
as far as a reload substitute... , I am not sure about that argument. With the exception of revolvers without moons or speed loaders, I dont think you are saving much if any time by dropping your first gun, then pulling your second from your ankle, pocket, IWB or where ever it is you keep it... seems a mag could be dropped, popped in, and ready to go just as quickly.
not to mention.... both methods would take repetitive training and I dont feel like dropping my 1911's on the ground...
as far as a reload substitute... , I am not sure about that argument. With the exception of revolvers without moons or speed loaders, I dont think you are saving much if any time by dropping your first gun, then pulling your second from your ankle, pocket, IWB or where ever it is you keep it... seems a mag could be dropped, popped in, and ready to go just as quickly.
not to mention.... both methods would take repetitive training and I dont feel like dropping my 1911's on the ground...
As some have mentioned, it is called a BUG, but maybe alternative gun would be a better term. For me personally after having carried both ways, I decided that I would rather have a lightweight gun that weighs about the same or less than a spare mag instead of a spare mag.
For instance a 13 round Glock 21 mag weighs significantly more then my fully loaded Keltec P3AT or P32. Yes it is a smaller caliber and less rounds but here is where the importance comes in. As they say in real estate, location, location location. Having a gun accessible to the left hand side is one good thing if your right is tied up in a struggle, primary malfunctions, hand has been shot (saw that on a couple of TV shows at least) or has been chopped off with a samurai sword.
Also when sitting down pocket carry among other forms of carry are almost guaranteed inaccessible (think drive-up atm late at night), or if carrying a revolver as primary if you will, I can tell you I can grab a Keltec from a pocket much faster then working my magic with speed strips (not to mention a few more rounds).
Some other side benefits would be arming your significant other or well-trusted friend, if you dropped primary, shot it dry, or heck in SHTF situations it may give you another caliber that you can find ammo for (think Resident Evil).
I hope I never use my primary, let alone both, but I keep a box in the trunk with an absolute bare minimum of at least one magazine or speed strip of everything I might carry on a day to day basis just in case. However if I make it to the car I hope to drive away and reload later, LOL.
So yes, in my opinion an "alternate gun" is a great thing!
For instance a 13 round Glock 21 mag weighs significantly more then my fully loaded Keltec P3AT or P32. Yes it is a smaller caliber and less rounds but here is where the importance comes in. As they say in real estate, location, location location. Having a gun accessible to the left hand side is one good thing if your right is tied up in a struggle, primary malfunctions, hand has been shot (saw that on a couple of TV shows at least) or has been chopped off with a samurai sword.
Also when sitting down pocket carry among other forms of carry are almost guaranteed inaccessible (think drive-up atm late at night), or if carrying a revolver as primary if you will, I can tell you I can grab a Keltec from a pocket much faster then working my magic with speed strips (not to mention a few more rounds).
Some other side benefits would be arming your significant other or well-trusted friend, if you dropped primary, shot it dry, or heck in SHTF situations it may give you another caliber that you can find ammo for (think Resident Evil).
I hope I never use my primary, let alone both, but I keep a box in the trunk with an absolute bare minimum of at least one magazine or speed strip of everything I might carry on a day to day basis just in case. However if I make it to the car I hope to drive away and reload later, LOL.
So yes, in my opinion an "alternate gun" is a great thing!
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I carry a P3AT and sometimes I also carry an XD45 along with it. My P3AT may sometimes be carried as a BUG but it is not "just a BUG", it works just fine on its own.
I would never carry a pistol that I felt was unreliable.
I would never carry a pistol that I felt was unreliable.
I'm not Steven Segall.... so I can accept having a BUG to make up for my lack of hollywood kung-fu skills.
I can think of so many uses for a BUG deep concealed that it is not even funny. I'm really not going to go into those scenarios becuase they are ridiculous and will probably never happen.
That being said.... Proper security and defense requires that you be imaginative and think of every possible situation.
Hope you never end up as the only hostage with a p3at strapped to your ankle.
I can think of so many uses for a BUG deep concealed that it is not even funny. I'm really not going to go into those scenarios becuase they are ridiculous and will probably never happen.
That being said.... Proper security and defense requires that you be imaginative and think of every possible situation.
