Caliber Wars: then and now

[dr0]

Back in the stone age of the 1980s we had the caliber wars. The 9mm then (as now) was the go to cartridge for a lot of police organizations moving away from revolvers. There were problems and criticisms of it being somewhat ineffective in some scenarios.

There was much love for the 9mm too, especially in double-stack pistols with large capacity. Even the era's compacts could chamber 10+1, Full size pistols with 13, 14, 15 and 16 round magazines were a big step up from 'six for sure'.

There were strong .45 caliber partisans, countering all this And we had a lot of innovation in calibers to bridge the 9mm and 45 divide.

We had the 10mm invented to "fix" the shortcomings of the 9mm and then the .40 S&W designed to "fix" the problems of the 10mm. Somewhere along the way the .357 Sig was invented to improve the .40 S&W. The military changed from .45 to 9mm, Beretta in, 1911 out.

I ended up being on the .45 side of the divide, as much because of my love of the 1911 platform as for any concern for the 9mm's ineffectiveness. Jeff Cooper's writing probably helped sway me to the .45 / 1911 (and later 10mm / 1911) team. (Anybody remember "crunch-n-ticker" as a derogatory phrase? Another sort of obsolete concern in this days of DAO, striker fired, LEO triggers and an almost impossible to keep-track of number of variations.)

Amazingly that was more than 30 years ago! Has much changed?

Of course I've seen the trend towards ever-smaller pistols for concealed carry has created a whole category of micro-9mms that are sized like older .380s. That's pushed the 9mm back to the front.

And even in full size and compact pistols, the 9mm seems to have overcome a lot of doubters, and has much improved PR since the height of the original caliber wars.

SIG chambers many of their guns in the buyer's choice of 9mm, 40mm and .357 SIG. The 9mm seems to be most people's choice. The .357 SIG seems still the odd-man-out, appreciated theoretically by many, but used by few.

The .40 seems to have peaked and is again receding behind the resurgent popularity of the 9mm. The 10mm, the cartridge too strong to die, has quietly grown a cult following, and is sort of firmly established as a the most powerful alternative chambering for full size semi-autos.

The .45 still has it's fans, but they seem to be fewer and quieter than in the past.

In looking at buying a new gun I find myself thinking: maybe I should get the 9mm? Or the 40? In particular I've been looking at the HK USP Compact series (itself already 25 years old, amazing!).

The .45 version is only marginally larger, but I still wonder if I should go with one of the smaller calibers, gaining capacity and controllablity. (I've never really struggled with the .45 or the 10mm, but I am sure I can shoot 9's faster with accuracy - which is why a lot of the competitive shooters use .38 Super as I understand it).

I feel like I might be among the last of the old school ".45 guys" giving in.

Let's hear from other 'caliber warriors' old school or new. Have you preferences changed? if you have many or all of the calibers mentioned in this post do you find yourself gravitating towards one? Is a different one than you favored 10 years ago? 20 years ago?

When looking for a full sized or mildly compact sized pistol do you still favor the tried and true .45, or are you a 9mm guy? Or, do you still like the split-the-difference strengths of the .40.

Game on!

 

[badkarmamib]

I started with 9MM when I turned 21. I went through quite a few pistols after that, and my main requirement was that it had to be a 9. Due to hunting regs, requiring 350 ft-lbs for hunting (and, I would assume, finishing), I began to explore .40 S&W. Then came the banics, and 9MM was gone, .40 was everywhere, and I felt fortunate that I had a .40. I have not been without a .40 since. Now I reload, and can tailor my loads to what I like, so on-the-shelf availability is not a concern for me anymore. I have never liked the ergonomics and balance of revolvers. Pocket .380's are not pleasant enough to shoot to offset the slightly smaller size compared to my XD-S in .40. I still like 1911's, and have had one or two 9's since my "conversion", but, for whatever reason, the .40S&W is my favorite pistol caliber.

 

[Eagle103]

I've been primarily a 9mm guy since the early 90's and a new Ruger P85. I've stuck with it for several reasons:
1. It's pleasant and easy to shoot
2. It's cheap to shoot
3. It's readily available and cheap enough to stockpile just in case it isn't
4. It's reasonably effective in the slim to none chance I ever have to shoot someone with it. If I ever thought that was a distinct possibility or if I wanted to go after big game I'd skip the others and go straight up to a 10mm.

 

[Shed]

I'm a big proponent of people getting whatever caliber they want; as long as they have something that's better than nothing. I tend to follow the mindset that it's the number of holes that matter over the size of the holes, so if someone can hit with a 9mm better and faster than a .45 , I usually suggest going with 9mm (or vice versa). I even know someone who carries .22LR because she can't handle the recoil of anything else. While her husband gives her grief about it, and while she probably could step up to another caliber with more practice, I told her to use whatever is comfortable to her. I'm not the kind of guy who likes to tell people what to do in general.

