CA: Ammo and Thumbprints

Status
Not open for further replies.

45Hoop

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
40
Location
Peoples Republic of California
California Senate Votes to Require Thumbprint to Buy Bullets

Susan Jones, CNSNews.com
Wednesday, May 26, 2004

The California Senate has passed a bill that would require ammunition buyers to provide a thumb print when the purchase is made. But a pro-Second Amendment group is condemning what it calls "an insidious invasion of privacy."

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) says that keeping records on ammunition sales has proven ineffective in fighting crime. "Requiring a thumbprint moves this idea into the realm of the ludicrous," said CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron.

"It's a waste of time and taxpayers' money, but more importantly, this constitutes a serious privacy issue. If this measure dealt with something other than a gun control issue, the ACLU would be screaming about it," Waldron added.

He said if the measure becomes state law, it would be yet another example of how California lawmakers treat honest gun owners like criminals.

"What comes next?" Waldron asked. "Will citizens be required to submit a fingerprint to buy a car? Will the next dumb idea force gun owners to submit their medical records before they can legally buy firearms and ammunition?"

Senate Bill 1152 passed the California Senate last week by a vote of 22-16 and now has been sent to the Assembly.

The bill requires that "all vendors of ammunition maintain specified information" on ammunition buyers, including: (1) the date of the transaction; (2) the name, address, and date of birth of the buyer; (3) the buyer's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued; (4) the brand, type, and amount of ammunition bought or transferred; (5) the buyer's signature; (6) the name of the salesperson who processed the transaction; and (7) "the vendor shall also at the time of purchase or transfer obtain the right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee."

The information would have to be recorded on a special form provided by the State Department of Justice.

California law already makes it a crime for people who are prohibited from possessing firearms to possess ammunition. And it is a misdemeanor for any person to sell ammunition to anyone under the age of 18.

The Senate bill says dealers would have to retain records on ammunition sales for at least two years. Those records, CCRKBA said, might be used as evidence in cases where people who are barred from owning guns and ammunition are charged with illegally buying them.

"If this measure is enacted, it might result in the creation of a black market for ammunition," said Waldron. "It could also open the way for retailers to be prosecuted for a technical violation if they don't get a readable fingerprint. How many gun dealers know the proper way to roll a thumbprint? Is anybody in Sacramento thinking about any of this?" he asked.

CCRKBA said gun rights groups fought similar proposals 10 years ago because they accomplished nothing. "It would appear that some California lawmakers are no smarter now than they were then," Waldron said.

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms says it is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States.

Copyright CNSNews.com

Boy do we need some help out here!
 
It looks to me like the anti gun California Senate wants to make the burden of selling ammunition so high, that retail businesses will just decide not to sell ammunition. Then the Senators get a defacto ammo ban without ever having to pass such a measure or law. I pity the gun owners in California.

What will be interesting to see is how many California gun owners take the position: "Well, if you don't have anything to hide, what's the big deal about being fingerprinted and registered for buying ammunition?".

I wonder how the costs will go up? The retailers are not going to go through the time and effort to keep books and fingerprints without being compensated for it. Either they will quit selling, or they will jack up the price to cover their own internal time and costs.

The black market will indeed move in to at least some degree. Then the cops will have to spend more time and effort pursuing those black marketers. What do you bet the next bill is to add a state tax on ammo to cover the costs of keeping the records and checking up on retail outlets who continue to sell, despite the hassle?
 
All I've got to say is: :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :banghead:

Friggin' idiots!!!!!!!

For those patriots still in California that are gonna stay and fight, you've got what's called SAND!!!!! Good luck to Mr. March and the rest of you guys!!!
 
This is INSANE! Where is our side in this debate? How can any American actually believe that this recordkeeping scheme and fingerprinting is NOT a violation of the Constitution?

This will result in an ammo ban and will probably drive what remaining gun businesses out. Defacto ban of firearms.

Next will be a law making it a felony to buy ammo online.

Like Ayn Rand said, if you need criminals, just pass so many laws that committing a crime will be normal.
 
Yes, it's that bad.

Sigh.

This may be the bill where we find out what Arnold's really made of. SB1733 can be vetoed on other grounds than pure RKBA (it's the Dems trying to shut down political activity) and SB1140 has been weakened and may not survive the Assembly.

Here's a quick synopsis of the top three bad bills in play:

------------------------

So far, our biggest win is 2858, special taxes on guns and ammo "to reimburse victims of violence". Completely dead (bill was turned into something completely non-gun related and otherwise harmless).

The nasty stuff still in play:

SB1140 - a "safe storage" bill that ratchets up the penalties if your kid gets ahold of both guns and ammo at the same time behind the same storage unit. Into felony levels. The only good news: use of a locking storage device (either a true safe, "bedside quick-access safe" or cable lock) means you're legal no matter what...this was a result of myself, Sam Parades and others pointing out that they were about to ban use of "bedside safes" in earlier versions. So about the only real change is a bump from misdemeanor to potential felony for true negligent storage and misuse. The legislature, particularly the Assembly, are reluctant to create new felonies right now (part of the prison scandal fallout). Senator Scott's bill.