Hope you never end up as the only hostage with a p3at strapped to your ankle.
AK103K
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Any manner of things we carry and wear are in essence back up weapons, but I'm betting most dont have a clue to or even considered their alternate uses.
How many carry a super duper tactical pocket knife and have no idea what to do with it, other than to flip it open in a cool manner in front of their friends?
I suppose that there are two schools of thought here, those that take things a little more serious, and those that dont.
Those that do tend to be those who always carry the same things, religiously, day in and day out, and probably look like Brett Maverick trying to get into a card game when they empty their pockets. They more likely have other skills that complement too.
Those that dont, seem to be casual carriers, who seem to treat their weapons as fashion accessories, having a certain gun and holster to go with a certain manner of dress or occasion, and often complain about size and weight, and how inconvenient to their lifestyles certain things are.
I think that many havent even considered what they will do if they need their gun, and for some reason, it becomes disabled or tied up by an advesary, or they cant get to it quick enough. I know this is a gun board, and discussions are mostly about "guns", but you do have an alternate plan and or skill set to help out if you need to do something else just to get your gun up and running, right? Murphy is a miserable SOB, and seems to take great delight at others miseries and lack of planning.
Now, does this BUG print too much in these jeans, or do I need a good pocket holster?
How many carry a super duper tactical pocket knife and have no idea what to do with it, other than to flip it open in a cool manner in front of their friends?
I suppose that there are two schools of thought here, those that take things a little more serious, and those that dont.
Those that do tend to be those who always carry the same things, religiously, day in and day out, and probably look like Brett Maverick trying to get into a card game when they empty their pockets. They more likely have other skills that complement too.
Those that dont, seem to be casual carriers, who seem to treat their weapons as fashion accessories, having a certain gun and holster to go with a certain manner of dress or occasion, and often complain about size and weight, and how inconvenient to their lifestyles certain things are.
I think that many havent even considered what they will do if they need their gun, and for some reason, it becomes disabled or tied up by an advesary, or they cant get to it quick enough. I know this is a gun board, and discussions are mostly about "guns", but you do have an alternate plan and or skill set to help out if you need to do something else just to get your gun up and running, right? Murphy is a miserable SOB, and seems to take great delight at others miseries and lack of planning.
Now, does this BUG print too much in these jeans, or do I need a good pocket holster?
george29
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The shoulder holster is a genuine brand new surplus USN shoulder holster for 4" S&W Model 10 with 13 (bad luck?) bullet loops sown to shoulder strap. I got it from my friend that does the gun show circuits around OK, TX, MS & AK. You can order one at http://www.charleyssurplus.com/holster.htm
The other strap I slipped a Jay-Pee (found it in one of those rummage boxes one always finds in big gun stores) 12 round belt loop for .38/.357
Altogether, my M&P with 6 in the chamber & 25 more on loops. My 642 goes with 2 Bianchi speed strips on me and two more in the car, that's 29 more .38 +P, altogether 60rounds of .38 +P with me on a normal day, but as I said, the M&P almost always stays in the car.
For me and my fat gut, this is the best set up for me, conceals well and is OK as far as comfort but eventually I will need to get wider softer straps if I want to wear it longer as it can chaff.
I agree with this.
Your statement drives the point home. I am, however, still a "Boy Scout" and as such I will "be prepared" for the times when I might mistakenly take a wrong turn and end up somewhere I'd rather not be. The OP inquiry of "just a BUG" in my case means it isn't a fully engraved BBQ gun, it's just a 2" 5 shot .357 revolver in stainless steel. Completely reliable, but no frills.
mljdeckard
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I won't mock someone for carrying two guns. Saying it's silly to carry two, or that you are paranoid for carrying two is just as disingenuous as the antis telling us we are paranoid for carrying one. We live in a world where bad things happen. If you are using your carry gun, it's because a combination of bad things have all decided to happen at once. If one bad thing can happen (you are in a position where you need to use deadly force) then it is not only possible, it is LIKELY that another bad thing is about to happen. (Your gun gets knocked out of your hand, you only have one hand, you can't reach it, it malfunctions, etc.) Being better prepared is not something you should be mocked for.
