Buying my first handgun - help needed!

[susieqz]

when i carry a semi auto, i carry with no round chambered.
since the israelis do it, i figured i could too.
i do this to prevent accidents.
however, no matter how much i practice, this is slow.
perhaps if you could get a good smith to make racking the slide easier, that might help.
i have pretty much stopped carrying semi autos, because i refuse to carry a round chambered.
i now carry a model 15. that's a 38 n it's much faster. i'm very accurate with it too. i won't need more than 6 shots.

may i suggest you save money like i did?
i couldn't afford centerfire ammo in the quantities i needed.
so, i practiced with a 22/45. 22lr is much cheaper than any other ammo.
people say you must train with the same style 22 as your carry gun. this is incorrect.
i have fired more than 10,000 training rounds n i can pick up any handgun of any style n do well with it.
when i got the m15, it took less than 100 rounds for me to shoot a 3'' group at 25 yards.
this is despite the fact that my training was with a semi auto.
if you check the numbers you will find that the savings in ammo more than pay for the cost of the 22.
plus, you can always sell it when you become proficient.

 

[goon]

Wow - congrats on joining the shooting community. It's always cool to hear of someone in another country getting interested.

I'd also go with the Makarov following your original logic on price. You can always swap it out later if your tastes change and probably not lose much money. If Makarovs were still available in the US for a reasonable price, I'd buy two. Solid pistols.

 

[entropy]

You don't have to fire lots of ammo to practice drawing. That you can practice with the gun empty. Just be very, very sure it is empty! You will of course still want to fire rounds in practice, first getting used to the gun, find out where it shoots to with which load, etc., then drawing and firing. Just remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. That is, practice slow first until you have it down, then progress in speed gradually as you develop skill and become more comfortable with it.

BTW, check with Pyramyd Air, http://www.pyramydair.com/ , they do sell revolver airguns, though the short barreled options aren't too numerous. There are some 2.5" ones, and some 4" ones, they'd work for training purposes.

 

[RadekSkylark]

So you guys think that it would still be best for me to buy a revolver with twice less ammo for live fire training in every month?

 

[roscoe]

There will never be consensus on your choice. Just go to the range and try a bunch out and remember that you will forget about half of what you know when the adrenaline starts flowing. I personally prefer not to have a safety, since it takes finer motor skills, but obviously there are some that use the 1911. A 4" revolver or a modern quality 9mm semi-auto (Glock/S&W/Ruger type) are my choices for good beginner's guns. But your skills are far more important than the specifics of teh handgun.

 

[entropy]

So you guys think that it would still be best for me to buy a revolver with twice less ammo for live fire training in every month?

Yes. And get a revolver pellet gun for additional practice, or if that isn't feasible, you can dry fire practice; it does help with trigger control and sight picture, and you can practice drawing. And again, look into the Comp I speedloader and it's pouch. Brownell's, http://www.brownells.com/ , lists the speedloader, and can special order the pouch. If they don't ship internationally direct from the US, they have partner sites in Germany, Sweden, Norway, and Finland that might be able to ship to you. (Or maybe you could pop across the Bay of Bothnia...)



goon- He can't just 'swap out' easily like we can here. The police have to approve his choice, red tape, etc. Also the choices are very limited there.
Would you stilll carry a Makarov if you had to carry with the safety on and an empty chamber? Those are the requirements he faces in Latvia.

roscoe-If you had read the thread, you'd have seen he's already done that. You'd have also read that his choices are very limited, and that he has thought this out very thoroughly.

 

[RadekSkylark]

I tried to search the internet for some info on what would be the optimal minimum amount of handgun live fire training per month to develop decent skill , but unfortunately didn't find any info other than many threads in different forums where everyone shares how much round they've shoot average per months.

That actually was a bit shocking from the perspective of my limited budget for ammo. I would say that the lowest average was around 50-150 rounds per week. Maybe only 5% of people who chimed in those stats had been shooting less than 200 rounds per months with the total average being around 400 rounds per months (not even talking about the ones who shoot 1000+ rounds per months, which would be less than I could afford to shoot per year with a .38 revolver).

