Buying my first handgun - help needed!

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Just a quick update:

Today finally sorted out everything with my CCW permit process. If everything goes good I should get my permit this week. After that I'll do some more thinking about revolver vs. pistol thing and will go to a range to try out few of my options (the ones available for tryout) - then I'll finally decide on what to buy.

Thanks for all the support!
 
Hallo guys - little update.

Today I got my permit for a purchase of a handgun. So now I can go shopping for a gun. Hopefully in a week I'll shoot few guns and decide on what to get. After buying the gun I'll have to register it in the police and then I'll get my CCW license.

Thanks for everything!
 
RadekSkylark

Good to hear that you've got your permit to purchase a handgun. Let us know what you decide to go with (revolver or semi-auto), and post some photos of what you eventually buy.
 
Hallo again.

Today for final time I went to shops which sell the guns on my list. Specifically I went to the shop which sells the Glock 26, then another shop that has a range and sells Glock 19 and that S&W 640 (I'm pretty sure that's a 640) and then finally to the shop that has Makarov and Sig Sauer P230 for sale.

When I went to the shop with a range I wanted to fire few of my first bullets with the Glock 19, Makarov, Sig Sauer P230 and the S&W 640. My goal was just to get a little feel of these guns as they are my most probable choices. Unfortunately there was quite a huge queue to get to shooting and as I was interested in possibly buying Glock 19 or S&W 640 from them they gave me to shoot of few rounds with both guns without waiting in queue. As one shot costs 1,15$ with range gun and I only wanted to get a little feel of how those guns handle I went on to shoot 5 rounds with both of these guns.

I forgot to tell the guy to load up the S&W 640 with .38 Special rounds so he loaded the .357 Magnums. I was shooting from 10 yards - the guy stood me there and clearly it didn't really make any difference to me as my goal at that moment was just to feel out those guns. My impressions where shocking. First of all I didn't think that the trigger pull will be so heavy. When I first pulled the trigger I pulled it with the strength I though would be necessary to fire the gun - trigger didn't even move a bit - that was when I realized just how heavy that trigger is - I really had to put though into squeezing it. On top of that I have to be honest - I was not prepared for that recoil. Not that I got hit with the handgun in my face, I just didn't think it would recoil that hard. I was trying to stand in isosceles stance and tried to hold the handgun firmly. Although now looking back, I think I should've held it even stronger. After 3rd or 4th shot I felt the recoil in my hand a bit. First shot I fired of was quite a good one (beginners luck I think) - hit around an inch from the center of the target. Second shot hit something like inch lower that the first (diagonally). The rest 3 where all over the place (hits, though). But again, I did my best just to feel out the gun - training makes perfect.

After that I tried out the Glock 19. Of course sights were nicer and I could try to get more accurate shots on target. Recoil was no where as hard as that of the S&W 640 with .357 rounds. Trigger squeeze was a breeze compared to the S&W 640 - I really didn't need to put a lot of though in to it - when I decided to fire the gun it was easily accomplished. The hits in general where a bit tighter group (all scattered over the place anyway), though non of the hits where as good as the first two with that S&W 640, even though I tried much harder to aim and hit my intended target than with the revolver.

Because of the fact that i would have needed to wait for quite a while to shoot with the Makarov and Sig Sauer P230 I decided to leave it at that as I didn't have the time and I though that even if I would the range would close and I could possibly leave without shooting those guns. So I decided to leave it at that, as the main thing for me was to compare that S&W revolver to a decent pistol - which I'm really happy I did - it really gave me another perspective to my though process.

After shooting I asked instructor would the .38 Special rounds have considerably less recoil than those .357 Magnum and he answered that the recoil is smaller, although not that much. Can you guys conform this? Or would that recoil be considerably smaller making the gun much easier to manage?