Having said that, I don't have a BUG and don't have any near-term plans to get one. For me, it's a question of practicality. I think that most of the advantage of carrying comes from having a gun in the first place. The law of diminishing returns comes in very quickly when you talking about carrying a second one. When I am in college classes (I'm on a ......extended intermittent plan,) I have books, laptop, extra pair of glasses, cell phone, pistol, extra mags, knife, and flashlight. When it's cold, throw in a hoodie and a jacket. ANOTHER gun is not likely to benefit me in any way if I have to reach around everything to get it at all.
There is also the consideration of liability. I use the military definition of secure for firearms handling. It is on your person or within line-of sight at all times. All weapons and their extras. If I have TWO guns, this means, TWO sets of extra mags, holsters, etc that can not only get lost or misplaced, I also have to make sure they are under my absolute control at all times. With kids around me all of the time, I don't see it is worth the extra risk.
Having said that, I don't have a BUG and don't have any near-term plans to get one. For me, it's a question of practicality. I think that most of the advantage of carrying comes from having a gun in the first place. The law of diminishing returns comes in very quickly when you talking about carrying a second one. When I am in college classes (I'm on a ......extended intermittent plan,) I have books, laptop, extra pair of glasses, cell phone, pistol, extra mags, knife, and flashlight. When it's cold, throw in a hoodie and a jacket. ANOTHER gun is not likely to benefit me in any way if I have to reach around everything to get it at all.
There is also the consideration of liability. I use the military definition of secure for firearms handling. It is on your person or within line-of sight at all times. All weapons and their extras. If I have TWO guns, this means, TWO sets of extra mags, holsters, etc that can not only get lost or misplaced, I also have to make sure they are under my absolute control at all times. With kids around me all of the time, I don't see it is worth the extra risk.
PT1911, I think you may be reading into the BUG discussions that pop up from time to time. You're thread has dozens of posts now, and not one person has even tried to argue that a back up gun is or should be less reliable than any other gun on which a person would rely for defense of self or others. My BUG isn't more or less reliable than my primary, but both are reliable enough - they've never failed. If either did, that gun would not be used in a defensive role until fixed and wrung out for several trouble-free range sessions. While I won't speak for others, I will say that the idea you present in your OP isn't one I've seen prominently featured as a theory for defensive gunning.
Those of you who dislike the idea of carrying two guns, simply don't do it. No reason to derail someone else's thread over it.
Those of you who dislike the idea of carrying two guns, simply don't do it. No reason to derail someone else's thread over it.
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Some of the posts against a BUG only goes to show how out of touch some people are.
How about the recent story of the open carry hero that shot the bad guy after the bad guy shot the storekeeper? The hero got lucky plain and simple. He had only five rounds and his gun broke.
A NY reload is faster than a regular reload which most people never practice anyway. And if you've paid attention to recent trends whether police or civilian, the bad guys are shooting first and expending more rounds.
A gun is a man made object which isn't perfect. Even the most expensive firearm can fail at any time. Carrying a BUG has nothing to do with paranoia, machoism or the like. It is simply being prepared. The same as carrying a spare tire.
Think about it seriously. While us civilians don't have the obligation to chase bad guys, that doesn't mean that they wont chase us. Is doesn't mean that we can't be cornered in our home or on the street by multiple assailants. The same aweful things can happen to us the same as they could happen to cops. We don't have body armor. No long gun. No radio to call for backup. No dog. No police car. So if you can agree with what I just said, why would you not carry a BUG? AND a reload for at least one of those guns. How many cops have been shot with their own guns? Most of those didn't have a BUG and should have.
Quite simply, most people don't want to be bothered by carrying a second gun. It takes conviction and dedication.
One gun isn't enough. Not these days.
How about the recent story of the open carry hero that shot the bad guy after the bad guy shot the storekeeper? The hero got lucky plain and simple. He had only five rounds and his gun broke.
A NY reload is faster than a regular reload which most people never practice anyway. And if you've paid attention to recent trends whether police or civilian, the bad guys are shooting first and expending more rounds.
A gun is a man made object which isn't perfect. Even the most expensive firearm can fail at any time. Carrying a BUG has nothing to do with paranoia, machoism or the like. It is simply being prepared. The same as carrying a spare tire.