So really - what would you guys say is the minimum amount of rounds per month necessary to develop good skill to be able to shoot decent groups up till lets say 10 yards (of course supplemented with how much dry fire practice necessary)?

And do you all really think that I will be ok with a revolver for carry and only 50 round limit per month for live fire training (possibly I could supplement that with shooting an airsoft or BB revolver, although I don't see that being a game changer - I should be able to get good with trigger control, drawing and reloading in dry fire drills) instead of a semi-auto (carrying condition 3) with 100 round limit per month?

Thanks!

 

[entropy]

I recommend about 100 rounds for your first outing with your revolver. You'll use the first box getting used to the trigger and general feel of the gun. Then you can concentrate on where it is hitting in relation to where it is aimed.
Start at as short a range as is possible, for two reasons; 1, to be able to control your groups, both size and location on target. Once you've worked that out, then 2., you can work on your draw. Start slow, remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. When you can draw and fire a round into a 4" circle within 2 seconds at 3 meters, then you can move back to say 7 meters. Once you can do the same there, then practice firing more than one round, and vary the number. If you practice shooting two rounds, or three every time, you'll stop there during an attack on you, and you may need to fire more rounds. This has happened to CCW carriers and Police Officers who trained to fire two, bring the gun to low ready, and assess. Some died.

Yes, I believe you will be fine with 50 rounds per month (after the initial 100 rounds) because if you train even half as thoroughly as you've researched this, you will be well-trained in no time.

 

[MedWheeler]

If you shoot 2,000 rounds in your first year, and then 50-100 per month thereafter, you'd already be ahead of many police officers here.

Coupled with dry-fire practice, air pistol or AirSoft time, and mental/physical conditioning, and you'd be leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of them, as well as most armed civilians..

 

[RadekSkylark]

Thanks guys for info.

I have decided that I'll buy the S&W 640 and after that I'll see what other semi-auto pistols I could buy in future for possibly attendance and training for practical shooting competition matches locally - hopefully a semi-auto that could be carried as well (as far as I know they are based on IPSC rules etc).

I don't want to spam or advertise, but my decision about choosing the revolver got a lot easier after watching this video (I've been fallowing this channel for some time - good info on there): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVPiic-ELoM. It really gave me a perspective of the possible situations where I would be glad to be able to draw and fire if necessary.

Additionally I was walking with my pregnant wife around the block yesterday and we walked by a house which had gates open and a rottweiler standing at the gates. The thing was that the owner just drove his car inside the gates and was stupid enough to allow the dog to stay somewhere near... So we didn't see the dog until we went by the gates. Distance between us and the dog was something around 5-7 yards. Fortunately the dog was just standing and didn't even want to run out on us. This also gave me some perspective of whether I could have drawn a semi-auto, chambered a round if the dog would've attacked us - I understood that the revolver would have been the best thing if that would have happened.

Also I though about the reloading aspect. Law allows reloading for hunting and competition guns. I though that maybe I could buy some kind of cheap Taurus .38 Special revolver with long barrel and register it as a competition gun so I could load .38 Special rounds. That could work - I would carry factory ammo, but would practice at range with my reloads (say 80/20 - reloads/factory ammo). I would need to import .38 Special bullets (through some shop - they only have rifle bullets in stock), small pistol primers are available, powder is available (not for pistols though, but I could order the same manufacturers pistol powder from shops selling it) and I could collect my own cases. The question of course becomes would that be cheaper - it could same me possibly some 25% on ammo - did a little calculation of prices. Although that doesn't include my time... The biggest problem with this is the equipment. One shops has Hornady Lock-N-Load Classic Kit for sale and it costs 550$ (+ I would need to buy the dies separately which is additional cost). The price of me importing this kit from USA is a bit higher than this price. If there are cheaper kits available possibly I could get it cheaper. My calculations show that: Sellier & Bellot factory .38 SPL's cost 0,46$/pc., I could possibly reload for something around 0,35$/pc. not including the value of my time. So if I want reloaded round's price to stay pretty much the same I cannot add more than 0,02$/pc. from the investment needed from equipment (which is, lets say 600$). So 600$/(0,02$/pc.) = 30k rounds. If I can afford to shoot 60 reloads per months this gives me ammo for 500 months, which is 41 year and 8 months.... OMG, there is no way this is reasonable for me. The only way would be if I would reload for someone of something - but my time is too worthy of doing that so I don't see reloading as a real option for me. What do you guys think?