My though after firing my first 10 rounds ever are as fallows:
1) I would definitely need to get accustomed to the recoil and trigger pull of that S&W 640 to learn to shoot well;
2) As I consider the revolver for a possibility of a situation where I have only one hand available for operation of handgun after today I have a feeling that getting accurate shots on target beyond 3-4 yards with one hand only could be a real challenge (it could be my lack of experience talking, though). On the other hand the possibility of me being limited to one hand operations could be the highest in that 3 yards range which could involve animal attack, attacker with a knife or something of similar nature where I use one of my hands to defend. Although situations where my hand could be injured or if I would hold my child with my hand could arise even in further shooting distance scenarios in which case it could be a real challenge to connect with my shots one handed especially if I'm moving. What do you guys think about this aspect? Does this aspect makes a revolver less favorable choice in one handed situations, not even considering reloads here? Or am I wrong and shooting precisely at distances beyond 3-4 yards one handed with a .38 Special J-frame is plenty doable?
3) The Glock felt good in my hand, I liked the original sights (of course I don't know better) - they seemed to be easily usable for me. The recoil was much lighter, trigger pull was more pleasant.

On top of these experiences I have few more thoughts after holding the Glock 26 and Makarov in my hands at the shops visited.

I liked the Glock 26, I know I would need to get accustomed to that two finger grip, but from the size perspective I really liked that gun - it was really small for what I understand. Also I was expecting it to be more bulkier. Of course when I compared it to Glock 43 it was noticeably wider. Though I don't think that difference is enough for me to consider paying more for a brand new Glock 43 instead of that Glock 26 in a good condition. Also I felt that if I couldn't manage to comfortably conceal Glock 26 I shouldn't be able to conceal any of the pistols/revolver in my list - the Glock 26 so far seems for me to be the most concealable pistol from my list. Also I noticed it to be a little bit challenging to push the magazine release button (the Glock 26 is a 3rd gen with texture between finger grooves), although I think it is a matter of practice.

I really liked the salesman (owner) of the shop that sells Makarovs and those Sig Sauer P230 on my list. He was super friendly and consulted me well. I told him my today's experiences and asked him to consult me on Makarov vs Sig Sauer P230. He told me the two main things why he likes the Makarov better (not even talking about the price, which of course for Makarov is almost half of the Sig Sauer P230). Have to also add that he has carried Makarov for many years and now he has been carrying a Glock 19 for past few years. The first thing he doesn't like is that Sig Sauer P230 doesn't have a slide stop, which would make it more difficult to deal with a double feed malfunction. The second thing is that Makarov from his experience has a little bit lighter recoil. Just to add to the price difference of these guns 9x18 rounds also are a little bit cheaper. Also he told me that they soon will have in stock some kind of Makarov grip which has a regular magazine release button on the side of the handle - although for me it will cost almost the same amount as the gun itself (if someone has a link to a description of this grip I would appreciate if you could provide me that link). He told me if I buy Makarov I should chose between Russian or East German Makarovs. He things that East German Makarovs are higher quality so I asked him to show me what he has. So he showed me a box of Makarov pistols they bough off of a bank security service which was reorganized - there were used Makarovs in normal condition for around 80$ (as mentioned in the OP), but for my surprise he also has NEW Makarovs for 115$ with two magazines. I was shocked when I saw those totally black Makarovs (the seems blued or something). They were in perfect condition. No scratches from carrying on the tip of the slide, no visible mark from bullets in the barrel, oiled like totally new - I haven't seen many guns, but those were really clean. Really, they seemed like a perfect peaces for collection. If I'll decide to go with a Makarov I will definitely get one of those and post the pictures - they seems so perfect.

So I'm set on making my mind till next week when I think I'll but either S&W 640, Glock 26 or East German Makarov (pretty much in new condition). The price difference between those Makarovs and Glock 26 is 345$ (+ around 35$ for a second magazine for the Glock). Also, for Makarov or Glock there is a possibility that I'll be able to get a decent IWB holster locally (at the same shop those Makarovs are sold - they make thier own holsters). I think I shouldn't have problems concealing a Makarov also. Getting a S&W 640 will require me to order IWB holster and speed loader from US.

