Back off before the MOB turned on me. It’s what I would do. 1vs20 or more doesn’t sound good to me. Not good odds. But I wouldn’t hold anyone.
Bystander holds neighbor's murderer at gunpoint until police arrive
- Thread starter old lady new shooter
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You do realize that when you took him into custody you assumed liability for his safety? Another reason why it's not a good idea to hold someone.
I was thinking the same thing. If the killer attempted to calmly leave in his car and the neighbor shot and killed him or even shot and wounded him I think that neighbor would have been in for years of hassle in the courts even if he was cleared of all charges. The neighbor might or might not have spent a lot of time in court with the grand jury and a possible criminal trial racking up huge attorney fees only to face a civil suit with more time, money and attorney fees. Was there anyone in direct and immediate danger from the killer after the murder happened? The neighbor could win every case against him and still be in a huge financial hurt if he shot the killer.
I do hope/believe Arizona's conservative nature would have worked in the neighbors favor in this case.
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This is why I wouldn’t take anymore into custody. I’m not in that business anymore. And when I was I only took folks into custody who missed court and my bosses company bonded them out.
old lady new shooter
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theotherwaldo
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So the neighbor prevented the murderer from getting back in the murder weapon and leaving the scene of the crime - possibly, on his way to commit further crimes with this same weapon... .
I don't think that his actions, other than the warning shot, would be unlawful anywhere but in Georgia.
That does not make them anywhere near prudent,
Choctaw
Member
Exactly. It is much better to be a good witness than engage if at all possible.
These are indeed challenging scenarios.
What about the armed Good Samaritan (just walking his dog) who now witnesses a dirty guy with a gun imminently about to execute a driver who just experienced an unfortunate vehicle accident? Whew, good thing this second person arrived just in time to save the motorist!
That is why I have decided, in advance, that there is a tiny, tiny, tiny little circle of people in my life for whom I will draw a firearm out of the holster. Everyone else is on their own.
I am sure my neighbors are lovely people and we wave to each other and all. Yet do I really know them? Not exactly. Certainly not sufficiently to immerse myself in years of court plus expediture of countless dollars.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I still don't understand why they call people active in a situation "bystanders."
old lady new shooter
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Well, until they act they are bystanders.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
At which point, they are no longer bystanders. Contrary to the thread title and article, a "bystander" didn't hold the murderer at gunpoint until the police arrived after retrieving a gun and firing a warning shot into the ground. He had stopped being a bystander when he stopped just being an inactive witness to being an active participant in the outcome of the event.
LOL, by definition, a bystander is a non-participant.
JTHunter
Member
Instead of using a gun to "detain" the "vehicular assault person", a sharp knife into two (or more) tires might have served the same purpose.
citizenconn
Member
Unless you are the guy getting run over by the car. Then you would be grateful for a little help from a good samaritan.
I am reminded of the incident a few years ago of a woman being attacked by an elk and the male bystanders either running away or filming it instead of helping the woman. Thankfully a good samaritan finally came to her rescue.
https://k99.com/aggressive-elk-attacks-women-in-colorado-while-the-men-run-away/
Choctaw
Member
I said if at all possible. There are going to be many different possible scenarios in which someone should step in or be a good witness. And we aren't talking about wildlife.
After the fact?
citizenconn
Member
No, we are talking about people whose lives most people consider more precious than that of wildlife.
I wholeheartedly believe that everyone is entitles to their opinion, but personally I am going to help people whenever I can. That is the way I was raised. Compassion, empathy and solicitude are some of the prevailing traits that separate us from wildlife. Respectfully.
citizenconn
Member
Yeah, if it didn't kill you.
Detaining a suspect at gunpoint after he has killed someone helps no one.
When we discuss the justification for deadly force or the threat thereof, we speak of an imminent threat. "Imminent" means is happening or is about to happen, not did happen or may happen.
Choctaw
Member
Just be sure you are fully aware of what the actual situation is. I've been a Texas law enforcement officer since 1987 so I do know a little about violent offenders and deadly situations. I'm not perfect and I have an example of a mistake I made. Sometime around 1995, I was patrolling in South Dallas on deep nights and observed a male beating a female. I pulled over to arrest him and it was then I realized she was about 6'3", built like a tank and was actually whipping him all over the sidewalk. I was just enough of a distraction for him to break away and flee (there went my victim, never to be seen again) and then she turned her attention on me. I sprayed her with pepper spray and finally had to use my ASP to subdue her. I won the fight but it really did hurt. Even with my training, education and experience, had I not had less than lethal means at my disposal I would probably had to use deadly force on this woman. Be sure of what you are walking into.
mljdeckard
Member
It's just too risky, too many unknowns, too many things that can happen in that time in between. If the whole point is to AVOID danger, you are INVITING danger by holding someone at gunpoint, and that danger increases with time. It would be the longest minute of your life. Or five. Or twenty. You get tired. The detainee gets desperate. Who else knows who else might decide to get involved. You have to hold them, ensure they aren't a threat to you, and also be aware of other threats that may emerge.
It's just bad math.
It's just bad math.
bdickens
Member
Except that in this case it helped with law enforcement's speedy apprehension of the "suspect."
Be mindful responding officers will not cheerfully greet the Good Samaritan gunowner with big smiles.
Very stern men and women will race-up with their guns drawn. The gunowner will likely be pushed down.
The gunowner will almost certainly be quickly and roughly handcuffed until the events can be sorted.
I simply do not have sufficiently close relationships with my neighbors to risk bad injury or getting shot.
Very stern men and women will race-up with their guns drawn. The gunowner will likely be pushed down.
The gunowner will almost certainly be quickly and roughly handcuffed until the events can be sorted.
I simply do not have sufficiently close relationships with my neighbors to risk bad injury or getting shot.
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