All that said, I actually prefer .357 Magnum as a defensive cartridge 1) because I can handle it and it has excellent ballistics 2) because I think it's a ton of fun to shoot and 3) I like to have a defensive cartridge that can handle people and wildlife, as I live in the middle of nowhere (I know I'm cheating a bit here by going with a revolver, not a pistol cartridge, unless you have the $ to blow on a Coonan).

I also like 9mm and .45acp too because, well , guns are fun, and both have proven themselves to be good defensive calibers.

 

[I6turbo]

Centerfire handgun wise, for many years I enjoyed shooting .357 Magnums from my 1982 model 686 and to a slightly lesser extent, my 1981 model Trooper Mk III. There's something about the .357 that really appeals to me. But, I was mostly a rifle and shotgun guy for decades -- never much of a pistol shooter until about 3 years ago. I also had a Beretta 92 SB since 1984 but never really took it out much because I enjoyed the above-mentioned revolvers much more.

A couple years ago I bought a CZ 85 Combat and suddenly I really liked handguns. Subsequent acquisitions included a Kimber 1911 (bought a nice used one from a friend) along with a few more 9mm CZs. I think the 9mm is a sweet round when you have a gun that you like, and likewise with .45 ACP. After owning the Kimber for a year or so I bought a CZ 97 B. A couple months later I'd completely lost interest in the Kimber and sold it. Soon thereafter I sold the 92 SB because it wasn't getting out of the safe either, and I wanted an excuse/justification for buying a couple more CZs that I didn't need. The 97 B always goes to the range along with some of the 9mms. If I had to choose only one semi-auto handgun round I guess I'd go 9mm because of the number of appealing guns chambered for it, but I would definitely miss the 97 B and therefore the 45 ACP round.

 

[Robert101]

I've been shooting some time now. My carry caliber is a 40 S&W due to size and weight compromises. My preferred carry is the 45 Automatic in a 1911 but it is to heavy for all day in an inside waistband holster. No caliber war with me only convenience at play. Both are adequate for my needs. Then of course I have a 10MM in the safe for the fun days.

 

[pblanc]

I really don't think anything much has changed for me. I did sort of buy into the .40 S&W hype when that caliber hit the market, but since I bought my first 40 caliber I have come to enjoy shooting it quite a bit, and my accuracy with it has improved dramatically. Sure, 9mm is a little cheaper but the price of .40 S&W ammo has come down considerably to the point where the cost difference is not that great, unless you are shooting thousands and thousands of rounds a year, and don't reload.

I shoot .22 lr, 9 mm Luger, .40 S&W, 357 SIG, and .45 ACP and enjoy them all. In terms of pure fun of shooting, I would rank .45 ACP highest. In truth, after shooting .40 S&W or .45 ACP, 9 mm Luger seems, how shall I put it, a bit bland.

As a general rule, in full-size pistols for home defense or a "truck gun" I tend to favor .45 ACP, although I do have a Beretta 92FS. In mid-size carry pistols I tend to favor .40 S&W, although I do have a SIG P320 9mm compact. In a sub-compact size pistol due to magazine capacity and the greater perceived recoil with smaller, lighter handguns, I favor 9 mm Luger.

I might possibly be slightly quicker on follow-up shots with 9 mm, but for whatever reason, my first shot accuracy seems consistently better with either .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

 

[dr0]

So many excellent replies. Thanks! One trend I see in the responses is that gun choice influences caliber choice a lot. If you find a gun that shoots a round well, you are going to like that round. Interesting to see that quite a few people have gone through changes over time in their favorite caliber too.

Keep 'em coming!

 

[EddieG54]

My first carry pistol was a Bersa 9mm. Later picked up a Shield 40 Cal. From there went to RIA 45cal.
Thinking about an LCP 380 now. Strange thing is I still have all of them. They all fit for my carry needs.

 

[TomJ]

When I got back into shooting a few years back and Illinois passed concealed carry, I had my mind set on a 45 or 40. What I've leaned over time is that I shoot my 9's better. From 21 feet and shooting somewhat rapidly, maybe a shot or more per second, I'll punch out the 9 ring on a B29 target. With my 45's, 40's, 357 sigs and 10mm's the groups get larger and the time for an accurate second shot is longer. As I'm typing this I realize I'm probably stating the obvious. What I carry depends on what I'm doing that day. If I'm spending the day in my office, which is on the small side, I'll carry my 357sig or a 45 as I'm confident in my accuracy with those calibers from 10 to 15 feet. We've had too many experiences with druggies in the building, and I'm more confident with a larger caliber when dealing with them. Most other times I'm carrying a 9, as I'm comfortable with it as a caliber and because of how much better I shoot them.