Hope you guys can help me with some advice to make this choice a bit easier.

Thank you for every thing - your guidance has been a bless.
 
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A .357 in a J Frame is, in my humble opinion, not a good thing. The first 640s were .38 Spl. only and had shorter barrels---- what a snubbie is supposed to be. Hot .357s will eventually crack the forcing cones of a K frame given time so it would seem a smaller J frame would be at a greater risk.
Also the "hammerless" J frame has an unusual trigger that takes some getting used to----they have a distinct pause which if cued(?if that is the right word?) correctly offers single action pull.
Snubbies take a lot of work to master, and a lot of ammunition. I'd look carefully into the availability and prices of .38 ammo before tackling the wee revolver. A Parabellum would probably be more practical.
 
If you didn't like the revolver's trigger, you'll HATE the trigger on the Makarov in its double-action mode.

However, since law requires you carry with an empty chamber, that point is meaningless as you'll have to rack the slide at the first sign of trouble, which will cock the hammer for you.

Yes, your revolver "test" wasn't fair, as you were loaded with the wrong ammunition. There is indeed a strong difference between .38 Special and .357 Magnum, particularly from such a small handgun.
 
Thanks for replay MedWheeler.

Not that I didn't like the revolver's trigger, I just didn't think it'll be so heavy. If I'll practice I know I'll have no problem with it - it is heavy for a reason I think, isn't it?

Do you think that I should go back and try that revolver with .38 Specials in it or is it enough to just know that the recoil is actually a lot lighter?

Maybe for comparison you could tell me how a recoil from a S&W 640 with .38 special would compare to a recoil of a Glock 19 with usual 9x19 FMJ rounds? Is it similar, or maybe a little stronger? Because recoil of that S&W 640 with .357 Magnum felt a lot stronger than that of a Glock 19.

P.S. I suppose that if I'll go with the S&W 640 I would give it to a gunsmith for a trigger job if that's not a bad idea...?

Thanks
 
Yes, you definitely should go back and try the 640 with .38 Spl. ammo instead of .357 Mag.! It will seem tame after the .357's. The gun range should have known better.

The recoil impulses of .38 Spl. and 9x19 are about the same mathematically, but the recoil impulse is spread out over a longer time in a semi-auto. (Granted, this time is measured in milliseconds, but it changes the "feel" of the recoil) The semi-auto will "feel" like it has a lighter recoil.

As for the trigger pull of a double-action revolver being heavier than the Glock's (in particular) is that the the trigger has to work against three springs, and push the cylinder into position to fire, all within that short amount of travel. The Glock is striker fired, and only has to move the sprung firing pin a short distance and over come the angle on the connector to fire. So, yes it is lighter.

A trigger job on any Smith & Wesson revolver is a good thing. Have your gunsmith put Wolff springs in it, they are excellent.

MedWheeler is right about the Makarov's DA trigger being terrible, and again about it being a moot point with the required empty chamber carry.

As for the 640's trigger pull-John Joseph is right: The 640's (and any J-Frame) trigger has a short amount of travel after the cylinder turns (near the end of the pull) that can be used to fire like a single action. Practicing (empty!) with it for a short while will make it easy to 'find' where this is on your 640.
 
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The Sig P230 is a wonderful little pistol. If you can get one at that price range, it is a bargain. I think the Sig is better made than the USA imports. Having said that, since you really like the owner who sells Maks and Sigs, go with what your gut tells you. The owner will be able to help with holster and seems to be willing to take the time to answer questions. Good Luck!
 
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Yes, Radek, try to get some .38 time with the .38 revolver. The trigger's long pull is definitely there for a reason, and that's to eliminate the need for a safety lever or block. That gun's not going off unless you want it to. The pull is certainly manageable; revolvers served law enforcement for nearly 100 years just like that.
 
One more though you guys could maybe comment on...