Today I noticed one of local shops selling a .22LR revolver (http://www.zommers.lv/lv/militara/ieroci/revolveri/1/58/arminiuss-hw3-kal.22-lr) which I could possibly buy to get some additional live fire training - cheapest .22LR stuff goes for around 0,10$/pc. locally - revolver shouldn't have any problems with the cheap stuff, or should it? This revolver costs 230$. If I buy this and disperse its cost to 40 months of training, I can afford to shoot 25 rounds of .38 Special and 50 rounds of .22LR monthly. Although it doesn't seem worth it - 50 rounds of the actual .38 Special seems money better spend, as from what I understand the main thing I'll be training in live fire drills is recoil control, as drawing, reloading, trigger control and aiming I should be able to train with dry-fire and airsoft drills (at least to some reasonable extent).

So in the end it seems that the best way to compliment my training could possibly be with an airsoft revolver... although it would cost me around 175$. From what I understand it would only give me some feedback for my shot placement, thus I would be able to train trigger control (if trigger is at least somewhere near to the actual trigger on the S&W 640) and aim (would see where my shots go on a target). The only other possible advantage would be to implement it in some force-on-force training which I could try to set up in future with my friends. What do you guys think - is it really worth spending 175$ for an airsoft revolver or would I be better of with spending that money for additional 380 rounds of .38 Special, which I could split up and add to my monthly training ammo or just use at my first few live fire training sessions to boost my initial development?

P.S. On of the "Lucky Gunner" articles was about S&W 640 Pro. Article suggested a good modification for the trigger - https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Details/192058. What do you guys think about it - should I change the springs in that S&W 640? Of course before that I'll try measure how heavy is the trigger on that S&W 640 and possibly then I could lighten it by these springs. Will it still be heavy enough to not cause any problems (safety wise) while carrying? On top of that I'll see if there are any gunsmiths locally and if they could actually convert that S&W 640 .357 Magnum to 9x19 with moonclips - this could come in really handy. Although I'm not sure law allows such modification - will need to verify this. Also not sure if there are any moonclips for 9mm for cylinder of S&W 640. I could possibly design them myself and find a steel manufacturer (some small local shop) who could cut them for me on CNC.

P.S.S. It seems that there will be problems to find online shops from where to order Safariland Comp 1 speed loaders and speed strips (possibly some pouches for speed loaders and maybe something more). Problems are related to international shipping. Anyhow I wonder if there would be someone who could possibly help me with ordering stuff (thus with shipping it to me)? I'm not sure how exactly it would work out but if there is someone who would gladly help I'm sure we could figure a way. That would be especially good because one could send it as gift of something else without adding an invoice to it, so I wouldn't have to pay that extra 21$ tax for my goods.

Anyway, thank you guys - I wouldn't have been able to come this far with my limited amount of knowledge without your help - I really feel that I've already learned a lot in this journey of handgun world.

 

[guyfromohio]

when i carry a semi auto, i carry with no round chambered.
since the israelis do it, i figured i could too.
i do this to prevent accidents.
however, no matter how much i practice, this is slow.
perhaps if you could get a good smith to make racking the slide easier, that might help.
i have pretty much stopped carrying semi autos, because i refuse to carry a round chambered.
i now carry a model 15. that's a 38 n it's much faster. i'm very accurate with it too. i won't need more than 6 shots.

may i suggest you save money like i did?
i couldn't afford centerfire ammo in the quantities i needed.
so, i practiced with a 22/45. 22lr is much cheaper than any other ammo.
people say you must train with the same style 22 as your carry gun. this is incorrect.
i have fired more than 10,000 training rounds n i can pick up any handgun of any style n do well with it.
when i got the m15, it took less than 100 rounds for me to shoot a 3'' group at 25 yards.
this is despite the fact that my training was with a semi auto.
if you check the numbers you will find that the savings in ammo more than pay for the cost of the 22.
plus, you can always sell it when you become proficient.