Think about it seriously. While us civilians don't have the obligation to chase bad guys, that doesn't mean that they wont chase us. Is doesn't mean that we can't be cornered in our home or on the street by multiple assailants. The same aweful things can happen to us the same as they could happen to cops. We don't have body armor. No long gun. No radio to call for backup. No dog. No police car. So if you can agree with what I just said, why would you not carry a BUG? AND a reload for at least one of those guns. How many cops have been shot with their own guns? Most of those didn't have a BUG and should have.
Quite simply, most people don't want to be bothered by carrying a second gun. It takes conviction and dedication.
One gun isn't enough. Not these days.
i have a 642 in my left coat or vest pocket. my primeary in IWB at 4 oclock. i put my car keys in left pocket [ there is a custom divider--nothing touches the gun] punk points a knife at me from 10 feet away and says "give me the keys".
make any sense to you know to have two guns?
he saw me put the keys in that pocket--
he expects me to reach into that pocket--
he didn't expect what happend to him next
I just read a story about a guy in the legal section who had two guns, some loose ammo, and a loaded high-cap mag in the car and was caught with it all after someone called the police on him and his girlfriend fighting for a domestic dispute.
Honestly, I can understand how the officers got off on the wrong foot, even though what they did was illegal (they illegally detained him/placed him under arrest); I think having multiple weapons with lots of ammo looks shady.
It isn't illegal but having a PP weapon and then a BUG and then some extra ammo for both would seem a little overkill. I think I agree with the the OP but for different reasons. Carrying multiple firearms isn't such a good idea and the guy in the legal section nailed the reason why. TROUBLE. It looks like that person is out to go to war instead of just protect themselves. At least, I can understand why an officer might construe it that way.
Honestly, I can understand how the officers got off on the wrong foot, even though what they did was illegal (they illegally detained him/placed him under arrest); I think having multiple weapons with lots of ammo looks shady.
It isn't illegal but having a PP weapon and then a BUG and then some extra ammo for both would seem a little overkill. I think I agree with the the OP but for different reasons. Carrying multiple firearms isn't such a good idea and the guy in the legal section nailed the reason why. TROUBLE. It looks like that person is out to go to war instead of just protect themselves. At least, I can understand why an officer might construe it that way.
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And the idea that a BUG should be more/less/equally reliable to the primary applies to that case how?
I'm more prone to listen to the experts than some guy on the internet and I defy anyone to come up with a qualified trainer that would not recommend a back up gun.
I understand, I'm just saying we know that cops aren't exactly objective and act according to the letter of the law so being prudent, appearing prudent, and having "enough" I think is the best way to stave off misunderstandings.
A BUG may or may not be tactically sound, in fact, it probably is, but I'm sure a cop has to think, in his pessimism, that the person who is armed to teeth is out for trouble over just for PP.
Thanks my .02 anyway.
A BUG may or may not be tactically sound, in fact, it probably is, but I'm sure a cop has to think, in his pessimism, that the person who is armed to teeth is out for trouble over just for PP.
Thanks my .02 anyway.
Macchina
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I agree. If you want to carry two guns, go for it. I don't ever feel the need to carry two guns, and only carry one when I am going some place where I feel I may need it (hiking, downtown, long walks, night, etc.). To me, the probability of having to use my primary CCW is extremely low, but there is a chance I may need it someday. The chances of my extremely reliable P239 failing is so remote that I might as well also carry a lightning rod as well to prevent attacks from the weather. I can understand an officer or infantry man having backups because of the likelyhood of using his primary, but a normal citizen is getting a little paranoid. I would also agree with the argument that a person carrying multiple guns in a SD defense situation would most likely be painted as somebody looking for a fight by a prosecutor.
On another note, if you enjoy carrying firearms (as some people do), then that is whole different story.
On another note, if you enjoy carrying firearms (as some people do), then that is whole different story.
"I would also agree with the argument that a person carrying multiple guns in a SD defense situation would most likely be painted as somebody looking for a fight by a prosecutor."
Michael my exact sentiments only add by some police officers as well (evidenced by the guy on the legal blogs encounter)...
Michael my exact sentiments only add by some police officers as well (evidenced by the guy on the legal blogs encounter)...
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