 

[Mike J]

I don't know that I have a favorite caliber. My only .45 is in a 1911. I own a couple of .40's & a subcompact 9mm. If I am going to carry a full sized or compact pistol I like a .40 or .45. If it is a subcompact I tend to go 9mm. I honestly believe with proper shot placement any of them can work but I like .40 & .45 a little better. 99% of the time if I am carrying a gun it is an inexpensive 9mm subcompact though. This is just due to ease of carry and the fact I believe 9mm is more controllable in a smaller pistol.

 

[Jimster]

I'm a die hard .45acp 1911 guy. It makes me feel good to have it with me.

 

[MedWheeler]

I was in law enforcement during the transition from .38 caliber wheelguns to 9mm autoloaders. My first issued "crunchenticker" was a Ruger P-85. I had also recently acquired a S&W 659. I wasn't trained in the use of the autoloader; just shot it well enough to qualify, and on the hip the Ruger went. I never shot them as well as I shot the revolvers.

Years after leaving the profession, I "returned to the gun scene." In shopping for a new CC pistol to replace a PPK/S I'd had back then but had sold, I ended up with a Bersa Thunder in 380. I gravitated toward the 9mm quickly when I came across a PF9 in 2010.

But lately, I've been drawn back to the nice heft and solidity of the "steel wheel", which brings me back to the .38 Special. I don't know if it's nostalgia, appreciation for the craftsmanship, or what, but it's not specifically just the round.

So, in the "wondernine vs great38" debate, it's about, to me at least, the gun, and not the caliber.

 

[JO JO]

Wheel guns are great makes me think American Muscle "horse power "
but I am a forty fanboy mostly due to it is what I carried and trained with for a decade

 

[ArchAngelCD]

After reading the OP I couldn't help but wonder what Col. Cooper would think of today's 1911 in 9mm?

 

[jjones45]

When I was ready to buy my first handgun at 21 years of age it seemed everybody I talked to at the time from gun owners to salesman said you just couldn't go wrong with a 40 caliber. After a lot of research I kind of agreed and bought my first 40 s&w, then another. Then I discovered the 357 sig cartridge and believed in all the benefits it offered over the others so I bought a couple of those and my 40's were also able to chamber it as well with just a barrel swap, but the price and general availability of the round kind of slowly but surely nudged me back to 40. Then a buddy had a Springfield 1911 A1 he wanted to sell to fund a polymer pistol purchase so I jumped on that for $375. I was instantly hooked on the 45 acp and the 1911 platform. The capacity was my only concern for the 1911 platform so I journeyed out to other 45 acp platforms and still carry those to this day (Hk usp, glock 30). Shortly after my 45 acp affection I ran into a couple of good "like new" used 9mm's for an excellent price (92FS, Browning). My accuracy and speed with the beretta was noticeably better than most my other guns at the time, plus the 92fs had sort of a cult following from all the police, military, and movies. While the 9mm was a little more accurate for me and quicker to shoot effectively I just gave in to the power factor theory and gradually went back to 40 and 45. A couple of 40's here, a couple of 45's there, then about 3 years ago I bought a 9mm Cz 75B from all the word of mouth advertising and it seemed to almost have a cult like following like the 1911, glock, and beretta. I was instantly in love with the platform and 9mm cartridge again lol. So I was convinced that now the 9mm was more effective from modern bullet technology and bought more 9's. Nowadays I realize I'm confident with any caliber 9mm and up with at least 6-8 rounds. I've learned to appreciate revolvers but only use those for home defense as I don't like carrying those for some reason. I think because I was bred on semi autos maybe. I find myself back to carrying 45's a majority of the time anymore. 45 acp is my favorite cartridge and the Cz 75 is my favorite platform. The Cz 97 is just too big to conceal. I wish Cz would make a p07, p09, or phantom size pistol in 45 acp so I would have the perfect carry 45 for me. Until then my glock 30S does just fine.

 

[Az-quailhunter]

I have always had a 9mm, a .45, and a .38 Super over the years. My favorite is the Super. I have carried all in full size and commander
formats. To me, there is no caliber wars....everyone gets everything he wants. They all work, they all have a job to do for serious work,
and fun work, such as hunting, or target shooting. I enjoy all disciplines, and to each his own. Its ok to have favorites...that's what the sport is all about.

 

[huntsman]

The .40 seems to have peaked and is again receding behind the resurgent popularity of the 9mm.

With the help of ammo companies, if .40 or .45 fmj was priced like 9mm I'll bet the numbers would be closer. For some recoil may be a factor in choice but I bet a lot more casual gun owners vote their wallet more than anything.