Here is a list of priorities in a defensive gun usage scenario (from my perspective):
1) Ability to carry a handgun with you at all times;
2) Ability to draw it fast and to prepare the handgun for shooting (drawing and racking a slide on a semi-auto or just drawing a revolver);
3) Ability to hit the target;
4) Ability to shoot for as long as possible (thus capacity of a handgun);
5) Ability to reload a handgun as fast as possible to continue shooting.

I've come down to this (analysis):
1) I feel I will only be able to carry a small handgun on my person, if I want to carry all the time - thus I'm limited to S&W 640, Makarov or Glock 26;
2) Drawing could be quite similar with all of the three handguns mentioned, but of course revolver is the best when it comes to preparing it for shooting;
3) For distances up to 10 yards I think that with practice there is negligible difference. Although for me, a beginner, I feel that the lower cost of semi-auto ammo and the lighter trigger of a semi-auto could give me advantage when I just start carrying/training;
4) Revolver has only 5 shots, Makarov 8 and Glock 26 - 10. So semi-autos have the advantage here;
5) I'm pretty certain that in a stressful situation average Joe like myself could reload a semi-auto faster.


I really believe that the only pro of a S&W 640 that I really appreciate is the fact that it is ready to fire all the time - which is really important to at least start defending yourself (especially in a one handed operation situation). Although now I'm starting to think about gunfight statistics on bullets fired vs hits... as fat as I know generally you miss at least 50% of shots if target is not statics etc. So with this in mind I think that I could count only on 3 bullets that would hit my intended target in a self defense situation. Three .38 Special FMJ rounds could definitely be not enough to stop an attacker (if there is only one attacker - if I would connect in stomach bullets will over-penetrate and my attacker will be coming forward at least for some time until bleeding stops him). If that happens or if there are multiple attackers I'm pretty sure there wont be enough time to do a reload on a revolver. Is is also supported by what I read on luckygunner.com, I quote: "Tom Givens, one of the most experienced and respected firearms instructors in the country, has been quoted as saying, “In 40 years I’ve been doing this, I have never found a case where someone successfully reloaded a revolver in a close range gunfight.” Since 90-95% of armed civilian gun fights happen inside the “close range” of 7 yards, I’d say your chances of pulling off that revolver reload are slim to none."Thus, I'm now thinking that there is quite a large possibility that I could just be done after 5 shots without being able to reload my revolver, in which case I wouldn't have really fulfilled my mission of defending myself or my family. Thus having a handgun could still be not enough to get through, just because of capacity. On the other hand if I would have a semi-auto with higher capacity there would be higher chance of me stopping the attacker if I start shooting just because of the capacity. And if I'll need a reload there is at least some possibility that in a stressful situation I could have a better chance making a reload and continuing to fight.


From this thorough analysis I've come to a conclusion that there are two separate situations to consider - one where the fight is close quarters and second when there is at least few yards distance.

In the first situation (close quarters - basically hand to hand combat distance) there would be a high possibility of being limited to one handed operations. In such a situation if there is only one attacker I would be able to draw the revolver and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't miss much as the distance is super close (if of course wild fighting is not going on). So in such a situation 1 on 1 I should be ok with only 5 shots and I shouldn't need an instant reload. So in this situation the revolver could hold the advantage over semi-auto because it is ready to fire instantly after I draw it. If this situation contains multiple attackers I'm screwed pretty much anyway, if I'm not able to separate and get some distance to bring the gun into play.

The second situation is one where I could possibly have one or multiple attackers and I would have some time to draw the gun and chamber a round. So in this situation semi-autos all the way (at least I think so at this moment).

It seems that it really comes down to the most probable situation I could be in. If that is hand-to-hand combat distance where I would need to draw my gun and shoot really fast, possibly being limited to only one handed operations, a revolver would be the best choice. If, on the other hand, the most likely situation is one where there is some distance between me and the attacker so I have enough time to use both of my hands to chamber the round I think I could possibly be better of with a semi-auto.

