Cali Law: PPT from Cali to Individual in another state through FFL

[avardcurt]

Ok, I have searched till my eyes are dry and red and I cannot find anything that pertains to an individual selling a handgun to another individual in another state (Oklahoma in this case) and shipping the handgun to an FFL in Oklahoma for the Transfer.

If this has been discussed herein before, I can't find it in the archives. If it hasn't, can someone a whole lot brighter than me tell me what the Law in California says about this? I find all sorts of stuff on PPT WITHIN Cali, but nothing pertaining to an individual selling to another in another state and shipping it to an FFL Dealer for transfer.

And if there is a Law that covers this, please advise of the Penal Code so I can reference it to my FFL and the individual in Cali that wants to sell me this gun in Oklahoma. Thanks in advance.

 

[natman]

I assume that PPT stands for person-to-person transfer.

Verify that the gun is going to be shipped to a genune FFL. https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck

Pack and ship the gun. You have two options - ship yourself via UPS overnight or go to a local FFL who can use the USPS (you can't with a handgun). It may be cheaper to pay FFL fees than to use overnight shipping. Ship only to the FFL's address.

There may be one other snag; if the gun has magazines of more than ten rounds you're not supposed to sell the magazines. I guess they think you should have to own them forever. Logically, you would think that would mean no sales within CA, but what has logic got to do with gun laws:

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php

I'd recommend that you get confirmation at http://www.calguns.net/

They specialize in CA law.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I am especially not your lawyer, take all legal advice on the internet with a grain of salt, including mine. Contact the ATF / your state DOJ directly and get their advice in writing. Then follow it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It would only make sense that you can't find anything because a PPT would be between two people in the same state...as a matter of fact, they would have to be in the same store. Once you ship a handgun, it must be entered into an FFL's book and he then has to transfer it to the buyer.

There is no Penal Code as shipping a handgun across state lines falls under Federal law.

It isn't clear to me what you are looking for.
1. The seller in CA needs to send it to your FFL in OK who will them transfer it to you when you complete the paperwork.
2. Your FFL need not accept a shipment from a private party and can insist that the seller ship it through an FFL in CA
3. The cost of shipping and FFL fees are negotiable between the two parties as to who will cover them...usually it is the buyer

 

[avardcurt]

It would only make sense that you can't find anything because a PPT would be between two people in the same state...as a matter of fact, they would have to be in the same store. Once you ship a handgun, it must be entered into an FFL's book and he then has to transfer it to the buyer.

There is no Penal Code as shipping a handgun across state lines falls under Federal law.

It isn't clear to me what you are looking for.
1. The seller in CA needs to send it to your FFL in OK who will them transfer it to you when you complete the paperwork.
2. Your FFL need not accept a shipment from a private party and can insist that the seller ship it through an FFL in CA
3. The cost of shipping and FFL fees are negotiable between the two parties as to who will cover them...usually it is the buyer

9mmepiphany,
I have a pistol (Ruger MKII .22) I'm wanting to purchase from an individual that lives in California. I live in Oklahoma. My FFL guy says it's against the law for him to receive said pistol from the individual in California. The price of the pistol and the shipping fees have been agreed upon by myself and the individual in California. I'm trying to find proof that there is not a law in the California Penal Code that prevents an individual from selling a pistol to another person outside the state of California, and that it is legal for the FFL in the other state (no state law that prohibits this in Oklahoma) to receive this pistol and transfer it to me for his set transfer fee. It seems that California Law has most of the FFL Dealers here in Oklahoma scared to death as I have spoken with several and all say they can't do it cause it's against the law, but no one can quote the law that this is supposed to violate. My FFL guy says that if I can prove that he's not in trouble for receiving this pistol from an INDIVIDUAL from California, he'll do it. So I'm trying to find what the law in California is for INDIVIDUAL's in California is for selling a pistol (no HC magazines involved) to me here in Oklahoma and shipping it to my FFL for transfer?

 

[avardcurt]

Ok, maybe I have found it through the calguns site.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate
In reviewing this, it would appear that since a transfer by an individual resident of California, of a pistol (or rifle, or shotgun) to, through an FFL in the other state in which the purchaser resides (Oklahoma in this case, with no state law here preventing purchase or transfer), a resident of Oklahoma (in this case), and is not a violation of Federal Law under US Code,

18 USC 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

That my FFL can legally transfer this pistol to me from the California resident by the Cali resident shipping said pistol to my FFL and I complete the 4473 Form.

Or did I get off of the bunny trail somewhere up the road? This has driven me batty trying to research this. You guys are helping me out a lot and I really appreciate it. My only thought of this is where did this country get so far from "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed"?:banghead:

 

[natman]

They write laws to say what you can't do. That makes it hard to figure out what you can do, especially if there is no law addressing it. You're being asked to prove that a certain law doesn't exist, and that's a tough row to hoe.

AFAIK, there is no law prohibiting an individual from CA from selling a pistol out of state, as long as he sends it to an FFL in the buyer's state. I can quote FEDERAL law that says it's OK, but I can't cite CA law that says it isn't.

As a practical matter, I would suggest that you research having the pistol shipped from a CA FFL. Depending on what the FFL charges to ship a gun out, it might even be cheaper than UPS Overnight and it would make your FFL happy.

 

[danez71]

If I understand the details right.... this may be of some use.


The following makes no distinction as to if buyer is outside of CA or not and it says a CA seller has to use a CA FFL dealer in the sale of a firearm for private party transfer (making them not so private).