 

[420Stainless]

PM45 is my compact pistol of choice. Don't even own a nine, although a version of the P30SK and FNS 9C both appeal to me (I'm the odd sort that likes thumb safeties) - so I may yet get one. Both are bigger than the PM45 though, but with double or more capacity.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I grew up in a family surrounded by .45s. As a young man, I bought into the hype. About the time I headed off on my own and went to college, I started doing research. I read Fackler and others. As I started getting into handguns myself, I had the opportunity to shoot stuff with different handguns. I watched hours and hours of gel tests. And the more I studied and read, the more I realized the .45 is all bravado and hype. I've come full circle. As a grown man, I consider the .45 ACP to be the most over rated defensive or combative pistol cartridge in existence, esp when combined with the equally over rated two pound chunk of steel called the 1911. I am not impressed, and I am not a fan. When someone today tells me they carry a .45, I just roll my eyes and wait for them to tell me how much more effective it is than ________.
The Nine is fine. People forget the 9x19 is actually older than the .45. And it quickly and firmly established itself as an effective cartridge for military and police. The entire rest of the world thinks the 9mm does everything a handgun should do. And that was ninety years ago. Add advancements in bullet technology, and the supposed gap in performance between the 9mm and the .45 evaporates into almost nothing.
With today's bullet technology, people seem to be abandoning the .45 in one of two directions; most seem to gravitate like me to double-stack autos because we prefer the increased capacity and firepower, while the rest are fine with the capacity of a single-stack but prefer lighter and more concealable autos. The current crop of 9mm pocket pistols are reliable and barely larger than yesterday's .380s. Speaking of which, improved bullet technology has breathed new life into the mouse guns. Concealed carry is legal in most states and the popularity of these concealable pocket guns reflects that. The .380 is more effective than it has ever been and blessed with a better selection of autos as well.
The .45 benefits from advances in bullet technology, but it operates at much lower pressure than the 9mm. The .45 operates at 21,000 PSI in standard pressure fodder, and 23,000 PSI in +P. The 9mm operates at 35,000 PSI in standard pressure and 38,500 in +P. This means that the 9mm gets much more performance from each grain of powder in its case than the .45. The .45 just isn't a high performance cartridge and so it doesn't see nearly the gains in performance from modern ammunition that the smaller caliber rounds do.
I am still a fan of the 10mm Auto. For me, the 10mm Auto is the minimum level of performance over the 9mm that is appreciable. The 10mm, unlike the .45, operates at decent pressure, 37,500 PSI. So it can actually push a heavy for caliber JHP fast enough to get positive and consistent expansion, and deep penetration. It is the potential for penetration that appeals about the 10mm to me. A large segment of our population is overweight. A proper fighting stance furthermore puts the arms and weapon of your assailant between them and your muzzle. Add the possibility of auto glass, and 12 inches of penetration seems like a conservative minimum in ideal circumstances. Even then,if I was just carrying for defense against people, I suppose the 9mm would do what I needed it to. But I find myself hiking on a regular basis and the ability to launch a 200 gr XTP @ 1250 fps for defense and a 200 gr FMJFN at the same velocity for backcountry defense adds utility to the 10mm that the less powerful cartridges lack.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

With today's ammunition, compared to 30 years ago, there's no comparison. The 9mm has closed the gap between it and the 40 S&W. Back in 1989, when the 40 cal hit the market, it was superior to the 9mm, because the ammo was inferior, compared to what we have today. So I would go 9mm, full size, compact, or sub-compact. Its easy to shoot and you can put multiple rounds on target fast.

I own (4) 40's and I enjoy shooting them. If I were to do it all over again, I'd just go with 9mm. I can reload 9mm ammo for $12/100.

 

[bannockburn]

Still a big fan of the .45 and the 9mm. (and the .38 Super too). Tried several different guns in .40 but never found anything that I really cared about enough to keep them around. Currently my 9mm. guns out number my .45s by about 2 to 1 though I wouldn't mind adding another compact .45 (have a nice Colt Officers Model that I like to conceal carry every now and then).

 

[bikerdoc]

I am 68.
When I was young you had two choices 357 or 45. Had both.
Along come Viet Nam and an issued 1911
Get out a become a LEO and get issued a 357.
about 86, we get 9mm
They all have a place in the safe and on the hip.

 

[stoky]

40 is the most wonderful thing since the inception of the self contained cartridge.
<check today's date >

 

[Speedo66]

Old vs. new caliber wars? I thought you were talking .31, .36, and .44 vs. .32, .38, and 45.

I used a .45 in the military, and even owned one for a while. Not impressed, favored a 9mm Browning Hi-Power for the gun, the cartridge, and the capacity.