Why would a revolver with a round chambered be more safe than an auto with round chambered?

 

[MedWheeler]

^^

guyfromohio, leave that one alone. Not only will it derail the thread, but we've been around that block with her before. Don't set yourself up. This will be you if you do. :banghead:

Just poke around her post history.

 

[MedWheeler]

Radek, if the .22 revolver would indeed cut into your .38 practice by that much, then, yes, you should probably hold off on it, though the AirSoft would have nearly the same effect. There's a lot of practice you can do with only your carry gun. See if you can get some snap-caps as well, so you can practice unloading/reloading as well.

My wife and I send stuff to Russia all the time, and haven't had any issues beyond the slow service once it enters that country. Of course, we don't send anything of value, as the Russian "pochta" at customs still isn't well-trusted. When we want further assurance, we just meet up with the next person we know who's going, and have them ship it once inside the country.

I don't see any reason I couldn't send anything to Latvia.

 

[bannockburn]

RadekSkylark

I got a Remington R1 air pistol for Christmas last year so I had a relatively inexpensive way of practicing my draw and initial target aquistion, all in the comfort of my basement. I think a decent airsoft or BB gun revolver would be a good training/practice device; as would a S&W .22 revolver.

 

[entropy]

Reloading: Sounds like it's not worth your time for the savings right now. Pass on it for now, at least. You can always start later if you want to.

.22 revolver: Buying one might not be the best way, but you could rent one at the range (if they have them) and get that initial training on the fundamentals down. A brick (500 rounds) of .22 is a lot of training.

Airsoft: Wow, they are expensive over there! Still, they are good for the fundamentals, but force on force with a snubnose is bad-breath close, and Airsoft HURTS that close! Maybe your buddies are masochists....? The $$ spent on ammo would be a better investment. (Money spent on ammo is always a good investment.


Spring kit: Initially, your probably best off not doing it. After a while, when you are very used to the gun, then yes, it makes sense then.

Comp I, pouch and speed strips. PM sent.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Reloading: Sounds like it's not worth your time for the savings right now. Pass on it for now, at least. You can always start later if you want to.

.22 revolver: Buying one might not be the best way, but you could rent one at the range (if they have them) and get that initial training on the fundamentals down. A brick (500 rounds) of .22 is a lot of training.

Airsoft: Wow, they are expensive over there! Still, they are good for the fundamentals, but force on force with a snubnose is bad-breath close, and Airsoft HURTS that close! Maybe your buddies are masochists....? The $$ spent on ammo would be a better investment. (Money spent on ammo is always a good investment.


Spring kit: Initially, your probably best off not doing it. After a while, when you are very used to the gun, then yes, it makes sense then.

Comp I, pouch and speed strips. PM sent.

Our ranges don't give weapons for rent - they just sell you some count of shots - you choose the weapon and how many round you want to shoot. They give you price per round - usually 9x17, 9x18, 9x19 is around 1,15$/pc., .22LR should be at least half of that - anyway shooting my own .38 Spl would not be more expensive.

About airsoft. There are few options in local shops, but they are also quite expensive, because of the costs of import + everyone wants to earn something, so the prices are quite high. On the other hand there are few options from Polish web shops and of course US. Anyway I've come to a conclusion that 175$ is about right for a gun + spare magazine or speed loader and extra cartridges for BB's. About force-on-force: we would definitely wear some jackets or something to make it less painful. But we play paintball so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be that bad

 

[MedWheeler]

AirSoft and other air guns are indeed expensive in Europe, and even more so in those European countries in which actual firearm ownership is unlawful or heavily restricted. Airgunning is big in those countries; I was just perusing a print magazine yesterday on the subject, which touted itself as "Britain's Number 1 Air Gun Magazine". Their airgun-magazine racks in stores probably look like the racks in ours holding magazines on firearms.