Of course there are some exceptions to both these situations but I think these give the general idea.


What I wanted to ask guys:
1) which situation do you think is more probable in reality?
2) would you better carry a revolver with 5 rounds and get of them fast connecting maybe with only 3, and then start to scramble for a reload, or would you better scramble for distance to get some time for chambering a round in a semi-auto pistol and having a higher capacity which could be the difference between live and death with over-penetrating FMJ's?

Thank again - you're the best!
 
Only you can answer what scenarios are most likely, but in general, attacks happen very quickly, and at short distances. That's just in general and the assailants usually have the advantage of initiating the attack.

There have been long long long discussions on this board multiple times about carrying with an empty chamber. This is just one thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=530949

I personally wouldn't carry with an empty chamber.
 
if you use the money you save buying the markarov on range time, it would be the gun for you.
none of your options is worth much until you get used to it.
training is everything.
as to the revolver, it will get your first shot off fastest.
there's a quote i like, but forget who said it, talking about revolvers:

''if i can't get it done with 6, i can't get it done.''
 
It doesn't matter how many rounds a semi auto has if you can't fire it immediately upon drawing. You will have to draw, remembering to push that safety down (on the Mak, the Glock doesn't have an external safety) and rack the slide. This is physically impossible with one hand, unless you want to trust a "belt rack" to that tiny rear sight on the Makarov, or the plastic rear sight on the Glock. A belt rack is using the rear sight to hook on the belt and then push the pistol down to rack the slide. Not the easiest thing to do under duress.

In my experience, generally, reloading a revolver is slower than a semi. That said, with a little practice, reloading a J-frame S&W with the Safariland Comp I speedloader drawn from the matching 'pouch' for it is as fast as reloading either of my semi autos. Any other make or model of speedloader or speed strip is a lot slower, and/or not concealable. The only revolver loading system that is faster is full moon clips, which are for .45 ACP chambered revolvers, or other revolvers that have been modified for them.

This list of priorities for a defensive handgun was posted on another gun forum:

1. Reliability, 2. Reliability, 3. Reliability, and 4. Stopping Power.

While the Makarov and the Glock are very reliable pistols, in your instance the fact that they have to be carried disabled, (That is, not ready to fire immediately) reduces the reliability. The fact that you have to actuate the action to get it into Condition 0 [round in chamber, safety off] at a time when your motor skills (and cognitive functions) are going to be shot to hell from adrenaline dump makes getting it into action quickly and successfully less likely.

We've had people on this forum who live here in the US raise the question of whether carrying a round in the chamber is best, or whether to carry in Condition 3, like you are required to with a semi. The general response was "Why would you hamstring yourself like that?"

I found this article on Condition 3 carry very interesting:


https://tgace.com/2011/11/08/condition-1-carry-vs-the-israeli-method/

The 'only' pro of the 640, as you put it, is a very, very important one! Being able to just draw and fire without having to perform feats of prestidigitation that would make any magician proud is a HUGE advantage-and in personal defense, you need every advantage you can get!

My recommendation remains the S&W 640. (With a reload in a Comp I.) And again, I agree with susieqz, whichever option you go with, train with it, and keep training! I see guys at the range all the time forget to even take the safety off, and they aren't even under attack. :eek:
 
Any of the handguns will work more than adequately if you do your part.
The more bullets down the spout in training to more confident you'll be, and having confidence is big. Really big. Scenarios are only scenarios---that they resemble reality at all is really amazing because anything can happen anywhere and anytime and an attacker maybe hasn't even thought of the same scenarios you've trained for.