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9

14.I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

a.For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
b.For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.
(PC section 12072(d))

 

[EOD Guy]

There is no California law preventing the shipment by an individual to an out of state FFL. No one can show you that in writing since it's impossible to prove a negative.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Why is the Oklahoma FFL concerned AT ALL about California law?!? California CANOT reach into Oklahoma and enforce their insane laws upon an Oklahoma dealer. The dealer is transferring the gun to an Oklahoma resident. The ONLY laws the Oklahoma dealer needs to be concerned with is Federal and Oklahoma law. It's really none of the dealer's concern if ANY California law is applicable or complied with.

That said, there is no California law the prevents a California resident from shipping a gun to an FFL anywhere. This is NOT a private party transfer. It is a transfer to an FFL, which must be done to comply with Federal law because the private parties involved are residents of different states.

 

[9mmepiphany]

OK it makes sense, your question, now. The PPT in your OP did add to the confusion, this transaction has nothing to do with a Private Party Transfer

Your FFL is confused about CA Law. The only effect that CA law has on handgun sales is when the gun is being imported, not exported. CA law has no effect or even jurisdiction over your FFL transaction in another state...only over transaction where the end user is in CA.

I just sent a handgun to the FFL of a forum member in NC last week. His FFL was willing to e-mail me a copy of his FFL to prove that he was indeed a licensed FFL. The only reason I utilized a CA FFL for the transaction was to take advantage of the less expensive shipping available (USPS Flat rate box vs. UPS Overnight)

 

[Frank Ettin]

9mmepiphany has nailed it.

[1] California law is irrelevant to the transfer of a handgun by a California resident to someone who is a resident of another State. The transfer will be done in the transferee's State of residence (see [2], below), and California law doesn't apply there.

[2] Federal law requires that the transfer be done by an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. Since the transfer will actually take place in the transferee's State of residence, the laws of that State will also apply.

[3] Common procedure is for the transferor to ship, or cause to be shipped, the handgun to the FFL with whom the transferee has arranged to receive the gun and perform the transfer.

[4] Federal law does not prohibit an FFL from receiving a gun for transfer directly from a private party. Some FFLs will not do so for their own business reasons. That is their prerogative.

[5] If a transfer FFL will not receive a gun for transfer from a private party, either the transferee needs to find another FFL; or the transferor needs to arrange to have the gun shipped by an FFL to the transfer FFL.

[6] If the transferor can ship the gun directly to the transfer FFL, the transferor should confirm that the transfer FFL's license is current. I believe that there is a way to do this on-line through ATF. The transfer FFL will often require that the transferor include some ID with the gun, usually a copy of the transferor's driver's license. These sorts of details need to be worked out ahead of time. (And if the gun will be shipped by an FFL, he knows how to handle things.)

[7] Costs all need to be worked out among the parties ahead of time and should be documented.

 

[mgkdrgn]

9mmepiphany,
I have a pistol (Ruger MKII .22) I'm wanting to purchase from an individual that lives in California. I live in Oklahoma. My FFL guy says it's against the law for him to receive said pistol from the individual in California. The price of the pistol and the shipping fees have been agreed upon by myself and the individual in California. I'm trying to find proof that there is not a law in the California Penal Code that prevents an individual from selling a pistol to another person outside the state of California, and that it is legal for the FFL in the other state (no state law that prohibits this in Oklahoma) to receive this pistol and transfer it to me for his set transfer fee. It seems that California Law has most of the FFL Dealers here in Oklahoma scared to death as I have spoken with several and all say they can't do it cause it's against the law, but no one can quote the law that this is supposed to violate. My FFL guy says that if I can prove that he's not in trouble for receiving this pistol from an INDIVIDUAL from California, he'll do it. So I'm trying to find what the law in California is for INDIVIDUAL's in California is for selling a pistol (no HC magazines involved) to me here in Oklahoma and shipping it to my FFL for transfer?

You can't prove a negative.

Find another FFL with his head screwed on straight ... there are plenty of them.

For gawds sake, the state of Calif would be THRILLED to frackin death if ALL of the handguns in their state were sold to someone in another state.

 

[Bubbles]

Find another FFL with his head screwed on straight ... there are plenty of them.

http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html - lists are in MS Excel format, start calling your local dealers and find one with a clue.

My guess is that the FFL the OP found either doesn't want to do transfers, doesn't want to accept them from non-FFL's, or doesn't have a clue about CA's laws. Or all three.

 

[avardcurt]

Thank you all, it is very confusing, and yes indeed, it is proving a negative. DANEZ71, as was stated in my awakening to what California law was and wasn't, and was agreed upon after, this issue doesn't have anything to do with a Person to Person Transfer (PPT) which is expressively explained IN Cali law. A PPT is between two individuals IN California, and in fact, both Cali Residents. It's so convoluted though, that it's easy to see the issue it appears to make, that a PPT covers ALL individuals in the Country and the World. That's just not the case.

As for the others that have offered their information, thank you also, very much. I have printed off the information needed to explain this to my local FFL, to whom I would like to have the transfer done with, however, I am going to use the list that Bubbles offered the link for and find one that understands what it is that I'm wanting to do.

The one thing that I have learned through this deal also, is that there have been more laws put in the way of gun owners across the country, and with patchwork of them increasing more every day, it is really scary as to how close we all are in losing our Second Amendment Right, and the very real possibility of the confiscation of our guns by a tyrannical government that has grown to large to stop.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The one thing that I have learned through this deal also, is that there have been more laws put in the way of gun owners across the country, and with patchwork of them increasing more every day, it is really scary as to how close we all are in losing our Second Amendment Right, and the very real possibility of the confiscation of our guns by a tyrannical government that has grown to large to stop.

It's not that bad. It's only "reasonable regulation." Just ask them. That's why it bothers me when pro-gun people support mandatory training and permitting for carrying... if you let the government go they will "reasonably regulate" 2A rights out of existence with pro-gun people rocking in their rocking chairs wondering how it happened.

Make it illegal to commit a crime with a gun, but leave the gun itself and possession thereof alone.