Status: it could show up on the Senate floor at any moment.

Current text:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_1101-1150/sb_1140_bill_20040520_amended_sen.html

SB1733 - a gun show ban specific to one venue - the "Cow Palace" at the southern border of San Francisco. As the city/county doesn't own it (state facility), they're asking their pet legislator Jackie Speier to do a gun show ban at the state level. State agricultural district reps say they make about $100,000 a year off of gun shows; California DOJ is on record saying that increased law enforcement and reform legislation of 2000 have basically eliminated any criminal activity at gun shows that used to happen on a small scale. So this is pure political posturing in a fashion that will cost the state money.

Note: "hardcore politics" happens at CA gun shows, including Davis recall
petitions last year, RKBA constitutional initiatives this year, etc...giving Arnold strong incentive to do a veto.

Status: Senate passed it (barely) - it's in the Assembly but "held at desk"
pending committee assignments.

Current text:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_1701-1750/sb_1733_bill_20040401_amended_sen.html

SB1152 - The main "push" is coming from the city and county of Los Angeles, which claims their county's local version has solved at least some crimes. We're trying to get their actual data but with the Public Records Act a toothless mess, it's not looking good. I'm going to see if Scott's staff have anything I can start a fresh search on. It's another Scott bill.

Status: Senate passed it, at the Assembly "held at desk" pending committee assignments.

You can see the city's main arguments in the Senate floor analysis:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_1151-1200/sb_1152_cfa_20040510_134042_sen_floor.html

Current text:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_1151-1200/sb_1152_bill_20040428_amended_sen.html

The bad news: 1152 in particular appears to be unstoppable, barring of course Arnold's veto. If it passes, the paperwork burden on the gun dealers will be unbelievable and will crush some out of existence.
 
Geez,

I'm surprised they didn't add a line in there about having to go through a nics check also....

Opps, sorry, giving them ideas :(.

M.
 
Jim- Do any of those bills include the 10% tax on ammo and the 5% tax on handguns?

What about a run to NV or AZ to fill up the pickup truck? Out of state purchases of ammo for personal use (a group buy) are not prohibited, are they?

Arnold had better veto this stuff if it gets that far.
 
Jim,

Wasn't 1152 passed to Com. Public Safety last Monday? Can La Suer do anything to make it disappear?

Poor guy (La Suer); can't imagine anything much worse than to hang-out on a committee with Dymally, Goldberg and Leno... :barf:

Sawdust
 
This isn't a big deal. You guys panic over nothing. The text is seems specific to wanting the right thumbprint. So simply cut off your right thumb. Keep it on ice, you might be able to sell it on Ebay and get enough money from the sale to fill your gas tank and drive out of that hell hole. I'd get right on this if this bill is chaptered, the value of thumbs on Ebay will drop rapidly as the supply increases and hitchhiking without a right thumb could be difficult.
 
This isn't a big deal. You guys panic over nothing

Au contraire. It IS a big deal. It is more of the never ending blissninny incrementalism that is slowly and steadily confiscating our liberties. Stuff like this needs to be confronted and defeated wherever it arises.
 
Very interesting.

Questions:

Will the system be able to compare finger prints?
Will your name be entered also/
Can the system be defeated with NuSkin or something like it?

If at some future time the system is "smart" enough to do one and two could you be denied a purchase if you cut your thumb and the machine gets an error on the match.

How will they get all the terrorists prints in advance so the system can actually catch a real BG. Oh forgot...Al hommie don't play that...


S-

Or, is the real reason behind this is it helps them justify a nickle per round tax on ammo some time in the future.....?
 
it sucks but

it will mean more folks will get into reloading and handloading,which will increase the number of ammo holders out there they have no idea of.
good biz for AZ/NV/OR ammo guys.
I've gotten good deals for ammo in NV before
 
If this passes, the gun grabbers will com up with some new terms.

They'll start talking about closing the reloading loophole and the out of state purchase of ammo loophole.
 
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :Argh!
What I don't understand is how our legislature can keep wasting our money this way. The Ammo tax has been proposed in one form or another what, 4 times this session? Once a bill is dead, that should be it.
And people wonder why the state is broke....
Gods,I hate this place.....:barf:
 
Does this effect mail-order purchases from out-of-state?

I'm sure it will make it impossible for non-People's Republic of California ammunition suppliers to do business in the P.R.C.

The only surprise is that this legislative abomination isn't being coupled with a special tax.
 
The only surprise is that this legislative abomination isn't being coupled with a special tax.


Incrementalism, my dear Watson. Incrementalism. Don't ask for the whole cookie when you know there is a good chance that you won't get it. Just eat the cream out of the middle and hand the rest back to the owner, asking them to be thankful that you let them have the major part of the cookie.
 
I love that allegory, USAFNoDAk. It's the well-used principle of reversing facts, not unlike the ration hoax in 1984, if you're familiar with that. If not, it's when they first say that the chocolate ration per week has been reduced to 20 grammes, but then they say it's been increased to 20 grammes, making it seem like they did the people a favour.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top