 

[RadekSkylark]

AirSoft and other air guns are indeed expensive in Europe, and even more so in those European countries in which actual firearm ownership is unlawful or heavily restricted. Airgunning is big in those countries; I was just perusing a print magazine yesterday on the subject, which touted itself as "Britain's Number 1 Air Gun Magazine". Their airgun-magazine racks in stores probably look like the racks in ours holding magazines on firearms.

Yes, it is pretty much like that.

Although it is not that hard to get a CCW permit. The biggest problem is that there are many quite small medical diagnosis that make people medically invalid for work with firearms. I also had two minor diagnosis which were made 9 years ago when I was 17 and I had to go through hell in our mental heath institutions to get my papers straight so I could get the permit which also made my path to permit twice as expensive as for usual people who don't have such problems.

 

[RadekSkylark]

I'm not sure anyone noticed, but some time ago I posted an info that there is one Smith & Wesson 686 National Security Special 3" .357 Magnum for sale (costs 445$ and is in pretty much new condition). It comes with two speed loaders.

I met up with the seller last Monday and checked out that gun, seemed good. It holds 6 rounds, has bigger adjustable sights, longer ejector rod. Here is a picture from the add:

https://i.ss.lv/gallery/1/165/41075/hunting-fishing-weapon-civil-8214960.800.jpg

And here is the gun in my hand:

https://s31.postimg.org/97xslpk7f/image.jpg

It seems to be quite bigger than the S&W 640 which makes me question my ability to conceal it especially in the summer (with a T shirt).

What do you guys think:
a) Should I be able to conceal it?
b) Is it possibly better choice than the S&W 640 for concealed carry?

P.S. What frame size it it? K or L?

 

[MedWheeler]

It's a K-frame. It's obviously thicker than a five-shooter. As far as shooting goes, anything with a longer barrel, adjustable sights, and an extra round in capacity, is better. But the tradeoff, as you know, is that it will indeed be harder to conceal, at least, as easily as slipping in a pocket.

That being said, I've concealed some pretty big guns, including a service-sized 9mm (Ruger P95) and a six-shot, four-inch barreled revolver. I do it by placing the gun/holster combo between the belt and pants, a technique known as "inside-the-belt" carry. The belt smoothes out the profile of the rig somewhat; however, it still needs as long and loose a cover garment as does outside-the-waistband carry does.

It's a handsome piece. I'd certainly try to make it fit in my carry rotation..

 

[entropy]

686 is an L frame. The right holster(s; you never own just one...) will go a long way towards concealing an L-frame 3". Nice looking gun, BTW!

Safariland does make a Comp I speedloader for the L-frame, but not a pouchlike the one for the J-frame. I see it comes with 2 that look like Comp III models, they are for competition, they'd probably be hard to carry, and from what I understand, more likely to drop the rounds if just pocket carried.

If you go about in just T-shirts a lot, the 686 wouldn't be as good as the 640. Add a loose light shirt on top, and you should be good to go carrying it.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Few hours ago I bough that Smith & Wesson 640 (actually 640-1). It would be cool if someone could tell me what is the approximate date of manufacture by serial number.

Before buying it I also tried to check it's condition (checked few videos on youtube). To me it seemed fine, so I bough it. Anyway I though that I'll make a video and show you all the revolver so you could comment on it's condition - is it ok or should I take it to a gunsmith for some repairs. Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rFgPc8NV1g.
This is the first time ever I make such a video, especially in English, so I hope it is not too bad.