I went from carrying a 6 shot Detective Special to a 5 shot 640 because of an ambush where an unarmed young couple were murdered at random by a gang banger as part of a gang initiation. Had they been carrying they likely still would have been killed---the attack was so fast and unexpected (at a shopping mall during the Christmas rush.) I went to the 640 (which had just come on the market---perhaps the first one in my town) because with nothing to foul on the lining I could shoot(at very close range) it through a coat pocket if I practiced and mastered point shooting. It now seems silly to give up a round just because of one incident, but I've spent so much time with the 640 now it comes very natural to me.
I think any of the handguns you're considering would serve you well.
Pick one and train with it---and don't look back. It's not the firearm as much as it is you.
 
For what it's worth, your discussion with your gunshop friend about the makarov resulted in reasonably accurate information for your consideration. The perceived recoil will be less with that pistol. If I were in your shoes, the PM would be my choice hands-down.

It's cheap, ammo is cheap, you can practice tons with it, and you have a large base of support there for the pistol. Recoil is mild, the pistol is mechanically reliable, and you can become competent with it. Yes I know you have to carry with empty chamber, but...
 
RadekSkylark

Given the requirement that you can only carry a semi-auto with an empty chamber I would be strongly in favor of the S&W Model 640 with .38 Special ammunition.
 
After thinking about it I decided to buy that S&W 640. Decided that before buying it I should shoot it once more with those .38 Specials. It turns out that the gun range didn't have any .38 Special in stock and they actually told me that they've previously bought out all the local shops (thus they bought all the .38 special ammo which was available at local shops). They also told me that the supply of .38 specails is not that constant - there are moments when ammo for reasonable prices is not available. At that moment I understood that I need to call up local shops to check if there are any .38 special rounds avaialble. Only two shops had some ammunition. One of shops has some .38 Specials left, but their price is 0,64$/pc. Another shops claims thay they have a constant supply of Seller & Bellot .38 Specials - these cost 0,46$/pc. At that moment I understood that I really need to overthink buying that revolver just because of the fact that I would possibly need to relay on one company for ammo. Not only that, I realized that ammo for 9x18 and 9x19 is 0,24$/pc. (constant supply) which is 53% of the .38 special ammo. Basically I could get two times the ammount of training with 9x18 or 9x19 compared to a .38 special in a revolver. I mean I decided that revolver beeing ready to fire at all times is what I need, but at the same time I understood that I would be limited to around 50 rounds instead of around 100 in a month for practice + I wouldn't be able to really implement any airsoft/airgun training. Will I be able to get good with such a limited amount of practice to only get a gun ready to fire instantly after a draw? So is a chambered gun that important on would cut their practice in half compared to a semi-auto?

What do you guys think?
 
RadekSkylark

Typically .38 Special target ammo (148 grain wadcutter), is fairly inexpensive versus more specialized self defense ammo. Another thing I would see about is the possibility of reloading your own ammo.
 
I'm not sure what is the exact ammo available (usual round nose FMJ or wadcutter), but the fact that it seems that I could only count on one shop delivering my ammo seems a bit frightening.

P.S. Our Law doesn't allow for reloading self defense handgun rounds (thus rounds which are for self defense handguns). It only allows to reload hunting and sports rifle rounds.
 
I can, but to do that not only I need that country from which I buy ammo to ship to Latvia, but I also need a permit for importing ammo. It will definitely not be cheaper than buying locally (if ammo would be available).
 
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RadekSkylark

I would definitely try to find a dealer who could place a large order for you, with maybe a 70/30 split between practice ammo and self defense ammo.
 
I could possibly do that with the same dealer who claims that he has .38 special in stock all the time... Although the price of ammo would definitely remain. Do you also think that it is wise to take revolver with 50 rounds a month and train with live fire less instead of a semi-auto with 100 rounds a month?
 
RadekSkylark

Well the extra practice with more (and less expensive), ammo is always a good thing but there's still the issue with having to carry the semi-auto with an empty chamber. You would most definitely have to train quite a bit more with a semi-auto while developing a technique that works 100% for you every time.

With the revolver your gun presentation and acquisition of your sights on target would go more smoothly and possibly be more instinctive, than attempting to rack the slide of your gun to chamber a round and then be ready to use it.
 
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