The only things I'm not sure are totally OK are:
1) Are chambers dirty or are the a bit work out?
2) Is barrel/cylinder gap ok? I measured it with trigger at rest and I could get a 0,01" (0,25mm) feeler gauge with cylinder pushed against recoil plate and 0,006" (0,15mm) with cylinder pushed against barrel.
3) When I release the cylinder and really lightly try to push it out there is a bit of resistance initially. It feels like there are two "clicks'. At the first "click" it pushes out of its alignment with barrel and allows minor side-to-side movement, and after that comes second "click" after which cylinder comes out of the frame freely - is that alright?
4) Timing. When I press the trigger really slowly the cylinder locks up pretty much at the same time the hammer drops. After that if I hold the trigger pressed and look from the tip of the barrel down to chambers they all are aligned almost perfectly (not really sure, there may be a tiny portion of the cylinder visible on one quarter side of the barrel).

I really hope that the gun is in good condition and I've made the right choice buying it. After you guys will verify that I'll start checking out everything I need for carrying it and training with it. Also I'll check what gun cleaning kits are available at local shops and will post images so you can verify that there is everything I need to properly take care of my gun.

As I don't have a special tool for checking how heavy is the trigger I improvised to get an approximate estimate. I took a screwdriver and laid it across the trigger (perpendicular to it). On one side of the screwdriver I placed some cheap fishing scales, which I used for pulling the trigger, while on the other end of the screwdriver I applied pressure with my other hand so that the screwdriver remains perpendicular to the trigger. This way, if I managed to hold the screwdriver perfectly perpendicular to the trigger I applied twice the force shown on scales (two force on both ends of the screwdriver). Positioning the screwdriver in the middle of the trigger the average from 3 pulls was ~4,2kgf (~9,5lb), thus trigger pull required total of ~8,4kgf of force (~18,5lb). I have to admit the trigger pull seems really heavy to me. Could it be that heavy because the gun hasn't been cleaned and lubricated for some while? Anyway I will definitely get that aftermarket Apex spring kit to lighten it at least a bit.

Thanks a lot!

 

[susieqz]

well done vid, rad. gun looks ok but i'm not familiar with dao. i prefer a hammer, so someone more knowledgible will have to help out.
do clean it well before shooting.
a bore light might help in checking condition. they are cheap n nice to have.
you had no view of the inside of the barrel so i can't tell how it is.
the gun looks dirty but lightly used. shine it up.
looks like a good buy.

 

[entropy]

The gun is in good, solid shape. Judging from the appearance and the endshake, (the amount you could push the cylinder forward to check the gap) I'd estimate about 1000-2000 rounds through it, with some of them being .357s.

That isn't bad; you're fine as is. If the endshake increases, there are shims available to take that up, and they are easy to install. The gun locks up good and solid, and looks true and straight. You would want to install the shims before the gap gets to .3mm (total, without pushing the cylinder forward.)

3) When I release the cylinder and really lightly try to push it out there is a bit of resistance initially. It feels like there are two "clicks'. At the first "click" it pushes out of its alignment with barrel and allows minor side-to-side movement, and after that comes second "click" after which cylinder comes out of the frame freely - is that alright?

Yes; the first click is the cylinder release pulling the pin back, the second is the clyinder clearing the cylinder stop.

hus trigger pull required total of ~8,4kgf of force (~18,5lb)

It's probably closer to 12 lbs.

The chambers definitely need a good cleaning, as does the barrel. Don't bother trying to get the black rings around the front of the cylinder off; they'll return the next time you fire it. If there's a down side to stainless steel revolvers, that's it.
Just get the loose stuff with gun cleaning solvent (Hoppe's #9 if you can get over there), trying to get the rings completely off will drive you crazy.

You got a good deal, they go for more than that here! Great video also, your English is very good.

My offer is still good.

 

[RadekSkylark]

You got a good deal, they go for more than that here! Great video also, your English is very good.

Good, I was kinda worried about whether I did a good job buying this revolver.

P.S. So from what I understand the B/C gap on my revolver is around 0,010" (I actually think that it is 0,011", because the 0,010" feeler gauge goes in pretty easily), and the end-shake is around 0,004-0,005". I was really worried that the B/C gap is too big - as I understand you think that it is just fine, correct?